Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

Yes.

If you can't remember to bring your 45 pounds of spare parts with you into the pits (leave it at your school 1000 miles away, at the airport, on your trailer, whatever) then you deserve to suffer the consequences of your oversight. Hopefully you will learn from it.

All international teams and any team that has to ship their robot and supplies (Hawaii) rather than trailer them have been dealing with this for years. I fail to see how requiring local teams to conform to the same conditions (you forget your stuff then you don't have it - duh) is "punishment".

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

1. This wasn't a rule until 12 hours ago.

2. Why? Why is this such an essential part of the FIRST experience? If you really wanna make the international team argument, just replace "a box at the shop" with "a box outside of the venue door". Please, justify this. And when a team breaks a part they left in their van, why don't you go be the person who gives them the lecture about how they shouldn't have forgotten the part and now their drivetrain shouldn't work all competition. Or we could put aside this silliness and let them go get the part they intended to bring in.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

Per Al's inspction thread:

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

The specific verbiage that your 45 lbs is defined at the time you load in never existed until now.

During load in we only bring in the robot and a few essential items for setting up our pit, because we would have no room to setup the pit with all our parts. We bring in all our parts Thursday morning upon opening of the pits.

This is technically illegal now, while logically completely reasonable.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

If you are only bringing the pit set up on load in (plus robot) and bringing rest of tools and parts in the next day I would talk to the lead inspector and he would probably allow it on the basis of that is your load in. I can't speak for other LRIs but in the right circumstance I would allow it. That said, if you bring tools and COTS parts etc to load in then I would say bring in all of your stuff. The early load in is so that teams are not having to drag everything through the pits while team members and spectators are present.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

This discussion, and this build season, has me even more inclined to say that we should

(a) eliminate the withholding allowance altogether (so nothing but COTS into the venue unless it's in the bag, much as it used to be; or perhaps exempt only bumpers and control system components like the cRio),

OR

(b)eliminate stop build day and let teams bring whatever they want into the venue.

Under the current rules, trying to compete at the elite level means a practice robot and no end to build season anyway, so all of my concerns about mentor burnout and student grade collapse don't matter as long as there's a withholding allowance. Were there none (option a), then you could have a practice robot and practice, but there'd be no need for the punishing build season schedule between stop build day and competition(s). Were there no stop build day and no limits on what you can bring in (option b), then you'd still be crushed under the grueling schedule, but you'd save a lot of money, waste many fewer resources, and have many more competitive robots.

...though you'd likely have fewer teams, as more and more mentors would realize that they just can't do it.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

Some events only allow a few (4) individuals at the initial load-in. It may be difficult for some teams to carry in all the required withholding parts plus robot (plus bumpers and batteries and chargers and other key pit setup materials) with only four people.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

The R18 change messes up something my team has been doing for a while. We feel that it is critical that every team at an event should be able to pass inspection and compete. Often time rookie teams show up and are overweight or their robots simply don't work. Our team members fan out and help these teams reconfigure or rebuild their bots. Last year at the North Carolina regional we showed up with a trailer full of parts, we used these parts to help a total of 20 team's robots get though inspection and compete. My team feels that it is more inspirational to actually be able to compete but this rule does not allow us to help other teams by giving them spare parts. At the end of the North Carolina regional last year, the trailer we brought with us was completely empty. We are happy to give away these parts and feel that the most important part of FIRST is inspiring struggling teams. I feel bad for any teams that are no longer able to compete because an important part of their robot broke and they don't have any spares.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

COTS parts, or FABRICATED ITEMS?

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

I would tend to disagree here. Not having to build two robots to be competitive would certainly decrease the stress on myself. Plus actually showing up to thursday with a robot ready to run would be a huge improvement versus the current system of showing up on thursday ready to make all the changes developed with the practice robot. Plenty of teams already get some of this benefit with the district system and being able to work on there robot in the shop for 6 hours at a time.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

I would opt for option A.

But I'm probably in the minority here.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

I think the options presented above are a false dichotomy. There is one extremely simple solution that nobody has mentioned that makes everyone happy. Have no bag, but have the first regional start at the end of Week 6 or 7 of build season. Everyone who feels burned out without a bag day and wants to stop working can just go to Week 1 or Week 2 regionals. Everyone who wants to work longer can go to later regionals. If you're in Districts, with unbag time and the Championship at the end you already "had to" keep working to be competitive - and you can still choose to work less hard after your first event if that really bothers you.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

The material we kept in the trailer fell into two categories.

1. COTS: old (legal) motors from previous KoP and robots, control system components, gears, Etc.

Odd Stock: Various lengths of channel, angle, PVC, old AM and IFI framing kits, wire, Lexan,

We would literally have runner going out to the trailer and grabbing material as it was needed. Boy has it been needed!

We also come in with 3-4 sets of bumper materials, Pre-cut and ready to go. We all love the folks who forget their bumpers :-)

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

You should still be able to continue this awesome practice, because none of the items you mentioned fall under the 45lb witholding allowance that is subject to the new load-in rules. The only place you would possibly have an issue is if some of the material you are using as "odd stock" is considered a "Fabricated Item", but everything you listed sounds like it doesn't fall under that category.

Re: Game Manual - Team Update - 2014-03-11
 

Of course that's not true, if your local regional doesn't happen to be week 1 or 2.