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-   -   301 points! and could have done more (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128152)

Maxwell777 24-03-2014 17:11

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboAlum (Post 1364033)
Its not the idea of being perfect a HOF team is suppose to set an example for those younger teams.

Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.

Grim Tuesday 24-03-2014 17:12

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
My issue with this challenge is that it gave teams two competing goals: One to try and win the regional and the other to get more money for next year.

There is no way anyone can argue that not playing defense will increase the chance of an alliance winning. Given the sheer amount of downtime in this game, there is almost always some defense to be played to lower the opponent's score.

As a result, encouraging a team not to play defense for a cash reward directly pits "winning the match" with "helping our program for next year". These two goals should not be opposing.

All the teams in this match that we have heard from on Chief Delphi are very insistent that this decision was completely voluntary, to play as they decided to. I won't second guess their decisions; I respect the choices they made. But if I were in their shoes, I would not like to be forced to choose between trying my best to win the match and $500.

If I were given this challenge, I would vehemently oppose playing any way but the way that gave me the best chance to win. I would hate giving up the chance for $500 and I'm sure I'd take some heat from fundraisers on my team as well as potentially less financially fortunate members of my alliance.

Quote:

With Gracious Professionalism, fierce competition and mutual gain are not separate notions. Gracious professionals learn and compete like crazy, but treat one another with respect and kindness in the process. They avoid treating anyone like losers. No chest thumping tough talk, but no sticky-sweet platitudes either. Knowledge, competition, and empathy are comfortably blended.
The challenge given is an interesting twist on the 'official' GP definition. On one hand, it can be argued that 'fierce competition and mutual gain are not separate notions'. On the other hand, I wonder if not playing the match to the full potential might fall under not 'competing like crazy'.

Quote:

CoopertitionŽ produces innovation. At FIRST, Coopertition is displaying unqualified kindness and respect in the face of fierce competition. Coopertition is founded on the concept and a philosophy that teams can and should help and cooperate with each other even as they compete.

Coopertition involves learning from teammates. It is teaching teammates. It is learning from Mentors. And it is managing and being managed. Coopertition means competing always, but assisting and enabling others when you can.
The same conundrum is produced from the definition of coopertition. You assist others in fundraising for the next season but at the same time, you reduce the level of 'competing always'. Similarly, you are still competing but you have re-written the game.

There is also the issue of a slippery slope with challenges like this. What if the challenge was $500 if one alliance could hold the other to 0 points in teleop? Would it be OK to simply not try to score in the finals in an attempt to raise $1000 in two final matches?

Why is this different from 6v0 of 2010? In Breakaway, 6v0 was created by The Tournament, definitely part of the manual, and the game. It created a conflict between winning a match and winning a regional. Unlike this challenge however, it did not create a conflict between winning the regional and fundraising. It did not give a competitive advantage to better funded teams who needed the money less. It did indeed put teams in a tough situation where there is a decision teams have to make that they should not be forced to.

Dave McLaughlin 24-03-2014 17:12

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvash (Post 1364029)
They didn't play the game how you would if liked, deal with it. Unless you have asked the GDC on how they'd like to see the game played, don't say it isn't in the spirit of things.

Do you honestly think that if I asked in the official Q&A if providing challenges with monetary rewards to teams that have the potential to alter match play is legal they would say yes?

dodar 24-03-2014 17:13

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1364055)
Exactly, and we found a way to keep them from playing defense on us.

What would your approach be, other than how we played the first match? That didn't work out so well. I'd really like to know how to win a match like that.

Dont let them get to the inbound position, dont let them truss, dont let them shoot. You guys barely even touched them.

TheOtherGuy 24-03-2014 17:13

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1364048)
They improved the MOV by 3 points.

Read my last post, and his post.

::deadhorse::

RoboAlum 24-03-2014 17:14

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1364055)
. I'd really like to know how to win a match like that.

Well you obviously know red would win the Autonomous period but you could of still had 60 and Gila monsters play def on 842. You guys had a good bot and could of ran the field with doing truss shots and high goal shots and 1 assist. Yes your alliance wasn't a powerhouse but there is always a chance as long as you try.

Tottanka 24-03-2014 17:14

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwell777 (Post 1364061)
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.

That is an arrogant statement.
And there are times for fun, and times for doing your best. Regional finals - is times for doing your best (which is usually more fun than anything else, by the way).
To me, losing while doing your best, is better than winning this challange.

dodar 24-03-2014 17:14

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy (Post 1364066)
Read my last post, and his post.

::deadhorse::

Its not beating a dead horse if that is gonna keep being his response to "they did better." I can guarantee you that if they had played more/better defense the MOV would have been reduced by a lot more than 3.

bduddy 24-03-2014 17:16

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwell777 (Post 1364061)
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.

That's one of the worst examples you could possibly set. Lose the first match? Just give up!

TheOtherGuy 24-03-2014 17:18

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1364069)
Its not beating a dead horse if that is gonna keep being his response to "they did better." I can guarantee you that if they had played more/better defense the MOV would have been reduced by a lot more than 3.

It is beating a dead horse. We're choosing different metrics on how the blue alliance performed. Either is valid, this argument is going nowhere. Ergo, dead horse.

Abhishek R 24-03-2014 17:19

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwell777 (Post 1364061)
Yes, we're setting an example to the younger teams that having fun is more important than winning. We, both alliances, decided that we wanted to try to beat a standing challenge, and have fun doing it, because we both knew that the 2nd match would end just like the first.

I'm hearing that you can't have fun by trying to win the match because you lost the first one. Teams have several times taken sets to three and sometimes even advanced from there.

dodar 24-03-2014 17:20

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy (Post 1364072)
It is beating a dead horse. We're choosing different metrics on how the blue alliance performed. Either is valid, this argument is going nowhere. Ergo, dead horse.

If you think we are using different metrics then you are basing your metrics of "winning" off of the $500 challenge instead of actually winning the match.

Maxwell777 24-03-2014 17:24

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tottanka (Post 1364068)
That is an arrogant statement.
And there are times for fun, and times for doing your best. Regional finals - is times for doing your best (which is usually more fun than anything else, by the way).
To me, losing while doing your best, is better than winning this challange.

I cannot find his post, but I believe that earlier the driver from team 60 (Blue), said that the last match was the best match that he had played that day. We all tried our best, the only difference was that we tried our best to break 200 on both sides.

Subnote: I had a feeling that it would come off as arrogant. My apologies, but I still think that we had the advantage.

TheOtherGuy 24-03-2014 17:25

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1364075)
If you think we are using different metrics then you are basing your metrics of "winning" off of the $500 challenge instead of actually winning the match.

No. You are using margin of victory. I am using the ratio between scores. Different metrics.

Maxwell777 24-03-2014 17:25

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1364073)
I'm hearing that you can't have fun by trying to win the match because you lost the first one. Teams have several times taken sets to three and sometimes even advanced from there.

As I said earlier:

I cannot find his post, but I believe that earlier the driver from team 60 (Blue), said that the last match was the best match that he had played that day.


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