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-   -   301 points! and could have done more (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128152)

falconmaster 23-03-2014 21:06
301 points! and could have done more
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQtXL7n93JA

Adam Freeman 23-03-2014 21:20
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Not to take anything away from your 301pts or the win.... but, where is the defense?

The only time a blue robot approached a red robot was to get a run away ball. And, they moved out of the way when the red robot backed up from the inbounder.

This is a totally different game than what is being played everywhere else.

I love offense, but that looked like an exhibition...not the final match of a regional.

Jay O'Donnell 23-03-2014 21:22
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1363363)
Not to take anything away from your 301pts or the win.... but, where is the defense?

The only time a blue robot approached a red robot was to get a run away ball. And, they moved out of the way when the red robot backed up from the inbounder.

This is a totally different game than what is being played everywhere else.

I love offense, but that looked like an exhibition...not the final match of a regional.
My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately I think these good teams will struggle at Champs when they realize how tough defense is in other areas of the world. I also don't understand how teams can just sit there when they don't have the ball and do nothing.

BobbyVanNess 23-03-2014 21:23
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Impressive score! I watched this on the live webcast actually. However after driving through a moderately defensive regional, this seems to be the only time ever that I've seen as little defense as that. I think one blue robot may have gently nudged one red robot one time during all of teleop. It looks almost coordinated. Can I ask why teams chose to spend most of the match idle rather than defending? It just seems totally bizarre to me.

AllenGregoryIV 23-03-2014 21:24
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Any reason why there was almost zero defense in this match? Was that just the alliances' strategies or were the referrers calling match extremely tight before this? Were teams scared to play defense?

Congratulations on the win.

Gregor 23-03-2014 21:26
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1363363)
Not to take anything away from your 301pts or the win.... but, where is the defense?

The only time a blue robot approached a red robot was to get a run away ball. And, they moved out of the way when the red robot backed up from the inbounder.

This is a totally different game than what is being played everywhere else.

I love offense, but that looked like an exhibition...not the final match of a regional.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...48#post1363148

...

Rangel(kf7fdb) 23-03-2014 21:27
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Finals 1 was more of how the regionals was. To sum Finals 2 up very quickly, Steve Sanghi, a big supporter of FIRST announced that if both alliance in a match score at least 200 points, he would sponsor every team with 500 dollars towards next season. Blue alliance actually approached us with the no defense plan and us the red alliance agreed because we were confident we could out score them with no defense on both sides. Why the blue alliance decided to do this I'll let them explain if they wish. Here is finals 1 btw and is similar to how finals 2 probably would have been played:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw

BobbyVanNess 23-03-2014 21:28
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1363369)
Igniting controversy in 3... 2... 1...

MrForbes 23-03-2014 21:29
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
It's interesting to see people's response to my silly idea. Notice that the outcome of the match was most likely not affected....will we ever know for sure?

does it matter?

It is a game, after all.

kuraikou 23-03-2014 21:32
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
From what I know there was a sponsor Steve Sanghi who agreed to pay for the entry fee of teams for next year's regional if they were in a match and both alliances scored over 200 points. So there was a pact made in the finals between the alliances to not play defense so that they could get the sponsorship, that is why there was little to no defense played.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 21:37
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1363363)
Not to take anything away from your 301pts or the win.... but, where is the defense?

The only time a blue robot approached a red robot was to get a run away ball. And, they moved out of the way when the red robot backed up from the inbounder.

This is a totally different game than what is being played everywhere else.

I love offense, but that looked like an exhibition...not the final match of a regional.
Previous match 1 match in finals with defense 225 to 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw
after this both alliances agreed to try to get 200 point plus each to get a bet made by Steve Sanghi, to get 500 dollars off the next years registration. almost made it 301 to 180

dodar 23-03-2014 21:38
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363380)
Previous match 1 match in finals with defense 225 to 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw
after this both alliances agreed to try to get 200 point plus each to get a bet made by Steve Sanghi, to get 500 dollars off the next years registration. almost made it 301 to 180
I cannot honestly believe anyone would agree to this. That really lessens the win to me. How do you tell this year's seniors that "hey, we arent going to try to win for a chance at maybe getting some of next years' entry fee."

MrForbes 23-03-2014 21:43
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363381)
I cannot honestly believe anyone would agree to this. That really lessens the win to me. How do you tell this year's seniors that "hey, we arent going to try to win for a chance at maybe getting some of next years' entry fee."
What was there to lose? for either side?

dodar 23-03-2014 21:44
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363389)
What was there to lose? for either side?
The regional...

MrForbes 23-03-2014 21:45
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
How?

dodar 23-03-2014 21:46
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363391)
How?
Hmmm, let the other side score as much as they want without trying to stop them.....let's think about how that might lose someone a regional championship.

Rangel(kf7fdb) 23-03-2014 21:46
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363381)
I cannot honestly believe anyone would agree to this. That really lessens the win to me. How do you tell this year's seniors that "hey, we arent going to try to win for a chance at maybe getting some of next years' entry fee."
Not trying to say I agree with the Blue alliance strategy but they had plenty of high scoring matches with defense being played on them that outscored some of our alliance's matches. If the first plan didn't work very great (finals 1), all out scoring may have actually given them a better chance at outscoring us. Unfortunately, they had some problems running their cycles in finals 2.

JohnFogarty 23-03-2014 21:48
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
It was a choice and both alliances seemed to have made it. If you were completely confident in your alliances ability to completely outscore your opponent's....would you do it? Apparently the alliance that lost clearly decided they would take that gamble. Would we have done it, probably not. Doesn't matter.

BRAVESaj25bd8 23-03-2014 21:49
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Does it lessen the win? No, they scored more, they deserved the win. Does it lessen the prestige of the high score? Absolutely.

I never want to bash sponsors, because they make FIRST possible for so many people. However, I sincerely disagree with this being an incentive for teams to change their strategy. This may not be against a rule in the manual, but a little bit of my pride in FRC died when I read about it. Here's to hoping against it becoming a trend.

dodar 23-03-2014 21:52
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1363399)
It was a choice and both alliances seemed to have made it. If you were completely confident in your alliances ability to completely outscore your opponent's....would you do it? Apparently the alliance that lost clearly decided they would take that gamble. Would we have done it, probably not. Doesn't matter.
But it could still change the strategy. If one alliance thought they could win by using 2 bots and scoring 180 pts with 1 defender but the incentive offered meant they had to try 3 bots to get 200+ with no defending, well then that 3rd bot could be out of position and then lose them the regional for not doing something they were picked to do. I dont mean the 3rd bot specifically would lose it for them but the new way of using them could.

JohnFogarty 23-03-2014 21:54
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
True.

MrForbes 23-03-2014 21:55
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363394)
Hmmm, let the other side score as much as they want without trying to stop them.....let's think about how that might lose someone a regional championship.
Only if it is one-sided. This case was two sided, we both agreed to not play defense for one match. We know each other, so we knew we could trust each other to keep the agreement...and of course if anyone violated the agreement, it was "over" and back to playing defense.

Coopertition™ can take many forms.

Duncan Macdonald 23-03-2014 21:55
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuraikou (Post 1363378)
From what I know there was a sponsor Steve Sanghi who agreed to pay for the entry fee of teams for next year's regional if they were in a match and both alliances scored over 200 points. So there was a pact made in the finals between the alliances to not play defense so that they could get the sponsorship, that is why there was little to no defense played.
How is this not points shaving/match fixing? I was fine with 6v0 in 2010 because there was a FIRST created situation that rewarded it. I suspect Mr. Sanghi's heart was in the right place but this 6v$ cheapens the entire FIRST robotics program for everyone.

Why didn't the human players just collect a couple technicals?

MrForbes 23-03-2014 21:57
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363404)
But it could still change the strategy. If one alliance thought they could win by using 2 bots and scoring 180 pts with 1 defender but the incentive offered meant they had to try 3 bots to get 200+ with no defending, well then that 3rd bot could be out of position and then lose them the regional for not doing something they were picked to do. I dont mean the 3rd bot specifically would lose it for them but the new way of using them could.
In this case, all the robots on both alliances did what they were picked to do.

BleakRNS 23-03-2014 21:57
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Some perspective on the Sanghi bonus situation for those unacquainted with the Arizona Regional:

Steve Sanghi is the CEO of Microchip Technology, a huge benefactor of FIRST in Arizona. Microchip actually hosts the official Arizona FIRST page. He gives out a scholarship each year at the regional and has recently taken to handing out cash rewards for actions performed in matches. In other words, this is not the first time he has done something like this. Last year, it was a prize for all teams involved in a match in which all six robots hung from the pyramid. I don't remember if there was anything the year before, but it might have had to do with triple balancing. The Arizona Regional has not been known as a hotbed of high-level FRC competition in recent memory, and that is probably the reason behind the bonuses Sanghi is awarding. The intention is good: he wants there to be an extra incentive for creating a high-functioning robot and working with alliance partners. But this year it might have been a little misguided, considering the amplification of defense in Aerial Assist.

dodar 23-03-2014 21:58
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363408)
Only if it is one-sided. This case was two sided, we both agreed to not play defense for one match. We know each other, so we knew we could trust each other to keep the agreement...and of course if anyone violated the agreement, it was "over" and back to playing defense.

Coopertition™ can take many forms.
That's your opinion, I just dont agree with it. Gratz on making it to the finals. Hope you guys can make it to STL; you always have really good bots.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 22:07
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363381)
I cannot honestly believe anyone would agree to this. That really lessens the win to me. How do you tell this year's seniors that "hey, we arent going to try to win for a chance at maybe getting some of next years' entry fee."
Believe it and it was their choice! Nobody was forced to do anything. The prospect of winning a different way by trying to win by out scoring became the challenge, and hopefully winning the bet too, even if you lost.

dodar 23-03-2014 22:13
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363424)
Believe it and it was their choice! Nobody was forced to do anything. The prospect of winning a different way by trying to win by out scoring became the challenge, and hopefully winning the bet too, even if you lost.
I just dont see how you tell your seniors that you were doing that. Telling them we are just playing to get 200+ instead of playing to win. How do you justify playing for maybe $500 for next year vs winning a blue banner and getting that invite to STL for Champs?

kuraikou 23-03-2014 22:18
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Both teams were still playing to win, they just both consensually decided to make it a match where both teams tried to score higher than the other and to get a high score.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 22:18
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleakRNS (Post 1363412)
Some perspective on the Sanghi bonus situation for those unacquainted with the Arizona Regional:

Steve Sanghi is the CEO of Microchip Technology, a huge benefactor of FIRST in Arizona. Microchip actually hosts the official Arizona FIRST page. He gives out a scholarship each year at the regional and has recently taken to handing out cash rewards for actions performed in matches. In other words, this is not the first time he has done something like this. Last year, it was a prize for all teams involved in a match in which all six robots hung from the pyramid. I don't remember if there was anything the year before, but it might have had to do with triple balancing. The Arizona Regional has not been known as a hotbed of high-level FRC competition in recent memory, and that is probably the reason behind the bonuses Sanghi is awarding. The intention is good: he wants there to be an extra incentive for creating a high-functioning robot and working with alliance partners. But this year it might have been a little misguided, considering the amplification of defense in Aerial Assist.
In defense of Mr. Steve Sanghi no one was required to do this.... its was put out there and teams took it. Take it for what it was worth, a motivating incentive. I am also interested in why everybody keeps saying why AZ is not a hot bed. I have heard this several times already. Based on population density, I think we are a hot bed. AZ has had teams on Einstein several times and AZ has threats every year. Also team 842 is a hall of fame team and 2486 is a major threat for championships chairmans this year. I guess I should not take this view of us too critically, its gives us an advantage at the championships if people are not paying attention to us. Too many times people on CD neglect Arizona and we struggle to get any attention. We are used to it, we have learned to be "mavericky". We aren't Michigan....

Coach Norm 23-03-2014 22:19
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
If you thought you had an outright chance to win the match by outscoring the other alliance, then I agree. If you did not think you had a chance to win by outscoring whether in agreement or not is another question in my mind.

Incentives should not lessen the game itself or change the strategies of the teams participating in my opinion - not matter what the level of sponsorship or involvement.

I think that the semi-finals of this regional are more realistic to what alliances should expect in elimination matches. Defense was actually played and resulted in missed shots and mishandled balls in the process.

dodar 23-03-2014 22:20
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuraikou (Post 1363434)
Both teams were still playing to win, they just both consensually decided to make it a match where both teams tried to score higher than the other and to get a high score.
But if one alliance hadnt scored over 200 in any of their previous elimination matches, than it looks to me that money led that decision to forgo the defense.

pandamonium 23-03-2014 22:21
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
So this is a very interesting scenario. So what would stop me from making the same deal with an alliance regardless of a bet? Would you want some teams playing defense free matches in an attempt to rack up high Assist scores? Would that not create an unlevel playing field for some teams that did not know there opposing alliance as well as you?

falconmaster 23-03-2014 22:24
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363428)
I just don't see how you tell your seniors that you were doing that. Telling them we are just playing to get 200+ instead of playing to win. How do you justify playing for maybe $500 for next year vs winning a blue banner and getting that invite to STL for Champs?
The seniors decided themselves. Nobody told anybody to do anything. I also don't want make opinions for others but maybe they thought they had a better feeling about going for Steve Sanghi's offer. I can speak for us, we were happy to go either way. Each challenge seemed intriguing. If you had been there, you obviously would not have agreed and we would have taken you head on.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 22:28
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium (Post 1363443)
So this is a very interesting scenario. So what would stop me from making the same deal with an alliance regardless of a bet? Would you want some teams playing defense free matches in an attempt to rack up high Assist scores? Would that not create an unlevel playing field for some teams that did not know there opposing alliance as well as you?
No rule says you have to play defense. That is for teams to decide. So to answer your question, there is nothing to stop you. You are the one that has to live with whatever you do. I have faith in FIRST participants to do what is right.

ChargerRt6 23-03-2014 22:28
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
As the driver of Team 60 I knew from the first match that our (blue) alliance was out matched. Haha, they were definitely giving us a run for our money. So, my alliance and the red alliance came to an agreement to play the next match with low stress and possible high reward. That is why there is no defense in the last match. In doing so, that allowed me personally to enjoy the last match of the regional to the fullest. :P Its all about fun anyway.

ChargerRt6 23-03-2014 22:38
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363381)
I cannot honestly believe anyone would agree to this. That really lessens the win to me. How do you tell this year's seniors that "hey, we arent going to try to win for a chance at maybe getting some of next years' entry fee."
I am a senior and I was convinced to do it. I didn't do it for me. I did it for my friends on my team and helping them have fun next year. From my 4 years of being on Team 60, I learned that fundraising is a difficult task that needs hard work. If I could work with my alliance and the opponent to make money less of an issue, I will. By the second match of finals, for me, it wasn't about winning. It was about having fun and helping the teams.

dodar 23-03-2014 22:48
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerRt6 (Post 1363464)
I am a senior and I was convinced to do it. I didn't do it for me. I did it for my friends on my team and helping them have fun next year. From my 4 years of being on Team 60, I learned that fundraising is a difficult task that needs hard work. If I could work with my alliance and the opponent to make money less of an issue, I will. By the second match of finals, for me, it wasn't about winning. It was about having fun and helping the teams.
Other than the fact they won, do you think 2403 was having a blast during F1-2 in the fact they never moved and touched the ball for less than 15 seconds the whole match?

Saying they wouldnt have wanted to drive around and play defense and push people around rather than just sit there is ludicrous.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 22:56
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerRt6 (Post 1363464)
I am a senior and I was convinced to do it. I didn't do it for me. I did it for my friends on my team and helping them have fun next year. From my 4 years of being on Team 60, I learned that fundraising is a difficult task that needs hard work. If I could work with my alliance and the opponent to make money less of an issue, I will. By the second match of finals, for me, it wasn't about winning. It was about having fun and helping the teams.
Nicely said man!

ChargerRt6 23-03-2014 22:58
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363472)
Other than the fact they won, do you think 2403 was having a blast during F1-2 in the fact they never moved and touched the ball for less than 15 seconds the whole match?

Saying they wouldnt have wanted to drive around and play defense and push people around rather than just sit there is ludicrous.
True, It is a fun to play with defense. But, what I believe is that we were having fun because we didn't have the stress of dealing with the other alliance. I know personally that defense can be fun. At that point though, we were having fun without it. I know I was. Besides, The red alliance brought it up first. And that is the truth. So, I would assume, yes 2403 was having "a blast".

Rangel(kf7fdb) 23-03-2014 22:58
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363472)
Other than the fact they won, do you think 2403 was having a blast during F1-2 in the fact they never moved and touched the ball for less than 15 seconds the whole match?

Saying they wouldnt have wanted to drive around and play defense and push people around rather than just sit there is ludicrous.
Plasma seemed pretty stoked on earning their 3rd regional win in their history.. They were picked for their great in bounding and invaluable passing skills and performed it every match with consistency. I'll let someone from plasma chime in if they want to though as I'm just speculating.

MrForbes 23-03-2014 22:59
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Norm (Post 1363436)
I think that the semi-finals of this regional are more realistic to what alliances should expect in elimination matches. Defense was actually played and resulted in missed shots and mishandled balls in the process.
Watch finals match 1, played with defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw

We were totally outgunned. Defense didn't do a dang thing for us.

Seriously...what did either side have to lose?

If you watch the quarterfinals, you'll see what alliances should expect in elimination matches.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn8...uery=qf+4+2014

I learned from Fredi years ago about paradigm change....and I think I'm not the only one who respects his ideas about it.

falconmaster 23-03-2014 23:02
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363472)
Other than the fact they won, do you think 2403 was having a blast during F1-2 in the fact they never moved and touched the ball for less than 15 seconds the whole match?

Saying they wouldnt have wanted to drive around and play defense and push people around rather than just sit there is ludicrous.
Maybe 2403 will answer themselves. I can say that they contributed 10 points every cycle. The human player through the ball to 2403 and they popped the ball up and over to us and we then took it to the truss which we through over to the other human player and then they dumped it into 2486 which then made the goal. By the way they also did that all through the finals matches and just added defense when they could. But you can ask them....

falconmaster 23-03-2014 23:04
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363484)
Watch finals match 1, played with defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw

We were totally outgunned. Defense didn't do a dang thing for us.

Seriously...what did either side have to lose?

If you watch the quarterfinals, you'll see what alliances should expect in elimination matches.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn8...uery=qf+4+2014

I learned from Fredi years ago about paradigm change....and I think I'm not the only one who respects his ideas about it.
Thanks Jim, that is the nicest thing you have ever said to me...I have a tears in my eyes......

nixiebunny 23-03-2014 23:05
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
This match showed the world of FIRST just how nice we Arizonans really are, our crazy politicians notwithstanding.

If you want controversy, try to find *any* fouls due to G40 in the Arizona regional.

MrForbes 23-03-2014 23:05
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363487)
I can say that they contributed 10 points every cycle.
You mean 20 points per cycle. In a second or two. That's the best point/time performance of any of the teams on your alliance. Steven and I were discussing that this morning.

Coach Norm 23-03-2014 23:05
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363484)
Watch finals match 1, played with defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw

We were totally outgunned. Defense didn't do a dang thing for us.

Seriously...what did either side have to lose?

If you watch the quarterfinals, you'll see what alliances should expect in elimination matches.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn8...uery=qf+4+2014

I learned from Fredi years ago about paradigm change....and I think I'm not the only one who respects his ideas about it.
I agree that the quarterfinals were more like what you should expect.

Being outgunned is not fun either.

Norman

safiq10 23-03-2014 23:07
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
I congratulate you guys for winning and making $500.

Do I agree with what you did? Not really. Would we have done the same thing? I dont know.

But as a defensive team that would have really sucked! Our team thrives on playing defense and some of the most exciting matches were matches in which someone was playing defense. Take Dallas 2014 when 3847 played defense or any of the elimination matches! They were fun and exciting (not to mention extremely difficult!)

but that is just my 2 cents congrats on the $500 and the win!

dodar 23-03-2014 23:08
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363487)
Maybe 2403 will answer themselves. I can say that they contributed 10 points every cycle. The human player through the ball to 2403 and they popped the ball up and over to us and we then took it to the truss which we through over to the other human player and then they dumped it into 2486 which then made the goal. By the way they also did that all through the finals matches and just added defense when they could. But you can ask them....
Saying "they just added defense when they could" vastly undercuts their efforts on your alliance. In the QF alone they stopped that blue alliance from scoring at least 50% more.

BleakRNS 23-03-2014 23:11
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363435)
In defense of Mr. Steve Sanghi no one was required to do this.... its was put out there and teams took it. Take it for what it was worth, a motivating incentive. I am also interested in why everybody keeps saying why AZ is not a hot bed. I have heard this several times already. Based on population density, I think we are a hot bed. AZ has had teams on Einstein several times and AZ has threats every year. Also team 842 is a hall of fame team and 2486 is a major threat for championships chairmans this year. I guess I should not take this view of us too critically, its gives us an advantage at the championships if people are not paying attention to us. Too many times people on CD neglect Arizona and we struggle to get any attention. We are used to it, we have learned to be "mavericky". We aren't Michigan....
Never said Sanghi forced anyone to do this. I was a participant on an AZ team for the last 3 years, and while there are some very good teams as you've mentioned, the regional has been overall historically weak (not as much this year, though). Last year, AZ's average winning score was more than 10 points lower than the world average. Yes, there have been Arizona teams on Einstein, but very few have even reached CMP division eliminations in recent years. Arizona's not being "neglected" in my view, there just hasn't been enough to talk about recently in terms of robots (save a few). Don't get me wrong, I've learned to love Arizona's "mavericky" style. But maybe "mavericky" isn't for the best.

Shelbers2486 23-03-2014 23:18
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by safiq10 (Post 1363494)
I congratulate you guys for winning and making $500.

Do I agree with what you did? Not really. Would we have done the same thing? I dont know.

But as a defensive team that would have really sucked! Our team thrives on playing defense and some of the most exciting matches were matches in which someone was playing defense. Take Dallas 2014 when 3847 played defense or any of the elimination matches! They were fun and exciting (not to mention extremely difficult!)

but that is just my 2 cents congrats on the $500 and the win!
The blue alliance was not actually able to score the 200 points, so no money was awarded.

waialua359 23-03-2014 23:24
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Actually, this isn't the first time 2403 has won in their home state of Arizona.
I do recall selecting them in 2010, when we won in the Colliseum. :)

falconmaster 23-03-2014 23:26
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363491)
You mean 20 points per cycle. In a second or two. That's the best point/time performance of any of the teams on your alliance. Steven and I were discussing that this morning.
Thanks Jim, you see why I am not on the drive team....

falconmaster 23-03-2014 23:38
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363496)
Saying "they just added defense when they could" vastly undercuts their efforts on your alliance. In the QF alone they stopped that blue alliance from scoring at least 50% more.
You keep looking for negatives among a whole group of people who are obviously happy about their decision. Are you a lawyer? Just kidding. Think what you want, we all stand by our decision.

dodar 23-03-2014 23:39
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363521)
You keep looking for negatives among a whole group of people who are obviously happy about their decision. Are you a lawyer? Just kidding. Think what you want, we all stand by our decision.
Im not looking for negatives, just pointed out what you said. And I bet you guys are happy, you won the regional; to which I say congrats.

seg9585 23-03-2014 23:40
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Morality and consensual agreements between opponents aside, this was by far the most boring Finals match I've ever seen in any FIRST regional ever, considering how many points were actually scored. You really wanted to end a competition like this?

falconmaster 23-03-2014 23:45
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 (Post 1363527)
Morality and consensual agreements between opponents aside, this was by far the most boring Finals match I've ever seen in any FIRST regional ever, considering how many points were actually scored. You really wanted to end a competition like this?
Well its very fortunate then that there are many regionals. Our regional is what it was. Gracious professionalism and coopertition.

Nathan Rossi 23-03-2014 23:49
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Our alliance (1492, 4183, & 2647) was also offered to put down defense (for just one match) to try and maximize both of the alliance's scores. The reason I was so skeptical about doing this was we had just spent all of our time during lunch beefing up 2647 for defense (adding 2 CIMs, extra weight, and ect.). Though, the offer was very tempting (and looking back I wish we had taken it).

We did end up losing due to 60's excellent defensive play (and 4183 unfortunately losing power in the last 40 seconds of QF4-3).

I would like to personally apologize for not taking the offer, as I was 1492's primary strategist and had a weighted opinion as to if we should've done it or not. I think both alliances could've easily gotten over 200 points.

After watching week one, I wondered if any alliances would try such a strategy (dropping defense for high scoring) I'm actually surprised we didn't see this strategy sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 (Post 1363527)
Morality and consensual agreements between opponents aside, this was by far the most boring Finals match I've ever seen in any FIRST regional ever, considering how many points were actually scored. You really wanted to end a competition like this?
As someone who was watching in person, I can tell you it was far from boring (it was in fact very exciting!).

seg9585 23-03-2014 23:50
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363533)
Well its very fortunate then that there are many regionals. Our regional is what it was. Gracious professionalism and coopertition.
Let me ask real quick, then: Would this type of match be acceptable if it was the Final match on the Einstein field? How big of a bribe would be required to make it acceptable on Einstein?

Conversely, would the teams have done this in Arizona if only $100 off was offered? Just $50 off? There must be a threshold...

Many teams and almost all spectators (and sponsor reps) only go to 1 regional so this is all they see.

Grim Tuesday 23-03-2014 23:57
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Rossi (Post 1363534)
Our alliance (1492, 4183, & 2647) was also offered to put down defense (for just one match) to try and maximize both of the alliance's scores. The reason I was so skeptical about doing this was we had just spent all of our time during lunch beefing up 2647 for defense (adding 2 CIMs, extra weight, and ect.). Though, the offer was very tempting (and looking back I wish we had taken it).

We did end up losing due to 60's excellent defensive play (and 4183 unfortunately losing power in the last 40 seconds of QF4-3).

I would like to personally apologize for not taking the offer, as I was 1492's primary strategist and had a weighted opinion as to if we should've done it or not. I think both alliances could've easily gotten over 200 points.

After watching week one, I wondered if any alliances would try such a strategy (dropping defense for high scoring) I'm actually surprised we didn't see this strategy sooner.



As someone who was watching in person, I can tell you it was far from boring (it was in fact very exciting!).
This right here is my problem with the kind of bet that requires a team to give up something. You should not have to feel bad for playing the game the way you designed your robot to do it. I believe this sponsor's heart was in the right place but it's still a very weird direction to move the game.

I also agree with the sentiment offered by seg9585. If the money is what makes it worth it, then does the amount matter?

MrForbes 23-03-2014 23:59
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Interesting questions. No one has mentioned that Mr. Sanghi also donated more money to pay for the winning alliance team's entry fees for Championships. It would be more valuable to a team to win the finals, than to get the 200 points. It might not have been as much about the money as you think.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:00
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363541)
Interesting questions. No one has mentioned that Mr. Sanghi also donated more money to pay for the winning alliance team's entry fees for Championships. It would be more valuable to a team to win the finals, than to get the 200 points. It might not have been as much about the money as you think.
Thats not what is being put across.

Answer42 24-03-2014 00:08
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
So, this was said earlier, but I didn't see it addressed. Why not just get a foul and raise the opposing alliances score? If you are serious enough to go no defense then why not give the other alliance the points they need "accidentally" when it was clear you had a 100+ point lead on them? that would be what baffles me most about this situation.

Nirvash 24-03-2014 00:12
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Answer42 (Post 1363549)
So, this was said earlier, but I didn't see it addressed. Why not just get a foul and raise the opposing alliances score? If you are serious enough to go no defense then why not give the other alliance the points they need "accidentally" when it was clear you had a 100+ point lead on them? that would be what baffles me most about this situation.
I would assume because it wouldn't be the GP thing to do? Both teams decided to play the game a certain way as a challenge, it would have been cheating that challenge to just foul up 500 points.

And as to people having an issue with this match, nowhere in the rules does it say that you must play with a certain strategy, if anything all the teams did was just Assist each other and have fun.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:14
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 (Post 1363535)
Let me ask real quick, then: Would this type of match be acceptable if it was the Final match on the Einstein field? How big of a bribe would be required to make it acceptable on Einstein?

Conversely, would the teams have done this in Arizona if only $100 off was offered? Just $50 off? There must be a threshold...

Many teams and almost all spectators (and sponsor reps) only go to 1 regional so this is all they see.
It wasn't the money, it was the challenge! There was no bribe. The whole contest was public, no shady deals. The money was incidental. The interesting thing is that all involved are happy and enjoyed the whole event. Its only been the people that were not there that seem to have difficulty with this. I wonder if teams on Einstein would ever see the other possibilities that exist in this approach of the game, seeing who can outscore the other, money aside.

Anupam Goli 24-03-2014 00:15
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Answer42 (Post 1363549)
So, this was said earlier, but I didn't see it addressed. Why not just get a foul and raise the opposing alliances score? If you are serious enough to go no defense then why not give the other alliance the points they need "accidentally" when it was clear you had a 100+ point lead on them? that would be what baffles me most about this situation.
I think the rationale behind not purposefully fouling was that both teams still wanted to try and win the match through a pure offensive standpoint, and get the 200+ points clean. If we're admonishing two alliances agreeing to play a certain way, why aren't we admonishing alliances that use their timeout for the other alliance? Every argument here could be used in an argument against giving a timeout to the other alliance.

Nathan Rossi 24-03-2014 00:16
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvash (Post 1363552)
I would assume because it wouldn't be the GP thing to do? Both teams decided to play the game a certain way as a challenge, it would have been cheating that challenge to just foul up 500 points.
^ This. It was jokingly brought up before our first match but, it woudn't have been the GP thing to do.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:17
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Would you rather watch the National Flag Football Championships or the NFL Super Bowl? Thats the difference you which you are talking about.

I could almost guarantee you 9/10 would pick the SB.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:18
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Answer42 (Post 1363549)
So, this was said earlier, but I didn't see it addressed. Why not just get a foul and raise the opposing alliances score? If you are serious enough to go no defense then why not give the other alliance the points they need "accidentally" when it was clear you had a 100+ point lead on them? that would be what baffles me most about this situation.
It wasn't the money, it was the challenge. Fouls would not be the GP way to get to the goal that Steve Sanghi wanted. He wanted to see us play the game as fast as we could with co-opertition. Getting fouls would not be in the spirit that the challenge was made.

MrForbes 24-03-2014 00:19
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
I'd rather watch NURC than any kind of football....but they're not holding it this year. Next year...watch out!

dodar 24-03-2014 00:19
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363380)
Previous match 1 match in finals with defense 225 to 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNwCVSuy1vw
after this both alliances agreed to try to get 200 point plus each to get a bet made by Steve Sanghi, to get 500 dollars off the next years registration. almost made it 301 to 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363553)
It wasn't the money, it was the challenge! There was no bribe. The whole contest was public, no shady deals. The money was incidental. The interesting thing is that all involved are happy and enjoyed the whole event. Its only been the people that were not there that seem to have difficulty with this. I wonder if teams on Einstein would ever see the other possibilities that exist in this approach of the game, seeing who can outscore the other, money aside.
Something doesnt match here.

nixiebunny 24-03-2014 00:21
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
As a spectator for the finals (we got knocked out in the quarterfinals), I found the final match to be quite enjoyable. We had just witnessed three hours of robots beating each other up. It was refreshing to watch a game with nothing but pure scoring performance.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:21
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363557)
Would you rather watch the National Flag Football Championships or the NFL Super Bowl? Thats the difference you which you are talking about.

I could almost guarantee you 9/10 would pick the SB.
What is wrong with Flag Football?

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:22
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363560)
Something doesnt match here.
Read as: We tried to match Steve Sanghi's challenge; it wasn't about the money.

As a member of the team from the stands: it really wasn't about the money, we really wanted to beat the challenge.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:24
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1363563)
Read as: We tried to match Steve Sanghi's challenge; it wasn't about the money.

As a member of the team from the stands: it really wasn't about the money, we really wanted to achieve the challenge.
I understand the point, but he and others have said they only did the challenge to get the $500 for the registration fee.

And what was so wrong as to achieve the challenge set forth by FIRST that it had to be modified by a sponsor?

seg9585 24-03-2014 00:25
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirvash (Post 1363552)
And as to people having an issue with this match, nowhere in the rules does it say that you must play with a certain strategy, if anything all the teams did was just Assist each other and have fun.
Never said it was against the rules. I'm just thinking about external impressions. I compare FRC to a major sporting event. What if the primary sponsor of the NFL told all the players in the Superbowl they would get a financial incentive if both teams scored at least 10 touchdowns? Both teams agree and play no defense. No rules were broken but I guarantee you there will be very angry football fans, especially the ones who paid $1500/ticket to see it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster
It wasn't the money, it was the challenge!
In this case, I challenge your team to see how high you can get your scores via penalties. Have your human player run out onto the field. Let a drive coach take up the controls. I wonder how many G40 violations the refs would call if the rule was violated for the entire match duration. I won't give you any money for this activity, but it would be fun to see what point value the FMS is designed to max out at, huh?

MrForbes 24-03-2014 00:26
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
I see all these people complaining about the FIRST game having perverse penalties for playing defense...then we play without defense, and still people complain.

I give up.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:30
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363560)
Something doesn't match here.
In AZ a tax credit donation is 400 dollars and the person who donates it gets it back dollar for dollar. We get many tax credit donations annually. Money was the way to get us to pay attention to the challenge. Teams spend way more than 500 dollars on stuff for just one regional. Again you are looking for stuff to win an argument. We in AZ did want we felt was in our best interest and none of us have a problem with it. Is there any AZ person posting here with your POV? Apparently there is nothing we can explain to help you understand our reasoning. We saw another way to play the game and we took it. No regrets. Feel what you want, say what you want, we can't be swayed to your reasoning either....

Anupam Goli 24-03-2014 00:30
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363568)
I see all these people complaining about the FIRST game having perverse penalties for playing defense...then we play without defense, and still people complain.

I give up.
Similarly, people complain about poorly constructed robots and the new G27 update, but praise alliances for giving up their timeout so the other alliance can repair their robots. Sometimes the FIRST community is very conflicting and confusing.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:31
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363568)
I see all these people complaining about the FIRST game having perverse penalties for playing defense...then we play without defense, and still people complain.

I give up.
How come you can say stuff simpler than me. You should be a WFA winner. Its that art of communication thing.

Nathan Rossi 24-03-2014 00:32
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes (Post 1363568)
I see all these people complaining about the FIRST game having perverse penalties for playing defense...then we play without defense, and still people complain.

I give up.
The same can be said for the G27 update, but that's for another topic.

nixiebunny 24-03-2014 00:34
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 (Post 1363566)
Never said it was against the rules. I'm just thinking about external impressions. I compare FRC to a major sporting event. What if the primary sponsor of the NFL told all the players in the Superbowl they would get a financial incentive if both teams scored at least 10 touchdowns?
The match in question was the last match of an event with 100 matches played. Your comparison to a sporting event would actually be the equivalent of the two teams making ONE PLAY without defense.

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:34
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363565)
And what was so wrong as to achieve the challenge set forth by FIRST that it had to be modified by a sponsor?
I need some clarification... what exactly was FIRST's challenge?

It seems to me that the collaboration between the alliances in the finals to set a high score was a very "GP" performance, even neglecting the achievement goal set forth by one of our regionals primary sponsors.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:35
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nixiebunny (Post 1363578)
The match in question was the last match of an event with 100 matches played. Your comparison to a sporting event would actually be the equivalent of the two teams making ONE PLAY without defense.
Actually it would be a better comparison to the 2nd half of a Championship Game.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:37
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 (Post 1363566)
Never said it was against the rules. I'm just thinking about external impressions. I compare FRC to a major sporting event. What if the primary sponsor of the NFL told all the players in the Superbowl they would get a financial incentive if both teams scored at least 10 touchdowns? Both teams agree and play no defense. No rules were broken but I guarantee you there will be very angry football fans, especially the ones who paid $1500/ticket to see it.

My response to your first part: We are not paid athletes and the audience was not upset, on the contrary they got more excited. Plus there was no admission fee. Your analogy is not accurate. The money was not there to get us to give up competing, just the method of competing under the GP umbrella. Steve Sanghi is on the board of directors of FIRST.


In this case, I challenge your team to see how high you can get your scores via penalties. Have your human player run out onto the field. Let a drive coach take up the controls. I wonder how many G40 violations the refs would call if the rule was violated for the entire match duration. I won't give you any money for this activity, but it would be fun to see what point value the FMS is designed to max out at, huh?
I don't understand the point of this avenue of discussion. I can't respond to this one.....If you can't see what we were trying to do then I can't help you.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:37
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1363579)
I need some clarification... what exactly was FIRST's challenge?

It seems to me that the collaboration between the alliances in the finals to set a high score was a very "GP" performance, even neglecting the achievement goal set forth by one of our regionals primary sponsors.
FIRST didnt set up a good portion of the rulebook to govern defensive play just for alliances to completely disregard it by saying we wont touch you if you dont touch us. The game was made to have defense.

Would you consider this "GP" if this was performed during quals to get as many assist points as possible?

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:38
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363583)
Would you consider this "GP" if this was performed during quals to get as many assist points as possible?
Yes.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:39
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1363584)
Yes.
All I can say to that is wow.

falconmaster 24-03-2014 00:40
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1363579)
I need some clarification... what exactly was FIRST's challenge?

It seems to me that the collaboration between the alliances in the finals to set a high score was a very "GP" performance, even neglecting the achievement goal set forth by one of our regionals primary sponsors.
He is also on the board of directors of FIRST.

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:41
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363586)
All I can say to that is wow.
Me too! :eek:

nixiebunny 24-03-2014 00:43
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363581)
Actually it would be a better comparison to the 2nd half of a Championship Game.
I think we all knew where the second match would have gone if it was played with defense. You weren't there, we were.

Anupam Goli 24-03-2014 00:43
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1363586)
All I can say to that is wow.
And I counter your wow with this. 6v0 is not an alien concept to FRC, and so what if both alliances in quals agree to play no defense to maximize ranking points for each alliance? There's even more incentive to do so if none of the teams are close to a picking position in the rankings.

dodar 24-03-2014 00:43
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nixiebunny (Post 1363591)
I think we all knew where the second match would have gone if it was played with defense. You weren't there, we were.
Video works pretty well.

nixiebunny 24-03-2014 00:46
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Have any of you watched the 1984 movie Revenge of the Nerds? It was filmed in Tucson AZ, where I live.

The relevant scene shows the nerds vs the jocks in a tug-of-war contest. The nerds all let go of the rope simultaneously, causing all the jocks to fall backwards over each other. The lead nerd then says calmly, "You win."

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:46
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1363593)
And I counter your wow with this. 6v0 is not an alien concept to FRC, and so what if both alliances in quals agree to play no defense to maximize ranking points for each alliance? There's even more incentive to do so if none of the teams are close to a picking position in the rankings.
I would argue that the 6v0 matches from 2010 are not even on the same page. Agreeing to play with no defense says "I bet we can fire our guns faster than yours" rather than "lets all shoot our guns in the same direction".

dodar 24-03-2014 00:47
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1363593)
And I counter your wow with this. 6v0 is not an alien concept to FRC, and so what if both alliances in quals agree to play no defense to maximize ranking points for each alliance? There's even more incentive to do so if none of the teams are close to a picking position in the rankings.
That was what I said. And I would frown upon those teams doing that as well. If you feel like you deserve to be ranked higher, earn the points by being able to play through defense and get them. Being able to score through defense will get you picked alot easier then telling a team that you are better at trying to get teams to not play defense if you wont.

I was also still a student when the 6v0 happened in 2010, I did think what happened was cool but I never thought of it as THE high score and I still didnt like how those teams did that towards raising their ranking scores.

Nathan Rossi 24-03-2014 00:51
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEl2QoDSU

Here, watch the announcement yourself.

TheOtherGuy 24-03-2014 00:54
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Well, this is one of the more interesting threads on CD I never thought I'd read!

The match was exciting to watch as a spectator. Everyone around me was out of their seat. That match was nothing short of inspiring.

seg9585 24-03-2014 00:56
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1363582)
I don't understand the point of this avenue of discussion. I can't respond to this one.....If you can't see what we were trying to do then I can't help you.
I see what you're trying to do -- you're adding a Home Run Derby to World Series Game 7. Home Run Derbys are very exciting for the spectators.

I'd be fascinated to go to an event specifically designed to see how many legitimate points you can score in the game. Maybe as a scrimmage type thing.

I have been a FIRST mentor for 7 years and last year was the first time a team I've mentored made it into the Finals matches of regional elim (and won it) -- an experience I will never forget but something the team worked incredibly hard to achieve for many years while also getting lucky and having a strong alliance.

Some teams win a Regional every year and take it for granted, and I feel like an exhibition in Finals like this kind of makes a mockery out of the situation. I'm specifically talking about the fact that the "best" robots chose to sit there for 90% of the match while their teammates handled the ball rather than making any attempt to improve their chances of winning by playing the game.

s_forbes 24-03-2014 00:57
Re: 301 points! and could have done more
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy (Post 1363602)
That match was nothing short of inspiring.
Oh, you... that's not what this competition is all about! :rolleyes:


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