Definition of a Pin
 

Question removed.

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

"G29
An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) ft. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitive through other objects.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL


If the pinned ROBOT chases the pinning ROBOT upon retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized per G29, and the pin will be considered complete."

"Pinning, the effect of certain weapons that cause their targets to be pinned down"

""Pinned down" is a common military term for a unit that is being suppressed by enemy fire.[1] A suppressed unit has lost its ability to move, lost all or most of its ability to return fire, and lost much of its ability to gather real-time intelligence on the enemy position, as it is concerned with staying under cover.
Suppression is a key tactical goal utilized in most small unit tactics and will afford the attacking (or suppressing) unit with greater security of movement, intelligence, and tactical flexibility. Often, a suppressed unit will lose organizational efficiency and morale if kept in that state for an extended period of time."

ie an immobile robot

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

Q56
Q.G29 What is the definition of pin? Is a robot pinned when it is being pushed i.e. moving but not where
it wants to go? Is a robot pinned only when it is immobilized i.e. not moving?
A.In the absence of a formal FRC definition, a general definition of term is implied. Pin means to hold fast
in a spot or position. If a ROBOT can move, even if not in its desired direction, it is not considered
pinned.

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

I believe the match the OP refers to is here: http://youtu.be/OyZ-i7OYDZA

I copied G29 here for reference.

G29 An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) ft. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitive through other objects.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

If the pinned ROBOT chases the pinning ROBOT upon retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized per G29, and the pin will be considered complete.

I wanted to get some feedback from other folks here on CD about pinning because 3669 is essentially immobilized by 1619 the entire match.

From 1:00 to 1:08 3669 is clearly held in place against the goal and cannot move. I do not know why the counting for pinning was not initiated.

Some of the time I do believe is not pinning because 3669 pushes back. If 3669 had let themselves be pushed into the wall or goal I believe the pinning count should have started. If someone could clarify that would be helpful.

Some could argue that at various times when 1619 backs up that 3669 chases, but in most of those cases, 3669 is going in the only direction it can go with a tank drive.

Our Team (1410) actually captained the blue alliance in the video (we were off the field for this particular match because our cRio died and had already used our sub) When we talked to the refs after the match, they said that since it was not against a wall that it was not a pin.

I believe that immobilizing a robot in the corner wall between the goal and alliance wall it is the same as “trapping” from G12 (i.e. two robots blocking access to an opposing ball in a corner but not touching it are essentially denying access to said ball).

If a robot can’t get out because driving the direction their wheels are pointed would be “chasing” then the pinning robot should still need to back up the required 6 feet IMO. Overall I think the intent of G29 is to allow a short pin but not allow a robot to be taken out of an entire match by pinning

There is at least one technical foul for pinning if the match that was not called. Since the refs did not start counting we will never know if 1619 would have backed off and the game would have gone differently.

-matto-

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

Are we watching the same movie? It's not clear at all to me that they're pinned against the goal. It looks instead like the blue robot (sorry, I can't ID the numbers) spent the entire time in a pushing match, not necessarily a case of being pinned. (A word to the wise: Getting in a pushing match is a lose-lose situation. Avoid them if at all possible.)

If they're NOT against the wall (or another robot), it's NOT a pin. If they'd let themselves be pushed into the wall, and the pin count had not started, you'd have had a pretty valid complaint to the head ref and the corner ref about no pinning call (the ref did appear to be watching, and he was a foul-calling ref).

What about a spin? Tank drives do turn. But yes, there is a definite chase appearance. Thus, any pin counts are canceled.

And that is how the call is supposed to be made. If it isn't against a field element (in this game, goals and walls) or another robot, it's NOT a pin.

No, it is NOT. Do not compare apples and oranges. Try "blockading" (G25)--but that applies to two robots working together, not to one. A robot that is merely trapped similar to how you think is not necessarily pinned--a field element or another robot is required.

Nope, that's not how it works. Just about every other team in this game uses tank drive. If the robot had TURNED and tried to go in another direction instead of getting locked in a pushing match, you might have an argument, but instead they got locked in a pushing match.

I also note that once a ref DID start a count, the red robot took off in another direction at full speed.


In short, no pins until the ref started counting, due to the chase (or perceived chase) and the pushing match being apparently just off the goal instead of against it. Take a good look at the Q&A in the post just above yours--if that blue robot could move, it was not pinned. No 6' backoff required, no tomahawk count, no pinning fouls.

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

The video isn't great (we borrowed an old camera from the school) so I am relying on my human player who was 5 feet away from it. He said it was a pin.

We did mecanums this year so we can get out of most pins. I can't tell how much 3669 can maneuver with a tank when squeezed into a corner.

My point is that there is place between the goal and the alliance wall (robot at 45 degree angle to alliance wall) which a bot can be pushed into that they can't get out of without "chasing" if they have a tank

I agree they should have let themselves be pushed more instead of fighting and the pinning count would have started.

-matto-

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

And the ref said it wasn't. Unless your human player also happens to be an FRC ref, I'm inclined to believe the ref. For one thing, he was about 3 feet away--and he was looking at it.

Again, a pushing match is not a pin, unless one of the robots is against a wall, goal, or robot (or other field element, in years with other field elements) and cannot move. In such cases, the ref will start the pin count. If such is not the case, the other team can hold you just about indefinitely.

Re: Definition of a Pin
 

Please don't do this type of editing, CD is an archive of FIRST discussion and even years from now threads can be useful and interesting. By doing this you make the thread very hard to read if not totally useless.

I suggest adding a line "Edit: Question answered" to the end of the original post if you feel the need.