Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Over six years of attending FRC events as a spectator, and now four as a team member, I, and other FRC team members I know, have had safety inspectors ask us to switch out our lightly reflective (they're not like sunglasses) safety glasses for non-reflective ones. FRC's guidelines on the matter:

What is the reasoning behind the illegality of reflective safety glasses? I've heard reasons ranging from "we must be able to see where you're looking when pushing a robot cart" (seems a little ridiculous to me) and "If you're hurt, the paramedics will need to be able to see your eyes" (if this is the case, why couldn't they just remove the safety glasses?). I must be missing something.

What do you think? Is there a very good reason or explanation that I'm missing? Do you agree with this rule? If you were in charge of FIRST safety guidelines, would you keep this guideline in the books?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I had this rule pulled on me at Orlando. I'm just an alumni mentor now(I visited the team a few times this year and went to competition); I really didnt have much to do when in the pits more than just getting a few things and pretty much walking around and looking at other robots. I really didnt see the need for my safety glasses to not be tinted. I think this rule is ridiculous for non-drive team members of teams or anyone that goes to the pits.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

As an LRI I find it necessary to be able to see people's eyes. I agree with FIRST on this one. People communicate through verbal, body language and eye contact. You may not think it is important but it is one of the tools we use to make sure that people are listening and understanding.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I don't think we are talking about some kind of FBI/ CIA blackout shades or one way mirrors here. I had this pulled on me during Orlando this year with safety glasses that where not even reflective beyond the point of creating a glint under field lighting.

The point is if a light tint is acceptable to prevent lights from getting in your eyes then I think a slightly reflective surface should also be acceptable.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

The rules are you must be able to see your eyes. That way it takes out the guess work of if the reflective glasses are dark or light.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

This isn't an unusual restriction. Every industrial workplace I've visited has had the same restriction. Mirrored and tinted safety glasses are designed for outdoor use, not indoors.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Observe the CD safety smiley: ::safety:: Tinted glasses, with eyeballs visible.

One of my favorite aspects of the rule is that it keeps people who are trying to look cool by wearing tinted glasses from looking like fools for wearing outdoor gear indoors. (I don't recommend wearing parkas or bathing suits into the pit area, either.) Many FRC rules are there to HELP teams, remember. I think there is also a rule about having appropriate team logos and such. It just contributes to an overall more professional appearance for the event, which benefits all the teams.

There is also the simple fact that when working indoors we generally need MORE photons hitting our eyeballs, rather than fewer, particularly for close-up or detailed work. Here's a good summary of illumination levels http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...oms-d_708.html

If I had to rewrite the rule, though, I'd get rid of the exceptions for lightly tinted glasses unless medically necessary. Clear safety glasses are more than adequate for indoor use.

Jason

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I could see if you were a driver or stood in a robots field of view their lights could reflect and it could possibly fool the targeting system (or whatever the team uses camera for). But just in the pits I don't know why you can't wear them.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

But is this a good enough reason to tell teams who have already purchased 50 slightly reflective safety glasses that they aren't allowed to use them? It seems just a little ridiculous.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Are you really asking if the existence of a rule against them is a good enough reason to keep them from being used?

Teams who buy things prohibited by the rules should not be allowed to ignore the rule just because they ignored the rule and bought something prohibited by the rules.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

While I agree with you primarily, I disagree about disallowing lightly tinted glasses. A couple years back, Team 2220 was given a large amount of safety glasses that had blue tinted lenses. Not only were they as easy to work in as our clear glasses, but they also looked good with our team colors and let us distinguish ourselves from other teams.

I get the rules against reflective glasses (for reasons that have previously been brought forth), but I think that lightly tinted glasses are a good way of giving a team a little bit more spirit while keeping them safe. Plus, in my experience, kids like to wear safety glasses that look cool over safety glasses that look "normal." I think we had less kids forgetting their glasses that year that we ever had before, which saved us a lot of hassle at competition!

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

My problem with this rule is not more so the fact that you can't have them. My problem the fact that I have actually been to an event where I was told to remove the glasses I had (understandable, but I grabbed what I could), then the Head Ref at said event was wearing heavily tinted glasses.

I was bothered in the sense that the Safety Judges/Competition personnel actually didn't enforce this among everyone who attended the event, volunteer, or spectator.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Thank you. I think the real question is, "Why do you need those slightly reflective glasses?" Is it image?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

The answer is that you don't (although I'm relatively confident that anyone would argue that reflective safety glasses are better than no safety glasses).

Aesthetics can come at a cost, but that cost should never be safety.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Could it be that they don't want to confuse them with non-rated sunglasses? If you let it go tinted and/or reflective, then people could wear sunglasses and claim they are safety glasses, and it would result in a lot of debate. Just a thought.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Rookies. I'd be fairly impressed if every rookie team (specifically the member of the rookie team who orders the glasses) has read the administrative manual before ordering the glasses.

Also, as long as the rule is in place, teams who aren't in the situation above should follow it. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that the rule should be changed, because it seems like it has the potential to do harm and not that much good.

There's a differencing between forcing teams to wear safe, family friendly attire and forcing them to wear attire that makes them look "more professional."

Edit: although, trying to see the other side of the argument, maybe it is so that safety inspectors/ a team's mentors can know that you are actually focusing on your work and self-aware when you are walking down aisles. That would cause some safety issues, and is a valid argument to keep this rule in place.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Our team was given a donation of lightly mirrored glasses this year. We understood, given the wording of the manual, that this COULD be an issue for team and thus came prepared to competition this weekend. I believe it was limited only to the over-the-glasses safety glasses. I don't have a picture, but when I say lightly mirrored, it was sort of a mirror at the top that gradually faded out. Eyes are VERY visible when talking face to face.

Sure enough, several team members were not allowed into the pit with them this weekend. The reasoning from the safety judges, however, it what gets me. The safety judge said "I can see my lips in your glasses." What does that have to do with anything??? I can see myself in the reflection of ANY GLASSES, safety or otherwise, mirrored or not.

If there's a valid reason for disallowing something, that's fine and great and I'm all for it. But when the people enforcing the rule can't give that reason, there is a fundamental flaw.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

What if...hypothetically, of course, a team's Human Player used reflective safety glasses to protect his (or her) eyes from the bright vision tracking light?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I think the rule is poorly considered. We still have to follow it. The people enforcing the rules are not the ones that created them. It is not their job to justify them.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

That's like saying a police officer can enforce a law without telling who he is arresting what crime they have committed because he doesn't know what the law is.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

"Take off those glasses because tinted glasses are not allowed."

How are those two scenarios even at all similar?

It's like a police officer arresting someone for speeding but not knowing why speeding is a law.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Yeah that's what I meant to say, sorry for the confusion.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I am not sure I understand your logic. It more like the police officer enforcing a law without knowing the reason behind the law. Somebody correctly says reflective safety glasses are against the rules, take them off. They don't need to know why they are against rules.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I'm a little confused by this entire thread. Rules are "no tinted safety glasses." Nobody cares if you bought a trailer load, you can't wear them in the pits / field / etc. Give them to your fans and they will enter in FIRST history along with Moe Sticks, Daisy Daisys hats, Rolling Thunder Camo, Pink's Pink, Bacons Pigs, Sabotage Vests, etc. etc.

Rules, no matter how stupid, are rules. Follow them without question. Works for FIRST and will work for your next stop with the police. Welcome to my world!

Three pages of posts? Really?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

So you are ok with those who are supposed to uphold said laws/rules and those in power to break those laws/rules?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

And if the driver said, "I've never been in an accident while speeding, so the rule shouldn't apply to me," would the officer's argument be moot? Should we wait until a documented event of someone getting injured because their glasses prevented a second person from noticing that they weren't looking up?

I don't think so. The bar has to be set somewhere, and FIRST evidently decided that lenses with a coating to increase the natural reflectiveness of the surface would make it unnecessarily difficult for volunteers and teammates to see your eyeballs, and for you to see well enough in the pit/competition areas to avoid hazards. Volunteers can't walk around with reflective-coated safety glass sample swatches to compare to you glasses all day.

Perhaps you can lobby FIRST to expand the rule and list only specific brands and models of glasses that will be allowed, like they do with batteries?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

You obviously never seen policemen drive. :)

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

That was the "law" part of my statement.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I use Oakley flak jackets as my safety glasses. Originally I was using tinted because that is what they come with but after someone pointing it out at a regional I have since bought new clear lenses. Is ANSI Z87.1 good enough?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Reflective glasses have been an issue for many years.

Our team had problems with the lightly reflective tinted glasses a few years ago during Lunacy. That was the year that the glare from the field made it difficult to see the robot for the drive team. We found these wonderful safety glasses to use and received a description from the manufacturer which described them as anti-glare tint rather than reflective. And yes you could see our eyes. We used them for two regionals without a problem and actually got kudos from the safety advisors on the amount of research we had put into the selection of our team safety glasses. However the story took an ugly twist at Champs. The safety advisors rejected our safety glasses for use in the pit. We could wear them walking to the pit, but if you were in the 10x10 square, they had to be clear. We didn't own clear. So off we went to the FIRST Store to buy enough safety glasses for our pit crew. Any guesses on what was for sale in the store? OUR TINTED SAFETY GLASSES! Even with the evidence in hand, we still lost that battle. We have used the clear version ever since, but many of us still prefer the anti-glare version.

Story aside, as an auditor and implementer of international standards, I always have a problem when "guides" become "rules." Guides are suggestions, recommendations, best practices, encouragements, good ideas. Rules are rules, requirements, shalls, must dos (or must not dos) as the case may be.

This is the purpose of the FIRST Safety Manual:

This safety manual is an easy-to-use guide for important safety information and provides FRC participants with a basic set of requirements to maintain a safe environment during the build season and at competition events.

Which is it? A Guide or Requirements? :confused:

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

This. Enough said.

Also you could blame us for this

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I am assuming that Lockheed Martin mailed every team they sponsored 30 pairs of blue tinted safety glasses again this year. A number of safety advisors asked about them but it was nothing more than an inquiry. Several students including our driver prefer clear lenses anyway.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

We are also Lockheed sponsored and we got the same glasses.

FRC's guidelines on the matter:

Quote:
Wear ANSI-approved, UL Listed, or CSA rated non-shaded safety glasses. Lightly tinted Rose, Blue, Amber tints are FIRST approved, but reflective lenses are not (eyes must be clearly visible to others).

Blue tinted are FIRST approved...this should not be a problem

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I was pressing this point recently: the competition manual says that "[p]articipants and team mentors must review the FIRST safety policies and the FIRST Safety Manual..." and "[e]very team should know, understand and follow the safety rules found in the FIRST Safety Manual" (emphasis added). Apparently, the first quoted sentence is a requirement and the second quoted sentence is a recommendation.

That leads me to believe that the safety manual is intended as a set of recommendations rather than requirements.¹ Note that elsewhere in the competition manual, FIRST has certain explicit safety requirements that are independent of the safety manual. I consider this distinction to be perfectly reasonable: there are some safety-related things which FIRST might like (for entirely valid reasons) which are infeasible to demand, and there are some safety-related things which need to be demanded in order to promote an acceptable level of risk.

By the same token, I realize that event staff have the power and duty to make the competition reasonably safe, and that if they choose to implement the safety manual recommendations, they may be justified in doing so. In that case, they need to realize that they are acting on their own initiative, rather than implementing a mandatory FIRST directive.

¹ I realize that given the conflicting use of terms, that this could be interpreted in other ways. I think this one is the most reasonable, given the text and its source (the competition manual), but this isn't a case where the proper interpretation is necessarily obvious.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

I see so many unrated glasses at events that I stopped even commenting. The worst offenders are those that wear regular non-safety rated perscription glasses with flimsy plastic sides shields. I see them at every event and they do not adequetely prevent debris from getting to the eyes.

For that matter when grinding you should be wearing glasses and a face shield or goggles that seal tightly to the face. NO ONE FOLLOWS THIS AT EVENTS!

Then said tracking light is a safety hazard and should not get through inspection because everyone else in the building is dealing with it.

I wear Oakley Radars with a clear lens occansionallyto the shop and evants, I originally got an array of lenses for biking, all Oakley lenses meet or exceed all safety requirements for ANSI impact testing, but only the "sports" glasses typically meet the side shield requirements.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

My understanding as a mentor is to prepare these teens to what it's like in the real world. No place I've worked that require safety glass would allow anything other than #1 tint.

Also, when purchasing prescription safety glasses, you cannot get anything other than #1 tint. When I replace my last set of glasses, I asked to have the old pair tinted darker for sunglasses, like I did a few years ago with my non-safety glasses, and because of liability, they would not do it.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Cool is irrelevant. Decorate your robot, but safety is safety. For the same reason factories don't allow tinted safety glasses, FIRST doesn't allow them.

Part of my mentor training was to teach these students what they will see in an actual machine shop environment. Sometimes things suck, like real life.

Safety rules are not ambiguous.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

There's a phrase for that: Real life.

If you've worked in the real world for any amount of time, fair is not a word that is often used or enforced.
27 years in industrial/factory maintenance, and I've never been hurt other than a scratch, and I've never seen ridiculous safety rules.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

So when we see a superior blatantly breaking written safety rules, we should just shrug and look the other way because that is life?

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Much depends on degree. You see someone playing with light sabers in the pits, do something right now. Some one walking around with tinted glasses, roll yours eyes.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

While it is unfortunate that the rule doesn't seem to be enforced equally across all those at an event, I doubt that it is in any way a conspiracy or a conscious effort to let some people break the rule.

At most events I've been to, the safety advisors rarely make it out to the field. This makes sense, as the pits are a far more dangerous environment than the field. The field is also very closely monitored by many of FIRST's best trained volunteers, so they don't require supervision by a safety advisor to remain safe for those nearby.

Secondly, the description of the Safety Advisor role puts a lot of emphasis on coaching teams in proper safety procedures. While volunteers should not be and are not exempt from safety rules, the general assumption is that volunteers are aware of them and follow them.

If you do see volunteers violating the safety rules and guidelines, then you should either politely inform the volunteer or tell a safety advisor to do so if you do not feel comfortable approaching the volunteer.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

In spite of the fact that FIRST explicitly allows lightly tinted Yellow, Rose, Blue, and Amber tints, the generalization, mentioned several times, that tinted glasses are only for outdoor use is too broad.

It is typically the colors listed that are used for contrast enhancement, color correction, and/or glare reduction in an indoor setting as well.

Adding gray to the list would be useful - UVEX, for instance, has a gray lens that still allows 80% of visible light to pass, while reducing the amount of transmitted IR.

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

Recently at a FIRSTWA district event our judging team approached a pit area to ask questions about the team's robot. The team safety captain politely stopped us before we got there, "We'd be happy to answer your questions, but first I'm going to have to ask you to put on your safety glasses, sir." she said to one of the judges who, although wearing prescription glasses had forgotten his over-glasses in the judging room.

We were more than happy to wait and talk with the team while he went and got his safety glasses and the discussion carried on from there.

Moral of the story: the student spoke up to a judge, politely but firmly insisted that he get his glasses, the team got additional time talking to the judging team, the judging team went away impressed with both the robot and the team's professionalism, and afterwards I went and tracked down a safety advisor to put in a good word for the team.

So, no. While there are times in life when it appropriate to keep your mouth shut, at an FRC event you should always -- politely -- feel free to advocate for FRC principles. If you see someone with inappropriate safety glasses, you can politely mention it to them, offer to loan them a pair of approved glasses, or -- if you are uncomfortable with that -- bring it to the attention of a safety advisor. If that upsets anyone, it's them that is doing it wrong... not you.

Jason

Re: Reflective Safety Glasses
 

You should notify a mentor and let them deal with it, just as in real life, you report safety violations to your boss, manager, supervisor.