[FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

It's been a great and busy week of events! LOTS of new teams were eligible this week and we have some newcomers to the Top 25 this week.

We again had over 100 voters and we'd love it if you joined us tonight at 9PM EST to count down the results with us at the location below.

www.FRCTop25.com/watch

If you have anything you'd like to discuss tonight, post it here or send us an email, mikeandjustinitm@gmail.com

Also, please help us spread the word tonight and pack the chat! The best part of the show is the interaction with the FRC community as we reveal the Top 25.

We hope you'll join us!

You can also use this thread to discuss the results, and check back here if you missed the show to catch the archive!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

forcing technical fouls
hot goal timing isues
robots being disabled before the match timer runs out

high vs low tech scouting systems.

254s:
auto
1-43-41 picks

long (18+ feet) shooting vs close (fender) shooting.

Orlando Regional

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

In my opinion: Field issues are frustrating, its like :deadhorse: at this point, HQ seems to be addressing this issue with some level of organization and is likely to improve as the weeks go on. Ref inconsistency is well, inevitable, but is still improving.

Other topics:

• Plays that are starting to look common.
• Names for those plays.
• Its no lie that D is tough, what are the beat the D strategies looking like
• Is using basketball type terminology a good idea with this year's game:
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_positions
  • http://www.sloansportsconference.com...rch2012PPT.pdf

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Thanks for the topics guys!

We're going live in less than an hour!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

The Chief Delphi regulars of 1266 will surely be watching this episode.

EDIT: And don't think I'm not listening to your sass, mike!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Hey everyone! The archive is up at https://new.livestream.com/FRCTop25/events/2816971 in case you missed it or would like to watch again!

Thanks everyone for a great show!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Maybe I shouldn't complain since I didn't vote... but there definitely seems to be a huge bias towards the teams competing at the events with the perennially elite teams (1114, 254, 118, 148, etc.).

This definitely represents my big frustration with the FRCTop25... it's essentially just a popularity contest with a few other teams hanging onto the coat-tails of their more renowned partners/opponents. I'm guessing no one actually watches even all of the elimination rounds every weekend... the idea that these rankings are little more than "who's been good on the national stage over the last few years" is a pipe dream.

I don't think I'm over-exaggerating my own region's strength, but 177, 131, 3467, 58, 78, 319 and 195 are certainly on par with the #10-#25 teams on the list, while a fair case could certainly also be made for other New England teams like 176, 138, 236, and 230.

I'm not usually one for rants like this... but I just want to voice my opinion since I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking it. I'm in no way blaming Mike or Justin for this issue... just trying to encourage people to better educate themselves before voting... and not to take the rankings seriously.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

This. Personally, there's way too many events and robots to keep track of with the amount of time I have, and this game doesn't exactly make it easy to find the best robots on the field. My solution? I'm not voting at all this year. period. If I can't make an educated vote on who the top 25 teams are, I don't want my personal biases to possibly affect the polling of a more deserving team.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Unfortunately that's been my strategy so far this year... I barely have time enough to contribute to my own team, compete/volunteer/attend events, and squeeze in a few events worth of webcasts or recorded elims... let alone actually trying to come to some legitimate rankings.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Same here.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I'm upset to see that 1671 did not make the FRC top 25 I know I was really impressed with the team's performance.

They finished 2nd at the central valley regional, and were the only team that really challenged the poofs one on one. 973 made the top 25, but they were dead most of their matches (including the match against 254 where 1671 scored all of the points). I guess all it takes is having a number that people recognize.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

In the case of the Groton event, NEFIRST's useless archives of the live stream are not helping others see the competitions replayed. I was at the event and missed the stream itself. There are videos posted to youtube from a team member(?) that show team 1991 competing at Groton all the way to the finals. It will not matter (much) if NEFIRST corrects the archive problem because we will have moved on to weeks 3, 4, 5 by that time. The stream of the UNH event a couple of days before Groton is OK, so They probably know how archiving works, even if the actual video is a bit chaotic from a continuity standpoint. I've got my fingers crossed but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

FRCTop25 is absolutely a popularity contest, and I'm confident the voting favours my team. It's why I tried to get this started this week. Link
I had no idea 4488 existed earlier today but functionally its 610's long lost fraternal twin and they didn't make the list.
I think nominating teams that impressed you would significantly improve the show by making it easy to vote. There are too many teams and events to see everything.

Here is what I propose when the next voting thread pops up:
-If you were at an event and think a team (not yours) deserves some recognition then make a post and recognize them.
-If possible include a photo, match video, and link to social media so they can build a following.

There are amazing robots amongst us and hardworking people that designed them. They don't have to make the final 25 but they deserve to know someone saw and was impressed by their work.

*I've never voted ever because of the popularity bias.
** Try not to draw too much self worth from an online poll

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Say what you want about the rankings. After 4 years we've heard it all. However, do not attack people who actually bother vote because of your opinion of the rankings. They aren't just people trying to win a t-shirt. Some people take a lot of time and have a lot of fun with the voting. It's really uncalled for you to describe them how you did.

By not voting by virtue of a belief that it's a "popularity contest" already tells me you're taking it way too seriously. It's supposed to be a way to bring the FRC community together once a week and have some fun. Nothing more.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I was more inflammatory then I needed to be but I feel my vote would contribute to it becoming a popularity contest because I don't watch many matches outside my geographic area.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

On behalf of my team, I just wanted to say that reading this made me feel warm and fuzzy inside! A shoutout from a team like yours blows our minds. I'll also mention that I love your robot's feeder arms this year and your release video was awesome. Best of luck to you guys!

And I apologize for the plug, but for those of you who don't know team 4488 Shockwave, we just released our reveal video here.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

One thing about this that I have always been adamant for is that everyone needs to vote. If you have a Canada bias and you don't vote fine. But then what happens to the votes of the Michigan bias person that just did vote?
If everyone were to vote independent of their bias in a perfect world we would see pretty equally represented regions.

As an aside 177 was only 100pts away from 25th. 131 was 150pts, 3467 was 250pts. Thats not that many points away. 177 only appeared on 14 ballots thought. The lowest team in the top 25 appeared on 20.

Bottom line is there's no way to make everyone happy. Thats one of the down falls of a fan vote. I mean I hate that the cat won the monopoly token vote but there's nothing I can do, the fans voted that way.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

3D printing changes the whole Monopoly game! I can make whatever token (robot, gargoyle, yoda, spock, gerbil) I want AND I have a bunch of secret, extra houses and hotels that I don't have to buy. :D

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Patrick, where did you get the full rankings?

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Mike, I help Mike and Justin with the show. And one of the things I do is manage most of the voting system. We chose not to publish complete voting results because of the possibility of arguments that could ensue with teams saying that they should be above another.

If you'd like to have some more discussion about this feel free to PM me.

As Justin says after each show if you want to know where your team finished send us an email.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Yup. All it takes ;)

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Yes the show has always been a popularity contest but it needs to be remembered that it's just for fun.

I personally don't vote because I don't feel I watch enough matches to have a valid list but some people study and work hard on their selections and I don't want to delete their efforts with my uninformed opinions.

Here's a way to possibly change things a bit. If you see a team with an outstanding performance that you think should be recognized, when this thread appears on CD post about them. Include video links if you can.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

It is good to hear you admit that Adam :)

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I don't want to veer off-topic, as this would be much more appropriate for the CVR thread, but I felt it needs to be said.

They were certainly not dead during the elimination rounds where they proved themselves to be the optimal partner for a robot that specializes in finishing cycles.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Unfortunately I lack access to my reaction image library, but I think this can be illustrated solely with text:

THE POINT
------------
YOUR HEAD

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

There were many teams that attended CVR that should have been in the top 25. Look at 1323 they started slow but have an amazing shooter and truss shot, and ended up finishing in 4th. 973 was dead for many matches and was 2-9 in qualifications. It is also difficult because I have seen kids from 1671 work really hard this year. They managed to win with a Dean's list finalist, the Chairman's award, and made it to the finals. In qualifications they had the same record as 254.
The match that is being referred too in several threads and media was when 1671 was partnered with 973 and scored all of the points in the match and we almost beat 254. Just is sad to see these kids work so hard, and 973 is getting most of the credit for that match.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Why don't you just be proud of how hard your kids worked and how well they did instead of trying to bring down another team and make it sound like they didn't work as hard as you and don't deserve what they got as much as you do?

Perhaps that's not what you mean to say, but that's what comes across. I would expect that a team that obviously "gets it" (based on your RCA win) would not be so concerned about using an arbitrarily assigned metric for judging their team worth.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Don't get worked up about an online poll. There's no need to downplay the accomplishments of others.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I would not worry too much about a fun poll. You guys have a good robot check out this post:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...56&postcount=1

Clearly you did well in all 3 categories in California rankings. If California was district based, you would be cruising into state champs with a ton of points. FRC25 is for fun, i would not worry about it. Plus you won the regional chairman, so you get to go to champ as a pretty sweet dark horse. If you continued to not get noticed enough, maybe you will get to be like 973 in 2011 and form a perfect alliance.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

In my honest opinion, I disagree with this statement. To be ranked in the FRCtop25 your team should not only be in the 99.99% percentile of all robots competing, but should also display the ability to finish a regional. Teams that do not finish as at least finalist should hardly be considered within the best 25 teams.

There is more to ranking a team than just the quality of their robot. Their ability to scout and pick effective alliances, execute well thought out strategies, and win games should be factored in as well.

An excellent example of a team who did not belong among the top 25 last year was my own team 624. We had an excellent robot which would easily rank among the top 25 robots, but when it came to actually finishing a regional we could not. 624 never even made it to the finals last year which made me question how people actually rank teams within the top 25.

It should be as simple as ranking teams in college football. Yes there will be teams who get in purely based on popularity. However, if those teams do not display the ability to win games, then they quickly find themselves outside of the top 25. To make it on my own ballot a team simply needs to do one thing, win.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I am not putting down any team, if it came off that way I am sorry.
Thank you everyone for the nice messages you have been sending me privately. Glad to see I am not the only one seeing this.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

There's nothing wrong with the top 25 voting, but it really is a popularity contest. Without looking, who can name two robots who played in the finals at CVR or Alamo? I'd bet most can name at least a few. What about Groton, or Gull Lake? You can't vote for teams you've never seen.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

You need to be in about the top 0.1% to be in the FRC Top 25, based on number of teams this year.


Here's a few statistics
Last year, there were 25 teams that won their first two regionals.
Last year, there were 63 teams that had 4 or less losses in their first two regionals.
Last year, there were 113 teams that won at least one regional as alliance captain, or first pick.
This year, there have been 26 events so far, so there have been 78 regional champions, 52 as alliance captain or first pick.
This year, there have been 36 teams that have won multiple judged awards at a regional.

It's only going to get harder to be in the top 25. Even if there were perfect voters, there are a lot of amazing teams that won't be in the top 25.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Why did you have to go and bring statistics into this?

Seriously great way to prove the point here Joe.

Just remember the 16 teams that make Einstein this year represent .04% of the teams that QUALIFY for Championship, or roughly .005% of all FIRST teams this year.

When you throw perspective on how big an accomplishment it is to even be mentioned you should realize how difficult it is to get mentioned.

Also if you disagree with your ranking prove them wrong.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Which is why I get PUMPED for my kids when they make the Top 25 :)

Jon, everyone sees it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to get any less excited about it. This is a huge encouragement to my kids, to be recognized for all their hard work on an international stage is something to be proud of. I hope it doesn't take away from your students' experience, they have a lot to be proud of as well!

-Mike

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Michael, seeing 1678 up there is awesome. I am always really impressed with your team and you guys have very great students. We are usually right next to you guys in Davis and everyone is very nice. 1678 is one of my favorite teams now.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I'm still trying to figure out what in my post you disagree with because other than saying you disagree nothing else in your statement in contradicting what I said.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

I do think it is a bit ridiculous that some are upset at the fact that their team didn't make the Top 25. We all need to realize that these rankings are not 100% based off statistical data.

The only real time where this voting was near true was back in 2011 when there was another set of anonymous voters who analyzed the pool of robots that could be picked for that week. These individuals are not only much more competent than some voting but they also had tangible data to back them up.

I don't think a popularity based vote identifies the capability of a single teams robot. Now if people could prove me wrong and show me the data they used to generate their team list that would be reasonable. However, I don't view the FRC Top 25 as a viable ranking for robots and neither should anyone else.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

We have OPR and Elo (I can run this if anybody wants me to) available, if you want more objective rankings...

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Not that I need it for any reason, but coming from a chess background it would be kinda cool to see ELO ratings.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

People need to keep in mind, FRC Top 25 is not like the normal NCAA top 25. For that, there is a much smaller amount of teams, compared to the incredibly large amount that are selected from in FRC. It is a fun thing that brings people together. I've honestly always watched over these past four ears for the discussion about he game and strategy foremost. It is also interesting to hear about the different teams that make it every week as there are always at least a few teams I've never heard much about and I slowly over time learn about more teams. That is what people should take out of the show, not who was ranked XX instead of being XX. This isn't the BCS rankings (and thank god for that, as I'm sure some of us know how much of a disaster that is) so we should not treat it as such.

Bottom line, enjoy the conversation, learn about some teams every week you don't know about, and check out the info available on the website.

-Nick

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Week 2 Results LIVE tonight!
 

Take a look at what 3824 is doing. They have a new sponsor, Local Motors, because of what they're doing with 3D printers.