North Star Regional...
 

Let's get the discussion going...

The Minnesota Regionals (10,000 Lakes and North Star) will bring in over 120 teams to Minneapolis next week.

In the North Star Regional it looks like only 2 are Rookies are in. It looks like the return of the venerable FRC 2169 KingTec team along with a very strong team in the Fighting Calculators (2175). Along with these teams, we have FRC 3928 (The Neutrinos) and the Iron Lions from Ames, IA (FRC 967). From what I have seen - this could be a regional that is up for grabs within these teams.

My guess for the top three after qualifiers is this:
1. 2175
2. 967
3. 3928

Anyone want to take a stab on the finals?

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I was going to start this thread up tommorow :p

-North Star has a total of 60 teams competing this year, 10 of which are 1st and 2nd year teams.
-It will be the second regional for the following teams:
967, 1816, 2169, 2175, 2177, 2220, 2472, 2491, 2574, 2883, 3042, 3130, 3206, 3298, 3883, and 3928
The following teams reached the elimination rounds at their first regional: 967 (SF), 1816 (QF), 2175 (W), 2177 (QF), 2472 (QF), 2491 (QF), 2883 (QF), 3042 (QF), 3130 (QF), 3206 (QF), 3298 (QF), 3883 (F), 3928 (QF)

Based on the scouting I've done:
-967 will be a force in qualification matches due to their 2 ball auton and elite level scoring ability. I would expect them to be a top 3-4 team and a very early pick or alliance captain.
-2175 may be the top scoring robot at the regional and really showed it while they were in Duluth. They are an FRC Top 25 team and it wouldn't shock me at all to see them in the number 1 spot after qualifications.
-3130 has an excellent robot this year and is a very efficient scorer. If they are paired up with 2175 at all during quals it should be a fun show (the two teams share shop space and I'm sure they work extremely well together). I would be shocked if the errors don't make eliminations.
-3928 competed at a highly competitive Greater Kansas City regional in which they put up 300pts with 1986 (Team Titanium) and 118 (Robonauts). They have a lo g and effective truss shot as well as a very effective ground pickup.They should be a top pick or alliance captain by the time eliminations role around.

Top 5 Robots (in no particular order):
2175, 3928, 967, 3883, 3130

Overall North Star should be very competitive and I'm incredibly excited for it all to start! :D

Re: North Star Regional...
 

967 is very excited to be coming back to Minneapolis for this event. After watching some videos from Duluth, I think 2883 and 3206 will also be in the mix.

I hope everybody brings some key spare parts, because this game is tough on robots. It will hopefully be a little less rough with the new rule tweaks, but I still think the teams that go all the way will have to patch the robot up multiple times to keep it working.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Once again, the Fighting Calculators will be webcasting this regional. It can be found at http://fightingcalculators.org/webcast and on the Blue Alliance Game Day. We are excited to participate in the North Star Regional and are excited to see teams we haven't seen in a while as well. Good luck teams!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Team 3293, the OtterBots, are excited for Thursday. Honored to be competing with these great teams.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I know 2220 will be bringing in a few weeks worth of improvements to up our game and try to keep up with the competition. Looks like it will be a great weekend for some robot action!

I'm also excited to see 2169 joining us at North Star-- they've been absent the last couple years and the last time they competed at North Star was in 2009. If they can get their swerve drive working, I don't think it's a stretch to say they'll come out swinging.

Very excited to see how the tournament shakes out.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

We are very excited for North Star! We worked out some of the issues with our drive-train, and hopefully will be able to move on the field all our matches (knock on wood :D ) Ps. Don't do swerve drive

Re: North Star Regional...
 

You know, I talked a could of MN teams out of doing swerve this year... too bad you guys didn't ask me for advise!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Trust me, I know. "Don't do swerve" basically sums up 2220's entire 2011 season.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I was wondering what the deal was until somebody else mentioned you had swerve drive this year. It seemed like your collector and catapult worked well in the videos. I expect that 2169 will show up and be really formidable like usual.

Our experience is that drives can give us gremlins even if we think we're picking something simple. I can only imagine all of the evil things that a swerve drive can do to bite you.

967 also has some tweaks to make on Thursday. I'm guessing that a lot of teams have been busy in the last month - it will be very interesting to see what everyone brings. I did some more poking around the web to see what some of those 44 teams that haven't competed yet have been up to. Definitely some good robots in that bunch, too - can't wait to see the whole lot of them.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Haha, we thought that it would be easy to implement using the pre-fabricated wild-swerve modules, but we had issues with slipping on the encoder mounts and losing our zero mechanically, making us immobile in half our matches. It also didn't help that our shooter is very pneumatically dependent, because we had leaks as well. Some matches we would not start with enough pressure for auto :ahh:

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Well said. Sometimes keeping it as simple as possible is the best solution. Swerve drive is something that requires an off-season to prototype and work out, as we know now. Going into the six week build with no prior experience was a big no no haha

Re: North Star Regional...
 

This should turn out to be a great regional. 3883 has some tweaks to do to our catapult so hopefully we can actually get a reliable shot into the 10 point. If all else fails then we can still play some hard defense and truss shoot. The programming team is now working on encoders and gyros for aton. Cant wait to see all the teams and the final matches. I am really impressed with the kit chassis this year. It was simple to put together and is a solid base. As for swerve I cant even start to think of all the work, time and tuning that would need to go into it, but when a team has it right it just looks amazing. Hope you guys can get it going, no one like to see a robot sit through a match.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

As captain of team 2883, we are so excited for this weekend at North Star! After working out our harvest issues, we are one team of rednecks that are ready to shoot some exercise balls! Go Fighting Rednecks!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Who do you think will win Chairman's? 2220? 2169? 2175?

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Thanks for the shout out Nemo. NorthStar looks to be brutally exciting. In my opinion, there are maybe a dozen teams that could potentially take the top spot in qualifications as so much depends on the alliances each team ends up on through qualifiers, huge foul penalties (50pts) that can easily swing a match, strategy etc.

Touche on the spare parts - we have sustained some damage in our first regional and will need to make some fixes on Thursday at NorthStar. Team 3206 looks forward to hanging out and working with everyone at Mariucci this weekend. Will be lots of fun!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

There are so many good teams that you never know.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Update as of 9:47: the Field still has not shown up. A handful of volunteers are waiting for the Field to show up.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Hope you guys dont have to stay up forever getting the filed set up. (if it arrives).

Re: North Star Regional...
 

If it arrives? When. I sincerely hope it's when.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

It is now 11:33 and no field yet.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I am wondering where the field originally came from since last week; I assume that 10,000 lakes has the Wisconsin field. Hopefully we actually have a field to play on.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I think we'll have to put something special together for the volunteers after this field debacle.

EDIT: It sounds like the field arrived just before midnight. Everyone make sure to thank the incredible volunteers!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

It arrived at 11:50pm and Field set up is underway!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Its about time. All the volunteers deserve their own award for this one. Wish we could be there to help. See you guys there tomorrow.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Thank you to all the volunteers that stayed to help out. We had members from 3018 Nordic Storm, 525 Swartdogs, 2052 KnightKrawler, 2470 The Blitz Team and 2175 the Fighting Calculators there until 1:30am. The field was mechanically setup and we were finishing up the electronics at that time. Please bring your FTAs coffee tomorrow morning!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Field was stuck at Customs coming from the Waterloo Event last week.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

This would explain a lot.
Great job to all the hard working volunteers, you guys are awesome!

This can't be the first time (this season, let alone in the entire history of FIRST) that a field has had to clear customs. What happened this time?

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I'm not sure about other fields in the past, but for sure robots often have issues. A china team last year came to Hawaii but their robot never made it. Stuck at customs permanently and very heartbreaking.��

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Thanks for the update. It made for an interesting night of waiting and team bonding for Nordic Storm 3018. Good luck to all those competing at both North Star and 10,000 Lakes. Hope to see a bunch of you in St. Louis!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Well the the field was set and things went great on it for the two times we made it out. The robot is finally making the 10 point shots it should have been making at LSR. Here is the highlight video from day 1. Looks like it should be a great competition, cant wait to see the elims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYxx...ature=youtu.be
Hope you enjoy!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

C.I.S. had an incredible time at North Star today! Our first few matches were plagued by a multitude of problems but we really figured things out by our 4th match. We must have replaced at least 35 pwm cables today! We ended up ranked 19th after day 1 and are really excited to see what day 2 will bring. Big shout out to 3883 Data Bits and 967 Iron Lions for letting us truss shot during match 53! Putting up 245 pts (without fouls) was definitely the highlight of my day!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

That was one great match! The tweeks we made to our shooter made all the differnce with our robot. Im glad we performed our roll in the alliance by getting those shots in the goal. (just a little bit of pressure on that ball with 3 assists waiting to be scored). Our robot has been just working great today not a single missed aton shot. If it was not for some fouls we would be 6-1, but what can you do. This should turn out to be a great competition! Its going to be a fun one. Here is our day 2 highlight video. (a lot of highlights in this one)
North Star 3883 Day 2 Highlights

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Great job to both 3883 and 4607 for that awesome match! We had just fixed our double auto a bit before that match and it hasn't missed since...knock on wood. Good luck to all teams tomorrow, there are going to be some awesome matches!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Well this is exciting, Teams 967, 2175, and 4607 are paired up on the number one alliance. For those who don't know those are the three teams who won North Star last year as the number 2 alliance. Looking forward to seeing if they can repeat. Should be some exciting elimination matches!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Alliance selections for anyone interested.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

And the former champions are eliminated by the 5th seed. Amazing defense today.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

That call just didn't make sense.

Is it just me or have there been a lot of connection issues at this regional? I've seen a lot of robots stopping suddenly in the middle of matches and coming back a time later.

I'm not sure if this is just a result of all the rough defense and has occurred at other regionals or not.

Admittedly I haven't kept up with other regionals very well.

Congrats to 2177, 3042, and 4778 for their victory. Eliminations were very intense, well fought by all teams.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Yes, lots of robots at all regional have had issues with loose wires due to the physical nature of this game.

That's what I suspected. There was definitely a lot of hard hits in most matches.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Interesting. 10k had very little compared to what I've seen in previous weeks

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I can tell you... We tracked down all connection issues on the field. This is a very rough game, and with teams using more motors than ever before, it's not uncommon to have battery issues or loose wire issues.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

We don't actually know why it was so late, and likely never will. We heard a lot of conflicting information from the shipping company, which makes it unlikely that the cause was simply customs. It is certainly possible though!

10k was pretty comparable to the Duluth regionals and, from what I have heard, North Star. We had mostly the same issues- loose wires, batteries not secured properly, bad ethernet ports on driver's stations.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Team 3883 had a great time at the regional. We had a solid alliance going into the elims but the number one seed was just a little better. Thanks to 2491 and 2220 for the great matches.

The day 3 3883 highlight video is done. If you stick around till the end there is some great bonus dancing going on.
3883 Day 3 Highlights

Re: North Star Regional...
 

We thought your robot was one of the best, We were really surprised you didn't get picked earlier. The quarterfinals were some really good matches and i think is what FIRST had in mind when designing the game.

Our Elimination alliance was exactly what we wanted with 2175 being really amazing and 4607 (surprisingly not getting picked earlier) was our number 1 choice for the 2nd pick.

We hoped for a repeat but unfortunately we got beat out in the semifinals due to some extremely tough defense. 4778, 3042, and 2177 all played very well and good luck at worlds.

Rookie all-Star winner 5339 was truly a great team to be around, they show the ambition and values of FIRST incredibly well. We will be seeing some great robots from them in the future.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Just about everyone I talked to was surprised 4607 didn't get picked earlier. There was a solid chunk of time where some of us watching from behind the scoring table were saying "well, they have to be picked this time!" It was almost comical to watch your team rep when the number 2 seed made their second pick - I honestly thought your guy was going to start jumping around he looked so happy.

This game was certainly designed for the elimination matches - some of the quals were almost painful to watch when robots weren't working or teams weren't communicating well... but in the eliminations the alliances get their act together and play an amazing game - It didn't matter who was on the field, you knew it was going to be exciting!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I just want to congratulate my alma mater 2169 for thier 5th chairmans award in their 8th year as a team. You guys make me proud to be a KING TeC alumnist! This was our goal when we formed this team back in 2007.

21!!!!!
69!!!!!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

This is a tremendous understatement. It was incredibly difficult to predict the outcomes of elimination matches. I often thought one team was going to emerge victorious, only to have the other team suddenly surge ahead.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I'll second that :]

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Thanks everybody for the compliments! I think the reason we were passed over was because of the fact that we were severely limited for our first 4 matches due to faulty pwm cables. After we were fully functional the alliance we were on never failed to break 100 pts (except qualification match 94 in which one of our alliance partners broke down). It sucks that we can't truly show what our robot can do unless we qualify for the Minnesota State Championship (which based on my knowledge of the scoring system it is unlikely that we will make it). We were having slight difficulties with slop in our winch which limited our shot to about 30 feet. Ideally we would have been able to shoot full court to the human player without ever having to leave our corner by the 1 pt goal (a 50'+ shot which we advertised to pit scouts). If by some miracle we do qualify for the MSHSL tournament watch out for C.I.S.!

A big thanks to 967 and 2175 for picking us 2 years in a row! It was unbelievably fun working with your drive teams as we communicated better than any other team in any sport I've ever been apart of. The only smile bigger than the Iron Lions' team representative was my smile as I accepted the invitation. The past 2 years in FRC have truly changed my life and I'm looking forward to what the future holds for me as I hope to start more FRC teams around Minnesnowta.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Well, being passed over wasn't a bad thing. It gave us a chance to compete alongside 967 and 2175 again!

Much thanks to all the volunteers, judges, inspectors, and officials that make an FRC event possible - especially North Star possible.

A special thanks to FRC Team 2175 - you have helped out 4607 in many ways in the last year, we really appreciate how you have taken us under your wing. Also, a special thanks to Mr. Will Preska - I know my drive team appreciated the perspective you offered up after the tough loss.

Thanks also to 967 - it was awesome watching the teams play so well together. Hopefully there is another chance in the future to work alongside the Iron Lions.

Good luck to those that qualified for the Championships!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I can't speak for the two instances in quarterfinals, but I our two problem matches in the semifinals were not connection issues. In SF 1-2 we tipped over due to our high CG and some reckless driving, and were obviously incapacitated for the remainder of the match. In SF 1-3, if you watch, we are still connected and controlling our robot. The shield had come off the guardrail and the 2" steel hooks that hold it on got our robot stuck on the field, flailing pretty pathetically just in front of the low goal. Why this was not considered a field fault and the match replayed, I will never know. A big shame too, that 967 didn't get a chance to fight it out fairly, especially considering their phenomenal performance in the matches just before that, and throughout qualifications the last two days. Without a doubt the best robot at the event, and they didn't get their chance to qualify for Champs.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

The head ref declared it to be "field debris", similar to a dead ball that comes loose and starts bouncing around. It all depends on whether the head ref determines something like that to be "field debris" or a "field fault".

It's a tricky situation, to be sure...

We don't replay matches when parts break off a robot and sit on the field, even if another robot ends up getting stuck on them - that's just "field debris".

All cases of "field fault" I've witnessed were caused by the FMS barfing - either crashing or causing issues with the pedestal lights or issues with scoring that couldn't be resolved after the fact.

I don't know that I've ever seen part of the field come loose and interfere with robot performance before. It is unfortunate, I think everyone there would have liked to see a nice clean match to decide things in the semi's... but as I told my kids when they had calls go against them "That's how the game works. Time to move on and prep for whatever is next".

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Doesn't seem like a terribly tricky situation. Standard practice is to zip tie the guardrail shields in place before the match starts, and a volunteer did so immediately after SF 1-3. We design our robots not to damage balls, and it's pretty easy to see when a deflated ball is posing a hazard as "field debris." Pieces of other robots are coming off because of their own construction and robot interactions, and have nothing to do with FIRST. But when the field falls apart due to minor incidental contact with a robot's bumper and affects the outcome of a match, that is nothing other than a field fault. Unless you want to design a robot that can drive on a field covered in 2" steel hooks just in case (secret end game?).

We couldn't even tell where the polycarb sheet had landed on the floor until the robot was no longer able to move.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

The piece you're referring to is never zip tied to the field - the hooks are used to hang it over the entrance to the field, allowing it to be quickly and easily moved to load teams and robot on/off the field.

Regardless, it was the head ref's call and not something worth arguing about after the fact. Per section 5.5.3:
For those not present at the event, you can see the piece come off here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBnr...Zp85I9lC#t=117

Re: North Star Regional...
 

You are correct (and this has been confirmed by HQ...); zip tying the shield is not part a standard operating procedure used by FTAs or field reset. Sounds like I was getting that from anecdotal evidence of volunteers doing so on their own initiative. I'm surprised the velcro alone has not been more of a problem in the past.

It was the head ref's call, and it was final, but it was also incorrect. I refer you again to T16. How a broken field element that has affected the outcome of the match does not qualify as a broken field element that has affected the outcome in his judgment is beyond me. So while he is entitled to his judgment, I am entitled to my serious doubts about his judgment.

It does not seem very productive to quiet the issue. I am not asking for a recall. Never once did I complain about how this affected my team. Fortunately, we had already qualified for the Championship. But some other teams were not so fortunate, and were very adversely by several questionable decisions by the refs, for which they showed no accountability. And I never said that 967, with our help, should have won the Semifinals. The opposing alliance played some amazing defense, though I challenge anyone to tell me that playing 2 on 3 in this is not a severe disadvantage. But you're suggesting they didn't even deserve a fair shot. And when a team of that caliber that has worked so hard all season and lost their chance at qualification to poor officiation, that is very unfortunate. It's not worth not arguing about after the fact. This sort of thing is bad for FIRST and I would like for it not to continue.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Perhaps not worth arguing about, but its worth discussing. I'll admit I do have a certain bias, but I struggle to see how this doesn't qualify as a Arena Fault given that it is broken field element (the shield came off), and it most certainly affected the outcome. If we don't talk about it after the fact how can we learn? The piece of the field border they caught on does not have to hang loose, since the velcro was not enough in this case then stronger measures need to be taken to secure this piece of the field border. I don't expect the head ref to come on Chief Delphi and say he changed his mind, but if there is some way to prevent this in the future, then it is absolutely worth discussing after the fact.

If something like this happened on Einstein I doubt you would say that the head ref's call is final and we shouldn't talk about it.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I interpret "ARENA fault" in T16 to mean that the field was broken, but not due to the actions of any particular robot.

If a specific robot can be blamed for a piece of the field coming loose, then that robot could actually be penalized under G10.

In the video that Jon posted, it seems pretty clear that one robot came along and push the gate off, then got caught on it. It was almost certainly accidental, so I'm happy that the robot didn't get a G10, but it definitely was well within control of the team.

The drivers are constantly going on and off the field to retrieve or place their robots, so they are aware that the gates are not locked in place. Perhaps teams just need to be more aware of which pieces of the field are more subject to dislocation.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

A team should not have to go out of the way to put a ball into a goal just because a piece of the field is likely to come off. The gates come off often, yes and a driver knows that they should not slam into it but when just turning and grazing it causes it to fall off, There is a problem.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Looking at the video again, it looks like the team caught the gap between the two sheets with their bumper, then drove forward and turned so that their robot was still moving into the gate at an angle. I wouldn't call that just a graze.

The other problem here seems to be that the drivers didn't notice the gate had come off. If they had seen that, they could have gone to the other goal to put the ball in.

I agree that what happened during the match was unfortunate. However, I agree with the ref in deciding that it was not a failure of the field.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I might not call it a graze, but I wouldn't call it a hard hit on the field either.
Part of section 2.1 in the game manual states "The ARENA is designed to withstand rigorous play and frequent shipping" I would not call this rigorous play by any stretch. I have seen far harder hit on the field that did not result in any noticeable effect. The fact that this field element did not stand up to what was in my opinion normal game-play indicates to me that it was a failure of the field due to a broken field component that affected the match outcome. To me, this is exactly the type of thing that T16 is there to prevent. G10 absolutely should not apply here as the blue box underneath clearly states "ROBOTS may push or react against any element of the FIELD." 2175 appeared to be "sidescraping" the field border to get their robot lined up with the low goal, something I have seen happen hundreds of times this year. What I haven't seen happen before is that panel coming off, which should have resulted in a T16 and a replay.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

cf. G10 and Sections 2.1 and 2.2.1. Certainly an appropriate action and certainly not appropriate for a G10.

We all saw the gate come off, but no one was positive where it had landed on or off the field until we were stuck. I feel we shouldn't be looking out for all possible, invisible obstacles not described in the field spec, rather than focusing on playing the game.

Watch the video again, this time from 1:53. The bot pulls up to the ball, picks it up, and comes to a stop next to the gate. Then, in executing a pretty reasonable turn to face the goal, the corner snags the panel. It appears as if the velcro is not even attached in this case, since it immediately slides directly to the side (I doubt the velcro would shear like that from a bumper corner). It slides a foot or so before hitting the human player barrier and flipping onto the field.

When one robot breaks another, a foul is assessed for the damage. When one robot breaks itself, a foul may be assessed for violating other robot rules or leaving parts on the field that may become a hazard to other robots. When a robot breaks the field, a foul is assessed. But when the field breaks a robot, it's just "unfortunate."

Re: North Star Regional...
 

That is something I would never say, never have said, and would never suggest. If you look back a few posts, I stated that the results were unfortunate and everyone (which includes me) would have liked to see a clean game without this issue.


The gates have been the same way for at least 8 years - the bar locks in place, and the lexan sheet is hung on it. Also note that T16 states "If, in the judgment of the Head Referee..." The rule doesn't dictate specific situations or items, it gives the head ref the ability to replay a match if he feels its warranted. It's similar in concept to R08 - the LRI can rule a design or mechanism unsafe or causing an unsafe condition and make the team take measures to correct it, and it doesn't matter if the team agrees with the assessment or not. A good LRI will explain the issue to the team and work to get them to agree with the danger, but even if the team doesn't...

Re: North Star Regional...
 

And in those 8 years, lots of things have changed. Just because things have always been that way doesn't mean they need to stay that way.

You are correct, but that isn't the point. I cannot speak for anyone else, but in my estimation, the head referee's judgement was not correct. It certainly is true he didn't feel it was warranted, but I do, and so do several others. It would be preposterous for FIRST to include specific situations in T16. It would tie the hands of every head ref, and lead to even more problems. So it comes down to judgement. It depends on whether, in the Head Ref's estimation, a T16 needed to be called. I believe that estimation is not correct.

As you mentioned, everyone wants to see a clean game, hence why T16 is in existence.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

When you say that the events of the match were merely unfortunate and that the Head Ref was justified in making his decision, you are either suggesting that they did not deserve a fair shot, or you are suggesting that they got a fair shot. From what I saw, they did not get a chance to be beaten fair and square. If you think what happened was fair to Team 967, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

I'd have to agree that this match should have been replayed. The guard coming off doesn't fall under G10, since it specifically states that robots are allowed to push or react against elements of the field. Although 2175 caused themselves to get stuck by continuing to drive onto the fallen guard, I don't feel that's reason enough to not replay the match. From the driver's perspective, I bet it was very difficult to see the guard, and when you only have 2.5 minutes in a match, you aren't exactly thinking through things thoroughly. The field should be built so that it can't easily fall apart. 2175 made it look as though a slight breeze could have knocked that guard off. Although these guards have been the same for a long time, drivers aren't (and shouldn't have to be) thinking about knocking these off (especially if they've never seen it happen before). I think this should serve as an example that these guards need to be redesigned. As far as field faults, I think it's safe to say that if a team launched a ball that hit the high goal and caused the goal to fall down, the match would be replayed. I see this situation as being no different, since an unintentional breaking of the field impeded a team's ability to score. I could see the head ref making the call he did for a qualification match, but not in eliminations. I have always felt that if something is in question during an elimination match, a replay should always be strongly considered. Usually these kinds of calls are made in qualifications to stay on schedule, but it's not justified to make a call for the sake of staying on schedule in eliminations. I'm very sorry that 967 and 4607 did not get to continue on for the chance to make it to the world championship.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

There seems to be some misunderstanding here... I never said the ref was justified, and if you go back and read my past 3 posts, you'll note that I've never actually said my opinion on the situation - I've merely pointed out what the rules say and what occurred.

The calls are what they are and the event is over. As a mentor, when my team suffers a disappointment or what they consider a "bad call", I see it as my job to help them get over it, move on, and get ready for whatever comes next. Whether thats another match, another regional, or starting prep for our offseason program doesn't really matter.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

In every sporting match, nothing goes as planned. No matter the teams involved, no matter the venue.

I will be honest, I was heart-broken for my team, and my alliance after that match. I still am. To watch the match play out - it was heart-wrenching. It still is.

My team is still young - it is only our second year. To be able to compete in the elimination rounds of North Star two years in a row is quite a feat - to be able to have the same alliance two years in a row is unbelievable.

After last season, we knew that we must make a big jump to build off of last year's success. So we decided to make a practice-bot (Betsy) - and everything was working great... We did have major problems early on as we were unable to refit our superstructure to our competition Robot in proper fashion - and we found out that our PWM's were the source of our problems early on. But once everything was firing spot on - we were very dominant.

It breaks my heart to not be able to bring my seniors to St Louis... The role of the coach is not easy - it ends this way for so many. The coach has to live this type of emotional hemorrhage year after year - only a few get to walk away as Champions.

The officials made the call that they deemed best fit for the situation. Everyone can make the perfect calls from hindsight... but the officials have to do so in the moment. I respect the decision that was made - and we move on. And I thank the officials for a doing a great job at the North Star.

Again, I thank all that are involved in making FRC so popular in Minnesota. MN is a great place to build a FRC program - such great pre-season learning opportunities, a great infrastructure, great Inspectors (special thank you to Jon Stratis - you have been awesome the last two years), great volunteers, and great post-season opportunities...

I am grateful to coach in a community that backs us; I cannot thank XCel Energy, LPI, Darter Plastics, SEH, and all of our sponsors enough; I am very thankful for the opportunity to work with great mentors; most of all, I am thankful to work with the best group of students in Minnesota.

I coach my team to look for the opportunities in all situations - and FRC 4607 is hard at work making this year's robot more robust and potent than it was before - we look forward to the off-season events!

Good luck to teams 2177, 3042, and 4778 - I know you will represent MN well! Hopefully we can meet up at the MSHSL Tournament!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Congratulations to all of the teams that are moving onto the Championship from North Star. They all deserve to go, and I'm sure the students and mentors on those teams have all worked very hard to get to this point.

Thanks to the hard working volunteers who make North Star a great regional.

It was great to work with all of the teams we had a chance to interact with, including our allies in the elimination rounds. It would have been interesting to see what would happen in the finals had we made it; all of the robots were getting beat up by that point. Our robot wasn't running at full power anymore; we had a bound up gear box on one side of the arm and possibly some worn out batteries causing things to run hot; we were draining batteries faster and running with less juice in the second half of our matches. So we were more and more vulnerable to defense. I think the alliance partners also were also experiencing some mechanical issues to add to the fun. We also blew a gyro to give some fun behavior in autonomous until we replaced it. This is the type of thing that happens all the time in elimination rounds, and it can go both ways. We know that pretty well after last year's finals in which 3928 (top seed and best robot at the event) had mechanical issues. It was great to see neutrino earn their first trip to the Championship, especially given their tough exit last year.

It was nice to see assists awarded for herding at this regional. It allowed one of my favorite matches ever to happen in Qualifier 80. We lost a chain and became immobile after autonomous, but the alliance switched strategies to have the remaining robots do two assist herding cycles. Then at the end, our partners pushed the ball to our stationary robot for a 3 assist high goal to end the match.

North Star is a great regional, and hopefully we can make it back there to compete again. Best of luck to all of the teams that are competing in the FIRST Championship and the Minnesota State Championship!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Since 2008 (That year: KING TeC, Senior in HS) I've always remembered what my mentor said to me, "You can build the best robot in the world, but you need a bit of luck to win these competitions." That year, our robot crashed into the field at full speed and was disabled in match #3 of the finals in Wisconsin, leaving our teammate Team 93 to score solo for 2 minutes while we watched helplessly from the divers station.

What happened at North Star, and moreover seems to happen consistently at North Star is teams that "should win" expect to win.

No one here on the forums is saying that Team 2175 (winners of Northern Lights), Team 967, or Team 4607 deserved to lose or that the ref made the correct call. The ref made the call on the information that was available to him at that moment. Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. In 2011, there was a double red card at North Star that lead to an amazing upset (2177 was apart of the upsetting alliance). I can only imagine the backlash that created for their team and their alliance. (For those that don't know, a red card in elims = auto disqualification for the entire alliance (auto-win for the other), double red card = not a good situation).

WINNING IS NOT WHAT FIRST IS ABOUT. Gracious Professionalism is what we strive for here. we are all on the same team.

To 2175, 967, and 4607, if you guys believe a call was made incorrectly, then please use the proper channels to air your grievances. Don't take it out on the forums and more importantly the teams that played their hearts out, and gave it their all (likely including sweat and blood) to be where they are today.

Good Luck to those moving on to Champs,
To the Minnesota teams that qualify, see you at MSHSL!

Nate Vetter
KING TeC Alumni - 2169

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Was this a robot or field issue?

It is true that I expected Team 967 to win, based on their performance before and during elimination matches. Everyone has expectations, and these get upset all the time. I am not taking issue with the fact that they did not win. I am taking issue with the fact that they did not get a fair chance to win. I think this is a reasonable expectation.

You are correct. It is not about winning. But when officials reward the hard work of this team with results like this, and the FIRST community has this response, it makes me wonder what it is about.

I and several others have already done so. My original post was made with the intent of informing the general public about the situation, as they did not seem to be informed (there was confusion in the stands immediately afterwards). Others did not seem to understand that there was an issue, so I stuck with it. I did not call out any of the teams on the opposing alliance for unfair play or malicious intent.

I am seeing the same trend across the country this season. Students and teams are being held accountable for their own honest and trivial mistakes as well as misfortunes out of their control, while FIRST is not responsible for mistakes on their end, in refereeing, field hardware, field software, inspection, etc. (Salient examples: Waterloo SF 1-3, Orlando QF 1, SVR SF 1-2, etc.) I don't like this. I would like it to change.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

In both tournaments we participated in there were tough decisions for Officials to make. Along with the field element being discussed from SF 1-3, our alliance had and autonomous high goal that clearly went through in QF 2-1 and bounced off something (a head) and came back into play. That really surprised me that it was ruled as not going through and the ball had to be cleared before a cycle could start. We got the short end of the ruling there and were on the other side in SF 1-3. The alliance of 967, 2175 & 4607 was excellent and their play when it was 2 on 3 was fantastic.

Does anyone know if FIRST reviews matches to help guide officials as the weeks go by? I was surprised that SF 1-3 was not replayed. That said, I watch pro football and there are similarly baffling calls each week where I believe officials interpret the rules incorrectly. Those folks are paid and are professional officials.

Re: North Star Regional...
 

You know, I never noticed that about QF 2-1, but it's fairly clear here (The second blue auto ball to be shot in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDXv...mrF xzzitaxFL

You can actually see the ball drop well below the level of the goal, then bounce back up onto the platform behind the goal and roll back out to the field. I would guess none of the refs noticed it either, although in a match blue lost by 5 points that made all the difference! I certainly don't fault the refs for the call... I was standing right by the field watching the match (and paying more attention to blue than red!) and didn't realize what had happened either!

It just goes to show that everyone ends up on the wrong side of a ref's ruling eventually!

Re: North Star Regional...
 

Nome of us have ever said that winning was what FIRST is about. I'll admit that, yes, I expected our alliance to win, and if I had to bet on a rematch, i would say we would win.

The issue was never that we lost. The match fell apart when the field broke. The calculators held what would have been the game winning ball a foot away from the goal. Had they been able to get it into the goal, and everything else was the same, we would have won. When my teammate and I, both seniors, went onto the field to get the robot, i told him that I couldn't lose like that. I don't care about the outcome of the match, as long as we lose honestly.

This was not a real loss. I know that the refs took a long time debating this, and it was petitioned by all three teams on our alliance.

Finally, I want to say that I couldn't talk for days afterwards, and I remember the EXACT moment my voice went:
Hearing our number from 967 was the highest point of the competition for me, and I would lose with that alliance a hundred times, before I would win with any other: thank you 967 and 2175 for giving me one hell of a senior gift.

-Alex