Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Ok so I just wanted to jump in and say this yes the guy was wrong for the bribe he gave to all the teams at the regional. If he wants to alter the playing field at all he can but do it on his dollar (i.e an offseason event) where just like at IRI we change a few of the rules. But never do it to where it will alter the way a regional finals is played. I would also like to say that the unkind words towards Libby Kamen were wayyyyyy out of line, also the words from Cory from 254 yes AZ is not Waterloo ( I wish it was love when Karthik is the announcer) nor is it even at the level of some of the other regionals but in no way should you attack a fellow FRC team like that. Just like I said to 842 you're a HOF team you're suppose to set an example for us younger teams to follow.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Just wanted to chime in one last time to the HOF precedent being called out. Part of what made team 842 a Hall of Fame team and what makes us who we are is following and believing what we think is right. That inherently will create controversy in certain scenarios but that is unavoidable. We've made it pretty clear that we believe our decision to take part in this agreement was not incorrect. Sure its easy to back out of something that might create controversy and its easy to give out a fake apology to avoid criticism but going against our ideals and what we think is right is even worse in my opinion. Take team 842's stance on immigration reform as an example. Sure some might think that a robotics team shouldn't be meddling in non stem politics but that is who we are and what we believe in. We believe we what we did was okay and there was never any bad intentions.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

I wasn't going to weigh in here any more, but I have to vehemently disagree with the characterization of Mr. Sanghi's Challenge as a 'bribe'. Earlier in the thread someone posted the definition (which I can't find at the moment) but it included the phrase 'corrupting the game play'. He was absolutely, positively, adding to and improving the game, or at least trying to. It is all the Monday-morning arm-chair quarterbacking that has decided that it corrupted the game. It was an additional prize or scholarship that everyone had an opportunity to reach for.

Now when I say everyone, I of course am referring to everyone at the AZ Regional. And I do think it is a legitimate concern that this regional is part of the larger World championships, and this additional challenge did influence the game play. While it most certainly did not change the final outcome, it was not an opportunity available to FRC at-large, which does introduce an element of unfairness.

So, given the difficulty of the challenge, would Mr. Sanghi consider opening the challenge up to the world? Does anyone know him well enough to ask? He already spelled out the limit of 5 matches so it wouldn't be anymore money than he has already committed. I thought the challenge was great and shouldn't go away, but could be improved by opening up to everyone.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Out of curiosity, did you attend Arizona regional? I remember your team being mentioned.

EDIT: Confirmed.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Yes I did attend the regional I am a mentor on 4841 Optimal Robotics from Tucson.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

It is my personal belief (after reading this thread, seeing reactions from members of the teams involved, and my personal experience with members of two of the winning teams) that the events that occurred in Arizona were on the up and up and overall reasonably well thought through. While monetary incentives were posted, they were out there the entire competition and the reward for winning the regional was significantly higher than meeting the challenge.

Arizona does not concern me. With respect to the teams involved, I think their records and achievements speak for themselves as a testament to their character.

What concerns me is significantly less well thought out incentives programs that could cause legitimately objectionable gameplay to occur. Whether one believes the Arizona Regional events were acceptable or not, I think it's a significantly higher concern that other programs will be less well considered and positive. I don't think it's much of an argument that we need something in the administrative manual against these sorts of actions. Jeff from 1986 said it best-- "Pandora's box has no regard for who opened it"-- it's best to nip this before it becomes a genuine issue and actually corrupts the competition.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Snipped and quoted partially....(From the previous page)

".....This has been my main thought on the issue. If Sanghi offered the challenge without the monetary incentive, things would have likely transpired the same way. You'd be surprised at just how open and loose the alliances were in elims. 4183 and 1726 were shooting the breeze constantly between matches, almost as if the competition itself came second to the socialization and shared appreciation of what we've all devoted our lives to for the past 3 months. I don't think you'll find a friendlier set of teams at a regional."
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Thank you bitbuckets....We try to be extremely friendly in AZ firstly, and FIRST-like. I like that about our Region and all its members too! And FIRST as a whole. (This thread though has shown me a different side though in many places). Just makes me think.

We are a FIRST family here in AZ...First to help another team, friends on and off the field....Fierce competitors on the field however...Always. And if you doubt at any time, that each team on each alliance was not trying to outscore the other in that battle (all through the eliminations and the qualifying rounds before also), you would be highly mistaken and highly underestimating those 6 teams.

1 alliance just outperformed the other at that particular moment in that particular event. (And 6th seeded alliance at 0-0 or later, down 1-0 vs the very well working together 1st seeded alliance,...Just try not to be a little jittery ever in that position). Watch all the videos throughout the competition, not just the Final Match-1 & 2 for proof. All are avail on YouTube or theblueallaince.com

Execution of strategy is everything in every FIRST match, or any other game or sport. Choice of strategy within the published rule set is YOUR CHOICE though.
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Some people would have died here I guess though to see me often in the NHRA drag strip pits eating lunch or dinner, or sharing my child's birthday cake w/ best friends, just before going out to whip them on the drag strip repeatedly, then later, take them out to dinner on my win check earnings. The Winner always bought dinner....It was an unwritten rule.:) A real family there too.

(Only we never got to cry about the rules and receive mid-season changes). They would have laughed & told us to stay home, and don't race....Your choice.

You want an NHRA Stock Eliminator motor/body combo looked at for re-classification? There is a rule book published process for that. Buy the book, submit your request and fee on the required paperwork, they will look at it using the published process in the rule book, and they will get back to you in a "few months time", w/ their decision. You get 1 appeal if you do not like the decision (rarely is an appeal ever won)....When they publish the change, (and send you a personal decision letter), in next years rule book usually,... then you can use the new classification).

But, whining & crying or complaining would get you absolutely nowhere...Which is why I personally dislike rule tinkering mid-season (defining or fixing typing/printing mistakes or other normal housekeeping excepted of course). I'm just used to that process. And it is only the "squeeky wheel that usually gets greased," otherwise...The rest just get flat hosed down, and left out in the cold to freeze.

On another note, AND THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO w/ THIS Current Conversation whatsoever except, that it can be a part of real life....Poker pots are often split if the reward is much greater than the original risk. I have also seen race cars split too when one is put up as a drag racing prize (or a Harley reverse raffle prize for a non-profit), and there is a ready buyer present w/ cash in hand...Eeek's...I even participated and won, in one of those $50K car prizes long ago/buyer there ready to pay $55K cash for the car from the winner/winners at a drag race.....We got down to 5 guys left in, all agreed to split the $50K @ $10K apiece on a $500.00 entry fee to race, w/ the leftover $5K additional going to the eventual actual race winner!)

You think we didn't try hard for that win even after already cashing $10K each GREEN AMERICAN DOLLARS...Yes we did, and I received it hard fought too. Sometimes risk vs reward has to be weighed properly in life, sport, and in business). Uncle Sam liked me when it was tax time too. That hobby cannot be claimed as non-profit.

I hope comparing previous life experience above does not muddy the water even more here. But, we deal w/ reality, and if you think that money (knowledge and volunteerism), isn't also the fuel the FIRST engine runs on...You are only fooling yourselves. I have seen and felt the expenses personally on our family pockets. The whole community runs on FUNDRAISING $$$$$'s parts, services, donations & sponsorships. Kicking a sponsor like Mr. Sanghi for trying to help AZ FIRST Teams....Now, that really surprises me. And all who have in this thread, are foolish in my personal opinion.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

_____________________________

You young man I personally believe will go very far in life after reading a few of your posts.

Given that said though..."Life Just Isn't Always Fair...And, it wasn't meant to be either."

Some team sponsors choose to buy their teams official FIRST game field setups from the manufacturers. Some Regional Sponsors choose to add field play financial rewards as additional incentives....Neither, is any different than the other...Not a single bit. Both reward or cause improved game play in the end, and both improve the level of competition.

Pot calling kettle black improves nothing. Concerning $$$$, Pandora escaped that box long ago.:)

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

That is absolutely, wholeheartedly false. Offering a team a sponsorship after/before the build season is not anything like offering money for teams to try and make some arbitrary goal that differs from the overall goal of a match.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

dodar.....(lets go of the rope)...You Win.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

In the past 5 years that I have been a part of the FIRST community I have never seen so much hate shown toward a specific regional or group of teams. As a member of Plasma Robotics I can say with full assurance that our team meant nothing more than to be a helpful contributor to our alliance in the last match of the finals. Sometimes you have to do what's best for the team, and in that position we did what we were picked to do, pass the ball. dodar, all I can say is that even if everything you have said is true, being so rude is no more GP than the things that you are commenting about. I politely ask you to drop the argument since obviously the past 24 pages of comments are reaching no conclusion. I want nothing more than to enjoy this years competition. If you think the things you are writing is helping the community and FIRST as a whole, there are far worse problems in FIRST than the outcome of the Arizona Regional. I respect your right to freedom of speech but this thread has really gotten out of hand and out of the spirit of FIRST.

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Why didn't they just turn the robots around, run auto mode, collide under the truss, rack up a couple hundred points in tech fouls, and play the game as usual?

Also, I'll offer a couple dozen Krispy Kremes and a 24-pack of Dew for a 0-0 tie on Einstein. Any takers?

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Can a mod please close this thread before anyone degrades themselves further?

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

Just wanted to lend my support to 842, the coconuts, plasma ,the gila monsters, the nerds , and the bionic bulldogs . The personal attacks on Fredi, Ms. Kamen, Steve Sanghi and others is uncalled for.

Here in Arizona, the AZFRC has struggled in years in terms of the funding, but great people like Fredi, Steve, all of the Forbes, and countless other volunteers, sponsors, and mentors have helped make the regional a reality.

Steve Sanghi has done more publicly and personally nationwide for robotics than a lot of sponsors have done. Not only does he deserve respect for what he has done, but he also deserves thanks. Even using the words such as "bribe" is disrespectful to the man who has done so much for all of FRC, not just Arizona.

Fredi is an amazing mentor. I've gotten the opportunity to work with him and watch him work with his team and he leads to the best that he possibly can. Alot of you have never been to Carl Hayden Highschool. Meet the kids he mentors, and you will realize that the team he leads is an oasis in the desert. There is no other program in Arizona that has delivered better or more results than his robotics program.

Coconuts+842 alliance was essentially the end of the Arizona regional. 842 had a strong and high quality robot just like in previous years, and the coconuts had a great and consistent robot that was impossible to stop.


congrats to 842, the coconuts, and plasma for the win and congrats as well to the gila monsters, the nerds , and the bionic bulldogs for a great second place.


It was a fun regional AZ teams!

Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 

We tried that in our first match (AZ QM 02) :)
Nobody joined us. :(
My apologies to The Bulldogs; it was not intentional or malicious, just bad engineering judgement. We had already told the drive team to not try to shoot, and forgot to keep a lid on the robot itsself.

I'll match your Kripsy Kemes with Duncan Donuts.

Anyone want to pile on with Tim Horton's?