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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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This isn't just trying to be pedantic. Many people have already witnessed completely contradictory and inconsistent rulings when it comes to physical contact this year. You have teams intentionally flipping other teams without penalty at one regional, and then you have teams getting called for Tech Fouls because an opponent's intake fell off when they hit the field barrier at another. (Even before this update). And then you have all of the missed assists because refs are too busy entering scores, watching human players, and trying to get the defensive calls right. Now you have all of the new gray areas being thrown into the mix. Yes, there are cases where "high-speed aggressive ramming" is clear as day. But there are plenty of other big collisions that occur naturally between teams acting in good faith, and you have normal defensive contact that results in damaged robots due to bad luck or poor construction. How will these be called? The NHL has had rules against boarding for a long time, and there are still controversial calls and tweaks to the rule from time to time (there was a major one in 2011). But tens of thousands of NHL games called by a fairly small group of professional referees have established precedent for how the foul is generally called. We are halfway through the FRC season and have a much larger pool of volunteer referees... |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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It seems to me the point of this update is to solve this problem. Many teams aren't capable of making a sturdy bot (as already discussed). I've never had one of my robots be totaled, but I can only imagine how heartbreaking that would be. 6 weeks destroyed by a single hit. With the carnage of this year's game, it seems to me that the GDC is trying to protect weak bots, not shut down the strong ones! Now of course it would be great if every single robot was an invincible tank, but that isn't the case. From the general attitude in this thread it seems that most of the people in FRC have pretty robust robots, but some teams just don't. I don't like the update, because it negates a lot of the abilities our robot has. And yet... I kind of agree with it, because I've seen way too much carnage in the past few weeks and it needs to stop. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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I've had robots I've spent 6 weeks on fail miserably. I learned from the experience. It was clear this was going to be a rough game; you cannot make it a not-rough game without choking it with penalties and forcing drivers to actively avoid contact, which is a terrible idea. I will tell you that as a drive coach, it is very possible that this rule will be enforced in a way which will force me to advise our drivers to sit still and try not to touch anyone when they don't have the ball, or else do something completely benign and nearly useless like camping in front of the low goal. It is impossible to play active defense with a strong drive without having the risk of hitting another robot with a considerable amount of force. That is the nature of FRC; these are 150lb machines with north of 2 hp in drive power. If you did not build your machine to be able to withstand contact from another such machine, how is that any different than failing to build a shooter that shoots the ball, or a drive that drives? Perhaps we ought to remove the scoring, because it's unfair to robots that are unable to do it? Of course, if a team shows up with a non-functional robot, I will do everything in my power to help them get it to a functional state and put it on the field. That is the spirit of gracious professionalism, and the competition demands it. Gracious professionalism should not, however, demand that everyone instead work around the fact that their robot is non-functional. For example, if a team's battery mount is haphazard, the onus on other teams is to help them improve it, not to go out of their way to avoid hitting them in matches because it might fall off. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
The matches I've watched at Waterloo have had some mild collisions/defense and no penalties have been called in the matches I've seen.
I've heard (in the Waterloo thread) it did cause one of 2056's alliances to lose with 70 pts of penalties. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I can live with the "high speed or repeated ramming" foul. Effective defenders get in your way as opposed to trying to beat you up, so that part of the update doesn't seem wholly unreasonable to me. Obviously, it will be a game-destroying rule if the referees are overeager to call it at the slightest hint of contact.
The "gameplay resulting in damage to opponent robots" foul is pretty problematic. Now it's an advantage if your robot can visibly fall apart after minor contact in order to draw fouls. |
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Is this now repeated ramming? |
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If they are going to actually enforce this new rule then they need to put a speed limit out and inspect to it. Otherwise it is way too subjective and open to such "gaming" of the system as mentioned above. I really don't want to see the last minute truss shot to win a close game turn into a last minute "possum" play to win a game that is nowhere near close. |
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I've been streaming pretty much every event today (two prep periods, and then a half day where I get to work on the syllabus for my new AP Physics 1 course--so I've got two computers up and am game-hopping while I work), and if anything I've observed fewer fouls, better games, and still a decent amount of pushing and shoving defense being played.
The sky is still where it is; it has not fallen. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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But it's not like looking out for Ramming/aggressive play is an ADDITIONAL responsibility to what the referees are already looking out for - they're already looking at G27's. This is a clarification on what constitutes overaggressiveness, and more flexibility to the refs on the penalties handed out for G27. And this amendment doesn't come out of thin air, it's clearly coming from the Head Ref call this week, with head refs being frustrated at not being able to stop the flow of drivers to their "?" box complaining about overaggressive defense (in addition to the missed assists & incorrect scores). I'm always pleased to see FIRST react to situations in the field & make changes instead of ignoring them. See my whitepaper for some more of my thoughts. |
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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Everyone knows eliminations is another can of worms, and it is also when the games start to really "count". That is when teams drive their robots like they stole them because it is better to leave it on the field then lose because you didn't play hard enough. This is also when the refs start to get worn out and the chances of mistakes start to really swing games. Subjective judgement gets foggier as you get burned out. |
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
As of lunchtime at Buckeye G27 has not been called.
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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Those with better knowledge feel free to correct/amend/fill in the story. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
According to the Head Ref at Traverse City, this rule update just allows the referees to call fouls on heavy defense that causes major damage, and doesn't fall into any other foul.
Everyone is overreacting. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I agree, I think everyone is overreacting. I didn't watch every match at the Wisconsin Regional today, but the game play generally seemed better and I did not see any over abundance of "ramming" calls though there were definitely robot parts on the field. (Our Axis camera got destroyed one match).
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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Thats not his fault, every ref at an event will call stuff differently. Although, this is not the end of the world. Its not being called unfairly, in fact, its barely being called at all, and I'm fine with that. The update encourages teams to at least be more careful. |
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I'm not sure which competitions some of you are reviewing. If you're concerned about a bit of high speed defense, you're missing the bigger picture. Last week saw some "defense" that was clearly attempting to overturn or disable an opponent by repeated, aggressive ramming. That's just not right, in the context of FRC, and it seems that the GDC is making a statement to that effect.
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
According to the refs at Lenape, this foul is going to be called as "no harm, no foul". Don't know how that'll work, we'll see tomorrow when we get some actual matches in.
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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I do not think one single team has gone out for a match with the express intent to break someone else's robot. Of course, robots do get broken--particularly under-engineered ones, or because of accidents (such as intakes inside other robots). Everybody is right. This is not Battlebots, and I am certain nobody pretends it is, but that does not mean it is BEST (with zero robot contact allowed). The bumpers are there for a reason, and that reason is because this is a contact sport. Also, comparing this game to any other sport (hockey, football, American football, lacrosse, or anything else) cannot be accurately done. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
1 step forward...2 steps back. I would be glad I stayed home this weekend (avoiding showing my displeasure or any non-GP in front of students or anyone else), except the link to my teams Regional event from FIRSThas yet to even work at all today, concerning the standings & schedule.
So looking up where the team is in the standings at any time today, was totally impossible on the web, without bothering my scouting Wife via text or phone, who is super busy as always. And the link to the streaming video didn't even work until game #21 (Thank You theredalliance.com for finding a valid link, much appreciated here. And, whoever is posting the vids to YouTube though they are also very much appreciated, & much better quality than the actual stream, doesn't stay on long enough to record any of the final scores (or any of those important penalties assessed), on even 1 of the vids, and on the stream of course, commercials always interrupt the stream at just the absolute wrong moment for sure. A tough day all around I'd say. 8th isn't bad for the amount of no shows they were force to not play with. Tons of short handed matches today for sure. And needless to say, I was lost all day...Thank goodness those little current seeding #'s were there next to the team #'s....I could at least somewhat tell something, when those went up or down the next match they played (much later though), whether they won or lost or tied the previous match. Sure wish I had high blood pressure normally, so at least I'd have some medicine to take right now. Lol. I don't disagree w/ the actual call of "less battle bots" and more FIRST Robotics update (except another subjective call added in that absolutely...nobody needed one more of those in this game...Especially the ref's). Penalties overall seemed a bit lower thanks to TUESDAY's changes though, and the Ref. assistants seemed to help quite a bit....Some even hit balls back onto the field personally & repeatedly protecting the fancy pads they were operating...LOL. (You can trash any actual season points rating system if keeping track though, meaningless with all the existing changes now). anyone who is relying on one, is lying only to themselves. It is the timing (announced while some are on the road traveling to a place w/ no real net access...Surprise! We changed things, let us tell you about it in the driver's meeting), of the actual change that really bothers me (personally, I don't care though...I'm not actually playing the game myself)....As long as they keep changing everything daily, and weekly (whether I personally like or don't like the changes matters very little), like this, it will be a completely different game by the time the Championships get here. Of course nobody will remember exactly what the rules of the game really are...But, who really does now anyway? (Dead ball card...what is that really, except a 1 minute or so wall decoration, that isn't often seen?) 2 ball Auto...Nobody really cares if you have 2 balls contacting your robot to start....Their minds are no doubt elsewhere, trying to keep those penalties straight. Are all the (truss crossing), 180 degree "wrong way auto's", I have seen so far, really NOT intentional? (can we allow them a rule change to put "FRONT" or "Point This Way!" on the front bumper please?) And I thought our team was confused when we built a bot that picks up on one end shoots out the other! And how about all those sadly missed auto balls (But, why don't we truss it anyway just to see what happens), or are they just meaningless practice shots to burn up more time for no gain? I'm beginning to wonder if it was only the adults who read the rules fully this year. Or are we only the confused ones. Maybe they changed that "Auto ball leftover," earns absolutely no truss points rule too, and they only told the students. Guess I'll go read the rules again...Nahhhhh. Not happening. Good Luck Teams! |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I haven't seen any rampant robot destruction or resulting penalties at AZ, but I haven't had a chance to see all of the matches. Our "damage prone" grabby mechanism is safely intact after a day of qualifications! We'll see how elimination matches play out tomorrow...
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
We got the ONLY G27 call all of Friday at la while playing offense under double defense.
It's a bit ridiculous. |
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Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
I agree that the rule may be subject to abusive calling, like many others in this game, however imagine this:
A robot is performing its part in a cycle when suddenly it is rammed by an opposing robot from a high velocity. That robot, for whatever reason, loses communication. All of the sudden you have a dead ball and one less alliance partner for some time during the match. For us, it was a matter of electronics rather than metal. Something completely out of our control even though we built a fairly tough robot and secured electronics well. So while, no, I'd rather not encourage the rising foul points awarded, there is merit to preventing overly aggressive gameplay. Defense is integral to Aerial Assist, but not damage. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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Defense is part of every game ever played. Having said that, I have watched as robots travel from the Red zone, through the White, into the Blue to ram an opponent in the process of making a shot into the high goal. No attempt to slow down or minimize the impact ever made, sometimes completely disabling the opponent, and no foul was called. This situation, in my opinion, was why the rule was adjusted. FIRST made adjustments to the possession of an opponents ball inconsequential vs consequential) that were necessary to the flow of the game. I saw this being called correctly at many venues. I don't understand why ramming with the intent to damage is not called more often. |
Re: Unscheduled Team Update: 3-20-2014
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