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Hallry 25-03-2014 13:26

[FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Posted on the FRC Blog, 3/25/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...T-Championship

Quote:

More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship

Blog Date: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 11:17

In this week’s Team Update, you’ll be seeing some additional changes we’re making for the FIRST Championship.

The two significant changes we wanted to make from an FRC perspective with respect to the FIRST Championship was to get all teams 10 qualification matches and to make the closing ceremonies shorter while still maintaining the excitement and impact of the Championship overall. We’ve already blogged about the schedule changes we’re making to get teams their 10 matches. Today, we’re announcing changes to awards and timeout rules to help keep us on track during the final day of the event while still making this the best Championship experience possible for teams.

Last year we moved a few awards, including the Rookie awards, to the Division level. This change was generally well-received. It sent a greater number of teams home from Championship with the recognition they deserved. At the 2014 FIRST Championship, only the Chairman’s Award winner, the Finalists, and the Winners will be recognized during closing ceremonies itself. Most other team awards will be presented at the Division level, including the Engineering Inspiration Award. Some awards will be presented at other times during the event. Please see today’s Team Update for details. Any team award marked ‘FIRST CMP” that is not Chairman’s, Finalists, or Winners, will be presented at some other time during the event, rather than at closing. More details will be provided later on this.

The awards ceremony on the Division fields will feel more like a traditional awards ceremony, and a greater number of teams overall at Championship will be recognized. This supports our goal of ensuring teams are appropriately honored for their accomplishments, while at the same time helping us keep the FIRST Championship closing ceremonies to a reasonable length. With the move of the Engineering Inspiration Award, this award becomes unequivocally the top award at the Division level. To help recognize that, all four Division Engineering Inspiration Award winners at the 2014 FIRST Championship will be awarded an automatic berth at the 2015 FIRST Championship! In addition, thanks to the efforts of FIRST friend and supporter Dave Lavery, NASA will be paying the2015 FIRST Championship Registration fees for those four teams. Wondering about sponsorship for the Chairman’s Award winning team to the 2015 Championship? We can’t make any promises, but we are working on that.

In addition, in place of traditional timeouts called by teams during the Einstein matches, a field timeout of six minutes will automatically be inserted between every match. This will help us reduce the variability in the amount of time between matches and allow us to better plan the flow of those matches. Also, because of the reduction of the number of awards being presented during closing ceremonies, we will no longer be ping-ponging between matches and awards or speakers. Once the Chairman’s Award has been presented and our limited number of speakers have spoken, we will switch to matches with some fun and interesting elements during those planned six minutes between matches. We’re definitely going for that ‘Less Talk, More Rock’ vibe during the 2014 FIRST Championship closing!

Frank
Interesting change for E.I. at Champs...It'll also be interesting to see how the constant 6 minute breaks between every single Einstein match turns out, especially with less awards filling the gaps. +1 for 10 Qualification Matches though!

P.S.: The past two FRC Blog posts before this weren't posted on Chief Delphi (Hmm I wonder whose job THAT is...), but here is the 'Stem Impact Awards' FRC Blog Post that was posted on 3/14/24 and here is the 'FMS Progress, Team Updates, FIRST Values' FRC Blog Post that was posted on 3/21/14.

cadandcookies 25-03-2014 13:34

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
I like it.

Does make me curious as to how they'll be awarding division awards (in terms of scheduling and relative to the Einstein matches), though.

AllenGregoryIV 25-03-2014 13:41

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1364599)
I like it.

Does make me curious as to how they'll be awarding division awards (in terms of scheduling and relative to the Einstein matches), though.

I like this idea as well. More awards are better for teams.

The time between the end of division awards and the Einstein show starting has always been pretty long but most teams use it to find seats. It's going to be interesting to see how that goes this year with the division award ceremony being more important for teams.

Chris is me 25-03-2014 13:46

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
I think it's a good change. More awards at the Championship level makes things better for everyone, and a predictable Einstein must be nice.

Personally I wish they would do awards in between matches at the division level rather than after. People are in a bit of a hurry to claim the limited Einstein seating after their division ends, and having awards between matches both gives teams more time and ensures the entire division is present and attentive.

Damiaen_Florian 25-03-2014 13:47

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
This is actually awesome, by Saturday many teams are tired from a long week of competing and preparing for this event, the long speeches and awards seem to drag on even longer because of this. This is a wonderful fix to time constraints and they even found a way to be able to award more teams with engineering inspiration and other various awards.

Akash Rastogi 25-03-2014 13:49

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1364603)
I think it's a good change. More awards at the Championship level makes things better for everyone, and a predictable Einstein must be nice.

Personally I wish they would do awards in between matches at the division level rather than after. People are in a bit of a hurry to claim the limited Einstein seating after their division ends, and having awards between matches both gives teams more time and ensures the entire division is present and attentive.

Leave a small group of students in the division seating to get the award if they win one.

Hallry 25-03-2014 13:52

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1364605)
Leave a small group of students in the division seating to get the award if they win one.

You wouldn't want to be there if your team wins E.I. for your division?

Dancin103 25-03-2014 13:54

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1364599)
I like it.

Does make me curious as to how they'll be awarding division awards (in terms of scheduling and relative to the Einstein matches), though.

I personally think it's a great idea, there are so many stories that deserve being heard. As for timing, I feel like there is always plenty of time after matches finish... I anticipate more judges at championship due to this change.

This to me will be a great change.

Dancin103 25-03-2014 13:56

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1364605)
Leave a small group of students in the division seating to get the award if they win one.

Why wouldn't you want your whole team to be there to celebrate? Winning an award at championships is something you would really want the whole team (whole team that traveled) to be there for, it is an experience like no other.

Akash Rastogi 25-03-2014 14:01

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1364607)
You wouldn't want to be there if your team wins E.I. for your division?

Did I say you should do this? No. I'm offering a simple suggestion if a team wants good seats for Einstein.

AdamHeard 25-03-2014 14:07

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1364613)
Did I say you should do this? No. I'm offering a simple suggestion if a team wants good seats for Einstein.

Offering a solution reads the same as suggesting one should do it...

tim-tim 25-03-2014 14:11

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1364618)
Offering a solution reads the same as suggesting one should do it...

Agreed.

Thad House 25-03-2014 14:12

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Last year they did awards right before alliance selection. Maybe they'll do that again for the awards, but still make it feel like an awards ceremony.

Carolyn_Grace 25-03-2014 14:13

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1364618)
Offering a solution reads the same as suggesting one should do it...

Nope. Stahp. Please keep the drama out of this thread.

CD has too much drama right now, and nitpicking how and what others are saying isn't the best way of handling things in the current state of CD and FIRST. Let's go with trying to decipher intent and assume that intent is positive interaction.

Dancin103 25-03-2014 14:14

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
It will be like having 4 events in one building, should be different, but I think it will actually be a good different...

OZ_341 25-03-2014 14:21

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancin103 (Post 1364623)
It will be like having 4 events in one building, should be different, but I think it will actually be a good different...

I agree with this crazy blonde. :)
I think this is a great change and was well overdue.
I appreciate that FIRST made this move.
Divisions will feel more like a large regional and begin to hold their own meaning.

AllenGregoryIV 25-03-2014 14:22

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1364620)
Last year they did awards right before alliance selection. Maybe they'll do that again for the awards, but still make it feel like an awards ceremony.

Seems like a good idea, gives teams a chance to get their pick lists in order. That might make for an emotional roller coaster of just winning an award and moving right into waiting to see if you get selected but teams can handle that.

This does mean that for most teams their chance of winning anything would be over by noon on Saturday but again at championship this isn't much of a problem.

DCA Fan 25-03-2014 14:27

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Definitely in favor of this idea. Looking forward to seeing what gets put into the timeout slots - I hope at least one of them is the Chairman's video.

Koko Ed 25-03-2014 14:32

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1364613)
Did I say you should do this? No. I'm offering a simple suggestion if a team wants good seats for Einstein.

The only way to get good seats on Einstein is to have your team participating on Einstein.

Tungrus 25-03-2014 14:38

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
OMG! Everyone seems to be happy about something this season! Awesome...goodluck to you all.

nlknauss 25-03-2014 14:44

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OZ_341 (Post 1364630)
I agree with this crazy blonde. :)
I think this is a great change and was well overdue.
I appreciate that FIRST made this move.
Divisions will feel more like a large regional and begin to hold their own meaning.

I agree on every point :)

Holding an awards ceremony for every division really does turn it into more of a regional (or dare I say a super-regional) kind of format. There's no downside to giving out more awards and recognition to teams. I've always wondered about about machine features and the teams who win awards during worlds but have never been able to make a connection because the award winners are likely to be outside of my division.

Awesome move!

Koko Ed 25-03-2014 14:56

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OZ_341 (Post 1364630)
I agree with this crazy blonde. :)
I think this is a great change and was well overdue.
I appreciate that FIRST made this move.
Divisions will feel more like a large regional and begin to hold their own meaning.

Cassie aint crazy. She's just dangerously different.:cool:

BrendanB 25-03-2014 15:00

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Good move FIRST!!! With 400+ teams attending it is great to see more teams being recognized for their work!

Yes it means you might have to stick around on your division longer and possibly lose out on seats but each team needs to make their own decisions.

Libby K 25-03-2014 15:17

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
This. is. awesome. Good move from FIRST.

Dancin103 25-03-2014 15:47

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1364657)
Cassie aint crazy. She's just dangerously different.:cool:

Ha! Oh boy, idk if that is a good thing or a bad thing! :yikes:

I can be a bit crazy though. ;)

waialua359 25-03-2014 15:50

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
First,
more robots get to make eliminations at CMPS.
Next,
more division awards such as EI.

That is definitely moving in the right direction!

My wish for next year,
Crown Division CA. Then of the 4 that win, choose the overall winner on Einstein for the CCA!
In the past, they had CCA runner ups. This would be a great way to bring back the runner ups again.

Dancin103 25-03-2014 15:53

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1364681)
My wish for next year,
Crown Division CA. Then of the 4 that win, choose the overall winner on Einstein for the CCA!
In the past, they had CCA runner ups. This would be a great way to bring back the runner ups again.

This - would be awesome, and a step in the right direction!

Chris Hibner 25-03-2014 15:54

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Wow, an entire thread with positive comments. I must be on the wrong forum... but my URL still says chiefdelphi.com. Hmmmm...

cgmv123 25-03-2014 16:06

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1364681)
My wish for next year,
Crown Division CA. Then of the 4 that win, choose the overall winner on Einstein for the CCA!
In the past, they had CCA runner ups. This would be a great way to bring back the runner ups again.

I'd rather they name 3-4 finalists, regardless of division assignment with one of them being the CCA winner, at the start of the Einstein ceremony and announce the winning team at the end. They want the Chairman's winners down there to watch with Dean and Woodie, but the most important award still gets to be announced at the end.

Jessica Boucher 25-03-2014 16:41

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
FWIW, there were "Chairman's finalists" back in the late 90s / early 2000s - nice, but also frustrating for the teams involved. Take the good with the bad.

cadandcookies 25-03-2014 16:47

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica Boucher (Post 1364705)
FWIW, there were "Chairman's finalists" back in the late 90s / early 2000s - nice, but also frustrating for the teams involved. Take the good with the bad.

That's part of why I like the "Division Winners" idea-- teams get recognized without directly being called out as being mere "runners up" for the award. I like the idea of division awards starting to actually mean something on their own, and being recognized as achievements in their own right.

Overall, great step towards bolding the R in FIRST

OZ_341 25-03-2014 16:52

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1364637)
The only way to get good seats on Einstein is to have your team participating on Einstein.

Amen to that!
I not sure what motivates me more, the actually winning or just the dream of getting a good seat. :)

Koko Ed 25-03-2014 16:56

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OZ_341 (Post 1364719)
Amen to that!
I not sure what motivates me more, the actually winning or just the dream of getting a good seat. :)

After working Einstein in 2012 I'm really not all that eager to go back myself.

Siri 25-03-2014 17:18

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1364721)
After working Einstein in 2012 I'm really not all that eager to go back myself.

Yeah, the view from the pit is pretty terrible, really. Sorry to disappoint, Al! ;)

This is great, FIRST. Continuous improvement. I'm also personally happy about the more predictable timing between Einstein matches. None of us want more field errors on Einstein, but having time--known time--between matches after such errors would teams help a lot.

lemiant 25-03-2014 17:49

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
I really like this change. I'm especially optimistic about the flow of einstein really helping make the biggest stage as exciting as it can be. I wonder if FIRST would consider staggering the lengths of the field time-outs little. I know if I was playing on Einstein I'd happily take four minute timeouts in semis if I got an 8 minute timeout in finals, since I have more matches to get ready.

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot we don't have quarters on Einstein.

Siri 25-03-2014 22:15

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lemiant (Post 1364744)
I really like this change. I'm especially optimistic about the flow of einstein really helping make the biggest stage as exciting as it can be. I wonder if FIRST would consider staggering the lengths of the field time-outs little. I know if I was playing on Einstein I'd happily take four minute timeouts in quarters if I got an 8 minute timeout in finals, since I have so many more matches to get ready.

There are no quarters on Einstein?

Grim Tuesday 25-03-2014 23:04

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1364731)
Yeah, the view from the pit is pretty terrible, really. Sorry to disappoint, Al! ;)

This is great, FIRST. Continuous improvement. I'm also personally happy about the more predictable timing between Einstein matches. None of us want more field errors on Einstein, but having time--known time--between matches after such errors would teams help a lot.

I've heard from our 2012 drive team that the only worse seats are the ones for the backup bots. Though they do tell an amusing story about Koko Ed kicking out two drunks who somehow wandered onto the Einstein backstage (remember the tornado? I think they just pulled in random people off the street) and wanted to 'flip the bird to the whole world'...

Whippet 26-03-2014 09:40

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner (Post 1364686)
Wow, an entire thread with positive comments. I must be on the wrong forum... but my URL still says chiefdelphi.com. Hmmmm...

But this update interrupts my workflow! Now I have to keep all four streams running even longer...

:rolleyes:

Woetie 26-03-2014 11:17

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Great improvement by FIRST. More teams that get reconised by FIRST for there outstanding work!

I have one questiong though, hopefully some one can anser it for me:
Do you only qualify for E.I. if you have won this award at regional level (the same thing that goes for chairmans) or do all the 100 teams in that division qualify for E.I.?

Can't wait to see all the teams in St. Louis again this year!

Greetings from Team 4481 The Rembrandts, The Netherlands

2014 NC Regional Engineering Inspiration winner
2013 NC Regional Rookie All Star winner

brandon.cottrell 26-03-2014 14:29

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Alright. I'll be the first person to say I'm not so sure about this.

While I like the idea of certain awards being district level, because many teams deserve Quality awards, Innovation in control and Industrial design; I feel like with certain awards making them district level extremely decreases their sentimental worth. With a lot of teams it's difficult to explain awards like Chairman's to people outside of FIRST, but with things like Imagery it's as simple as: "They said we were the best looking out of the ~200 teams there". Now it's something more like: "They said we were the best looking, but only out of the 60 we were with and 3 other teams also won this award and they were really cool too."

The other thing that puzzles me is FIRST tries to stress that EI is not a "second place" to Chairman's. But now that 4 teams win it a year as opposed to 1, and the Championship eligibility is now only for 1 year, they are very unequal (Also on a side note, has anyone noticed that they call it a "Regional Chairman's Award" and an "Engineering Inspiration award"?).

While I can't really argue with the way FIRST works, and I'm very gracious to be in it, this kinda gets to me.

AdamHeard 26-03-2014 14:32

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon1266 (Post 1365162)
Alright. I'll be the first person to say I'm not so sure about this.

While I like the idea of certain awards being district level, because many teams deserve Quality awards, Innovation in control and Industrial design; I feel like with certain awards making them district level extremely decreases their sentimental worth. With a lot of teams it's difficult to explain awards like Chairman's to people outside of FIRST, but with things like Imagery it's as simple as: "They said we were the best looking out of the ~200 teams there". Now it's something more like: "They said we were the best looking, but only out of the 60 we were with and 3 other teams also won this award and they were really cool too."

The other thing that puzzles me is FIRST tries to stress that EI is not a "second place" to Chairman's. But now that 4 teams win it a year as opposed to 1, and the Championship eligibility is now only for 1 year, they are very unequal (Also on a side note, has anyone noticed that they call it a "Regional Chairman's Award" and an "Engineering Inspiration award").

While I can't really argue with the way FIRST works, and I'm very gracious to be in it, this kinda gets to me.

400 teams at champs, ~100 per division. Still a prestiguous award.

Also, EI has always only given 1 year of qual. Only Champ Chairman's gets lifetime.

AllenGregoryIV 26-03-2014 14:36

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon1266 (Post 1365162)
Alright. I'll be the first person to say I'm not so sure about this.

While I like the idea of certain awards being district level, because many teams deserve Quality awards, Innovation in control and Industrial design; I feel like with certain awards making them district level extremely decreases their sentimental worth. With a lot of teams it's difficult to explain awards like Chairman's to people outside of FIRST, but with things like Imagery it's as simple as: "They said we were the best looking out of the ~200 teams there". Now it's something more like: "They said we were the best looking, but only out of the 60 we were with and 3 other teams also won this award and they were really cool too."

The other thing that puzzles me is FIRST tries to stress that EI is not a "second place" to Chairman's. But now that 4 teams win it a year as opposed to 1, and the Championship eligibility is now only for 1 year, they are very unequal (Also on a side note, has anyone noticed that they call it a "Regional Chairman's Award" and an "Engineering Inspiration award").

While I can't really argue with the way FIRST works, and I'm very gracious to be in it, this kinda gets to me.

It's out of closer to a 100 teams for each division so it's not that much different. Also it gives more teams a chance to win. How different is it really when you go back home and tell your supporters. They won't even know the difference unless you point it out.

Engineering inspiration isn't 2nd place chairman's and now that is very clear. It's judged differently and now it's awarded differently as well. Championship EI has been a bit of a strange award for awhile anyway. It was often rather quickly overshadowed by the CCA winner. I think by giving it out at the division level it will actually get more recognition. Overall a good change for FRC.

Mr. Rip 26-03-2014 14:56

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1364681)
First,

My wish for next year,
Crown Division CA. Then of the 4 that win, choose the overall winner on Einstein for the CCA!
In the past, they had CCA runner ups. This would be a great way to bring back the runner ups again.

Great suggestion Glenn.

Mr. Rip

rsisk 26-03-2014 15:22

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Woetie (Post 1365075)
Great improvement by FIRST. More teams that get reconised by FIRST for there outstanding work!

I have one questiong though, hopefully some one can anser it for me:
Do you only qualify for E.I. if you have won this award at regional level (the same thing that goes for chairmans) or do all the 100 teams in that division qualify for E.I.?

Can't wait to see all the teams in St. Louis again this year!

Greetings from Team 4481 The Rembrandts, The Netherlands

2014 NC Regional Engineering Inspiration winner
2013 NC Regional Rookie All Star winner

Championship EI is judged the same way as regional EI, by the pit judges. All teams in the division would be eligible. No inside info, just my best informed guess based on past history

Woetie 26-03-2014 15:29

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1365192)
Championship EI is judged the same way as regional EI, by the pit judges. All teams in the division would be eligible. No inside info, just my best informed guess based on past history

Oke, well that seems fair. Thanks for explaining :)

dag0620 26-03-2014 15:36

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1365192)
Championship EI is judged the same way as regional EI, by the pit judges. All teams in the division would be eligible. No inside info, just my best informed guess based on past history

Also there is a difference between the two awards. EI puts a lot more emphasis on STEM Outreach specifically, while Chairman's tends to look at both Outreach, Community Service and helping FIRST grow. So unless you restructure the awards across the board, you couldn't use EI winners as feeders for CCA.

Siri 26-03-2014 16:23

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Woetie (Post 1365199)
Oke, well that seems fair. Thanks for explaining :)

In fact, there's at least one team who's actually taken home Worlds EI without a Regional one. Hawaiian Kids? I think.

FIRST: Awesome changes. Next request for awards - what is EI?

Invictus3593 21-04-2014 09:05

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancin103 (Post 1364623)
It will be like having 4 events in one building, should be different, but I think it will actually be a good different...

4 FRC events, then you've got FTC and FLL in the same arena as well XD

crake 21-04-2014 09:42

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Invictus3593 (Post 1377155)
4 FRC events, then you've got FTC and FLL in the same arena as well XD

FTC is a effectively a double event with 128 teams in 2 divisions, FLL is a "very large" event with 80 teams, and don't forget Jr. FLL with another 40 teams. So you have 8 events going on!

Mike Schreiber 21-04-2014 09:51

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Edit: I totally missed Brandon's Post (not sure how) I completely agree with you and had the same thoughts haha

Am I the only one who is a little disappointed in this change? I understand the reason this was done, and I know it's not going to change back.

With certain awards I actually like this change. I like having 4 EI winners, partially because it is already basically (IMO) used as a runner up for Chairman's. Having 4 RAS winners is very encouraging for rookie teams.

I know FIRST likes to spread the wealth and the more people that go home with hardware the greater the feeling of accomplishment everyone has collectively.

My main point is that it is nice to say that "We were the best in the division." But that is so much less awesome to say than, "We were the best in the world." One of the highlights of my FIRST career was winning Motorola Quality in 2008 at the championship. I don't think sharing that feeling of accomplishment with 3 other teams would have had the same effect.

How will we ever know if we're better than the Cheesy Poofs? Or Simbotics? (Go ahead, tell me that's not what FIRST is about)

I also liked robot awards being on Einstein because you got to see robots you never played against (but were still competing with for awards). Now unless you are up for Chairman's or you make it to Einstein you are really only in a quarter of World Championship.

Libby K 21-04-2014 13:14

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber (Post 1377177)
I like having 4 EI winners, partially because it is already basically (IMO) used as a runner up for Chairman's.

Enjoyed reading the rest of your thoughts, but EVERY TIME this comes up I feel compelled to pop in to the discussion.

Nope. EI is NOT, and should not be, a runner-up for the Chairman's Award. Separate judges, no presentation (at regional events/CMP... IMO the district system of 'presenting' for EI is kind of odd, and makes it too easy to think that it's runner-up to CA). Similar objectives? Yes, but not the same. Chairman's is the gold standard for changing culture, where EI might be a good sign that you're moving in the right direction.

Andrew Schreiber 21-04-2014 13:32

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber (Post 1377177)
Edit: I totally missed Brandon's Post (not sure how) I completely agree with you and had the same thoughts haha

Am I the only one who is a little disappointed in this change? I understand the reason this was done, and I know it's not going to change back.

With certain awards I actually like this change. I like having 4 EI winners, partially because it is already basically (IMO) used as a runner up for Chairman's. Having 4 RAS winners is very encouraging for rookie teams.

I know FIRST likes to spread the wealth and the more people that go home with hardware the greater the feeling of accomplishment everyone has collectively.

My main point is that it is nice to say that "We were the best in the division." But that is so much less awesome to say than, "We were the best in the world." One of the highlights of my FIRST career was winning Motorola Quality in 2008 at the championship. I don't think sharing that feeling of accomplishment with 3 other teams would have had the same effect.

How will we ever know if we're better than the Cheesy Poofs? Or Simbotics? (Go ahead, tell me that's not what FIRST is about)

I also liked robot awards being on Einstein because you got to see robots you never played against (but were still competing with for awards). Now unless you are up for Chairman's or you make it to Einstein you are really only in a quarter of World Championship.


While I understand what you are getting at I can tell you that one of the hardest parts about judging at regionals is knowing that there are deserving teams that you CANNOT give an award for. We agonize over that. And the events I've done have been small (most of them sub 40 teams) and we still agonize over teams that deserve to have their efforts and innovations recognized but we can't. I can scarcely imagine what it would be like if for every one team we couldn't recognize we had 10... How do I decide which is more deserving of a quality award; a team that designed their transmissions to be easily swappable, a team that did analysis on every part of their machine and optimized each structure according to estimated loads, or a team that has a process built into their workflow with several QA checks in place? Who gets the award? It freaking sucks to decide that one.

Instead of viewing it was sharing the honor view it as FIRST and the judges recognizing more of our peers.

Mike Schreiber 21-04-2014 16:33

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1377267)
Enjoyed reading the rest of your thoughts, but EVERY TIME this comes up I feel compelled to pop in to the discussion.

Nope. EI is NOT, and should not be, a runner-up for the Chairman's Award. Separate judges, no presentation (at regional events/CMP... IMO the district system of 'presenting' for EI is kind of odd, and makes it too easy to think that it's runner-up to CA). Similar objectives? Yes, but not the same. Chairman's is the gold standard for changing culture, where EI might be a good sign that you're moving in the right direction.

Well for what it's worth I am from a district system (IMO is kinda the key here) where we DO present for the award like Chairman's.

I also tend to see a pattern. In the time I have been involved in FIRST 1/2 of the Championship EI winners have gone on to win Chairman's in the next few years.

2005 - 842 wins EI, 2008 - they win CA
2006 - 365 wins EI, 2007 - they win CA
2008 - 359 wins EI, 2011 - they win CA
2009 - 341 wins EI, 2010 - they win CA

One is about inspiring others, the other is about being a role model team, but the teams that inspire their community on level impactful enough to win EI at champs ARE role model teams.

Libby K 21-04-2014 16:50

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber (Post 1377370)
Well for what it's worth I am from a district system (IMO is kinda the key here) where we DO present for the award like Chairman's.

I also tend to see a pattern. In the time I have been involved in FIRST 1/2 of the Championship EI winners have gone on to win Chairman's in the next few years.

2005 - 842 wins EI, 2008 - they win CA
2006 - 365 wins EI, 2007 - they win CA
2008 - 359 wins EI, 2011 - they win CA
2009 - 341 wins EI, 2010 - they win CA

One is about inspiring others, the other is about being a role model team, but the teams that inspire their community on level impactful enough to win EI at champs ARE role model teams.

I'm from a district system too... Still don't like the presenting-for-EI thing. To me, it perpetuates the idea that it's a runner-up to CA, which is just untrue. In most cases across the community, teams still don't present for EI. Districts are the exception there.

That's an interesting pattern - didn't realize that. However, I still think it's pretty great to have four potential future-hall-of-famers than just one each year. I think I like the idea of sharing the honors across the divisions, but we'll see how it pans out when we all get there, I suppose.

AlexD744 21-04-2014 23:04

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
I think "presenting" might be the wrong word. At least at the NEDCMP, the judges did not have the teams present, but instead had an interview similar to to a pit interview, but just in a separate room, so that the teams not competing with the robots wouldn't have a different experience than those who were. The judging for EI can be done by the same judges or by separate judges than those who do Chairman's. This might help differentiate it from being a "second place Chairman's." (although, I've already always seen it as a very similar award to Chairman's)

I'm curious, are other District Championships having the EI teams do a formal presentation? Or doing the same as in NE?

OZ_341 21-04-2014 23:16

Re: [FRC Blog] More ‘Something New’ at the FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1377383)
I'm from a district system too... Still don't like the presenting-for-EI thing. To me, it perpetuates the idea that it's a runner-up to CA, which is just untrue. In most cases across the community, teams still don't present for EI. Districts are the exception there.

That's an interesting pattern - didn't realize that. However, I still think it's pretty great to have four potential future-hall-of-famers than just one each year. I think I like the idea of sharing the honors across the divisions, but we'll see how it pans out when we all get there, I suppose.

The pattern is interesting but just to clarify..... In the year that we won the Champs EI (2009) we were not a Chairmans candidate at Champs. We failed to win the Regional CA in Philly that year. So winning EI at Champs in 2009 was one of our proudest moments and it did not feel like we were a runner-up to anything. Also I think I will like the new awards system. It may need some future tweaks but I think its heading in the right direction.


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