Video Stealing
 

I am a fan of competition it lowers prices and delivers better products to consumers. The blue alliance has done a great job of an open source place to where you can get photos and videos of teams, and IMO saving the history of first. What the blue alliance does is great. They ask for donations of videos and pictures and never posts things that they do not have permission to post.

This leads me to my title. There are is a new site(s) that are taking videos from youtube and uploading them to their own site(s). It is being done without permission from the owners of those videos, and frankly its wrong. While FIRST events are open to the public and anyone can record them this does not mean you can then take the videos they (the owners) recorded and use them as your own. It would be different if you (the video stealers) were using "Fair Use" (Examples of fair use are works used for news reporting, criticism, comment, scientific research, teaching, and parody.), But this is not what happening. The videos are being used completely unedited just to promote their own site(s).

My suggestion to the group(s) doing this is to go invent a better mouse trap if you want to compete with the blue alliance, but stealing videos is not the path I would recommend. I am also sure the teams your stealing the videos from would also appreciate it.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I agree that ripping and re-uploading other people's videos without permission is a problem, especially if the re-uploader is personally gaining something from the action. There was a thread not too long ago that went down a similar path of reasoning here.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I didn't know this was such a huge problem. (As in I didn't know people were doing it.)

Whenever I use someone else's videos on my team's site. Which I may have done once. It was using the YouTube embedding function. Therefore I never took/stole their content at all I just "shared" it. I think the whole concept of sharing video/photo content vs stealing content is a bit mixed up and because of how public and open places like YouTube are the lines between sharing and stealing are somewhat hard to see.

I get your problem and I agree, but I also think it's too easy for people to take content for themselves and Google/YouTube should have fixed the big allowing such easy downloading of video content ages ago.

Re: Video Stealing
 

You should be fine if you use the embed function on youtube. If you don't want your videos embedded on other people's sites then you can turn this off in your video settings on youtube.

Now if they are downloading them and reposting them without the youtube embedding then it is wrong.

Re: Video Stealing
 

This is not about sharing videos.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Could you share with us which site this is? Or at least PM it to me as I would be interested to know.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'm sure there may be others, but one culprit of video grabbing without permission is WatchFirstNow. You can see the conversation heat up halfway down the first page when team 1676 realizes all their match videos were ripped from their youtube and re-uploaded to WFN's private vimeo account: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=127932

I understand what WFN is trying to do by archiving the videos outside personal youtube accounts and in some cases they are given permission to grab videos. I just hope they find a way to achieve this without stepping on people's toes.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Wrong or not, you need to distinguish between stealing (which implies that the original is now unavailable to its owner, and which is a criminal act) and infringement (which does not deprive the owner of the content, merely the opportunity to use it exclusively, and which is not necessarily criminal).

How are you certain it's not fair use/fair dealing? Legally speaking, in the United States, the only way to be sure that something is fair use is to litigate. Precedents can be a good guide to the way courts are likely to rule, however U.S. and Canadian law is relatively undeveloped with regard to the fine details. From the other thread, which appears to be relevant, here's what I posted:
The approach to I referred could be the basis of a claim of transformativeness, which is a strong argument in favour of fair use (though not sufficient alone).

If the other site (or WatchFIRSTNow, if that's indeed the site to which you refer) were to make an explicit assertion of fair use, and specify the grounds, I think we'd be more able to assess their intentions. (Note that the lack of such a declaration could be read as ignorance, malice or a desire to keep their arguments in reserve in case of legal proceedings.)


For completeness, I should also point out that it could be fair use/fair dealing, and still be wrong, because of other moral considerations. If those are at issue, let's lay them out and discuss them.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Classic Canada: first they steal our American pharmaceuticals, now they take our videos! Life will never be the same!

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'm pretty sure that the aforementioned usage of FIRST recordings falls under the category of fair use (on watchfirstnow.com)- it might fall in the category of education, since it is educating the public on what FIRST does. While the original recorder technically has the exclusive rights to public distribution, the fairness doctrine overrides this right when it applies.

There's 4 items considered when determining if a scenario classifies as fair use, but these two items (from 17 U.S.C. § 107, fair use doctrine) are, in my opinion, most salient to this case:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

It can be reasonably argued that this work is for educational purposes (as it educates the public) and the website, seeing that it is devoid of advertisements, seems to be of a non-profit nature.

(I will admit the WHOIS obfuscation is annoying... Grr... those people...)

It can also be argued that these videos have minimal market value that's being lost in this case (I mean, no one's getting paid from YouTube yet, right?) and based on the number of views these videos get, I'm not even sure losses in ad revenue can even be remedied in court (is it even worth the filing fee, anyways?)

Personally, annoying as it may be, I think that this website has a strong case for fair use. Without any monetary market for these videos, legal arguments against this site may not only fail, but be detrimental to FIRST's goals of expanding the program.

(TLDR) People will share things on the internet no matter what you do; just let them be.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Can' tell if ignorant or joking.

Re: Video Stealing
 

OK I am going to go post every episode of pawn stars and myth busters on YouTube. I won't ask for ads and just tell the discovery channel and history channel its educational so I won't get in trouble.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Not that it makes things right or anything, but an offended party that has had its video ripped and uploaded to a different video sharing site can always file a DMCA takedown with said video sharing site. As long as you're the copyright holder of the material, you can do that and it's likely to get the video taken down or at least get the offender put on notice if enough complaints are made.

Mind you, you need to be that actual copyright holder for the material. If all you did was record the FIRST provided video stream, then it's probably FIRST that's the copyright holder, since they did all the production, etc. I think unedited, uncommented video from your own camera of an FRC event is probably shaky on whether you're the copyright holder. And something like RoboShow is very clearly original material that the RoboShow guys hold the copyright to.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Let's run with that example. Here's what could happen in a best-case scenario for the copyright holder:

1. Since you told the channels that you've uploaded the material. They're probably going to file a DMCA takedown.
2. The material will get temporarily taken down by YouTube.
3. Since you are asserting it's educational, you'll contest the takedown using the DMCA process.
4. YouTube will acknowledge that and put the material back.
5. The channels won't believe your claim, and will threaten a lawsuit.
6. You're behind 7 proxies, so you don't believe that they can find you.
7. The channels file suit against a John Doe defendant.
8. The channels persuade the court to subpoena your registration and IP information from YouTube, and then subpoena that IP's subscriber name and address from your ISP.
9. They serve you with the suit.
10. You defend the suit, and argue fair use owing to non-commercial educational use. They'll counter with loss of commercial opportunities.
11. You might lose. Or can't afford to defend the suit and settle. Either way, you get to argue that your use isn't costing them any money, and so the penalty you should pay is minimal.
12. You probably end up paying more than you wanted to.

But there are complications. Will the channels risk a judgment against them on such a petty infringement? (If your arguments are accepted by the court, because of the precedential value, that will threaten their business more than letting you get away with infringement.) Will they even be able to get your real identity to sue you? (If there is uncertainty regarding the identity of the uploader, it may be difficult to convince the court to issue the subpoena.)

And look at how differently that would play out if the aggrieved party were a FIRST participant. Would the DMCA process happen? Would the lawsuit happen?

It's not unreasonable to think that you won't actually get in trouble. Look at the variety of copyrighted content on video hosting sites—probably including those series—as an illustration of that fact. Whether or not it's right, the uploader does indeed stand a reasonable chance of getting away with it.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I agree 100%

Re: Video Stealing
 

It's actually more complex (and potentially annoying) than that.

Though FIRST is the video provider (e.g. through the AV hookups at the venue), their agreement with the film crew may not necessarily specify a transfer of copyright. In the U.S., absent a work for hire agreement, the person operating the camera is the copyright holder of the video.¹ (The lack of such an agreement would be unlikely, but to the extent that FIRST believed the webcast was a one-time event rather than a body of content that could be preserved and used forever, it's not inconceivable that the contract could omit this.) For the same reason, the person operating their own camera at a FIRST event owns the copyright to that video.

If there was editing and production work that was creative in nature, then there would be a copyright embodied in those elements, and separate from the camera work. Again, this could be assigned to FIRST by contract, and probably is.

The main complications arise as a result of the content of the video. FIRST has music playing in the background (which is presumably under licence); they don't own that copyright, and therefore can't transfer it.² To the extent that creative performances take place (perhaps in the form of a speech or the rendition of a national anthem, but almost certainly not gameplay), those are copyrighted by their performers, and FIRST can't transfer that copyright either. If you re-use that content, you have to be ready to assert that your use of the portions for which you have not secured copyright approval are fair use or de minimis infringement (too small to cause any meaningful harm). Or you have to hope they don't find out and start checking items off the list I provided above.

Another complication arises because the video host can terminate its agreement with the uploader, likely for little or no cause. Even if you legitimately own the copyright, the video host can (legally, but perhaps unethically) kick you off and take the video down. Users who are frequently the target of DMCA takedowns may find themselves in that situation.


By the way, don't file a DMCA takedown request if you're not the copyright holder. Misrepresentation will open you to liability for damages.

¹ In Canada, the law is a little more complicated, but ought to work out the same way in the case of a work for hire.
² In theory, they actually could write such a copyright transfer into the contract, but I doubt it's there. I bet the agreement only covers FIRST, not downstream re-users.

Re: Video Stealing
 

And later on, when FiM realized they're doing the same thing

If it was devoid of advertisements, this might be true. But it's not. They're running advertisements for a Canadian hosting company at the bottom of every archive page. The other issue people have is that there is absolutely no attribution to the original source, and no one was contacted to see if it was okay to rip their videos and re-upload them privately to another video hosting website.

Or we can avoid a third party and settle the issue like adults. The administrator of the site has been contacted by several people about this issue, and this issue has been brought up publicly several times now.


This issue is pretty black and white. There should be no need for discussion about fair use or whether the videos are for "educational use". WFN is ripping other people's videos from websites, re-uploading them, displaying them as their own content, and serving ads on them. It's pretty safe to say no one is okay with this.

As Chris said (and as I pointed out in a private message to Adam - which like Hallry's email never got a response), the logic that there's "no source of income from the ad" doesn't mean they're not ads. Likewise, the logic behind planning to attribute people, but in the meantime not removing the videos or contacting the original owners and making sure it's alright if they re-upload the videos is flawed.

A quick solution for this would be for WFN to do the right thing, and just link to the YouTube videos on their website, like The Blue Alliance does. To Adam: If you need a programmer to replace the ripped videos with the proper embedded YouTube links, I'm sure we can work out a deal

Re: Video Stealing
 

I knew FIRST was all about giving students "real life" engineering situations. It's now evolved to giving students "real life" legal situations ;)

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'm not qualified for the legal discussion but I like the benefits of a stable video archive. Teams don't always last and don't always manage the transition of accounts. (There's an old 610 channel with a video of someone tripping that we can't remove for example)

The only reason we have the 1996 championship is because someone recorded it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8N6lnle1fc Is this ok?

Re: Video Stealing
 

Everyone,

I don't have time right now to write an at length response to this entire thread. But I would like to make sure you all know that I am aware of the thread. I'm going to do my best with the time I have right now to respond to some comments, I will get to the rest later tonight or tomorrow.

If you read through my responses to the last thread I stated that

I understand that crediting the source of the videos is an important bit that I have forgotten when originally developing the site.

I have responded to 2 emails from him. I have asked for proof of ownership of the YouTube account. I have not heard back yet. I will send him a PM tonight.


From what I can read, there are 2 main problems at hand. One is the fact that we don't credit the source, which I will fix. Second is the people who would rather fight to call something theirs (which I'm not trying to take away from them) instead of help the cause and help spread the word of FIRST.

Requesting video take downs is of benefit to no one.

If people have specific issues. Lets come up with ideas to solve them instead of just complaining.

- Bochek

Re: Video Stealing
 

What email account did you use to reply back with? I have not recieved a reply on either of the 2 email accounts that I emailed the administrator account with.

EDIT: I've check through all of the emails on both accounts...Can't find anything from WFN.

Re: Video Stealing
 

This is fairly straightforward. You're breaking the youtube terms of service.

https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms
(section 4)

You're also connecting that breach with the FIRST name.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Just like Tristan said, you probably won't get sued because they don't care enough; but in this case, you're definitely affecting the potential market. Shows on the Discovery channel are of a commercial nature, and it would be financially viable for them to sue you if you're causing them to lose enough ad revenue from their TV showings.

Kinda. The Youtube Partner Program is a service people sign up for to get paid for videos. It's a reason why artists actually post music videos on YouTube and let you listen to them for free.

Ah, didn't see that- thanks for pointing it out. That does make it less okay, but who knows if they profit from it?
Also, attribution isn't connected legally to fair use, but it certainly is the morally correct thing to do.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Well, those videos are theirs, they filmed, edited, and published them in a medium of their choice (youtube). Sounds like you're the one fighting to call something yours, when it's clearly not.

If we're giving out gold stars for "spreading the word of FIRST" - who would you give more credit to...

A) The teams filming, editing, and uploading events - who work with the admins of TBA to link match results to match video.

or

B) Someone using a bot to download videos from youtube, upload them to a Vimeo account, and serving them on a superfluous website laden with ads.

If your view is that re-uploading videos to a separate account is beneficial - knock yourself out. But to do so without the permission of the creator (in this case the explicit disapproval of the creator), isn't the proper way to go about it. I know that team 25 has purposely not published their match video from Hatboro since they don't want you to rip and re-upload it. That's not a net gain for the FIRST community.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'd say, who cares? The easiest behavior to change is your own.

Instead of trying to shut them down, why not just roll with it? If you want to take credit for this worthy activity, why not just talk about how many of your videos are featured on the distribution site? Uploading credit is certainly something to ask for, but in the case of an uncooperative host, a small watermark in the corner will certainly do the trick.

Just talk about how you're working with other teams/people to expand FIRST beyond your own personal capabilities.

Re: Video Stealing
 

The people who spent the time collecting and editing the videos???

It is not the responsibility of the people "providing" (its not really providing at the moment because they were never asked) the content to talk about this on their own. This is the responsibility of whomever is running the website. How about I grab pictures of you off of Facebook (or other media site) and use them on a website for promotional work. I'm not going to ask you can just tell everyone that its you. This is not how the real world works.

What they are doing is great in that they are providing a database of videos for matches. While redundant since we have TBA they each have their own way of doing things, every good thing will have competition. With that being said, more people would be open to the idea of linking their match videos to these websites if they are 1. ASKED and 2. credit is given either by a disclaimer or a link to the original work.

To whomever is running this: please stop taking videos for the time being and resume once you come up with a process for asking for permission and giving credit where it is due. You are only hurting yourself more by creating a bad reputation of your website. I believe your intentions are good to create a better video database considering when you started your efforts TBA wasn't getting much new content.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Legally, this is the way the world works in the case of fair use, which is why determining if it falls under that category is so pivotal in this discussion. I can take a photo off the internet and show it to a classroom for educational purposes- a case that definitely falls within the area of fair use.

Yes, credit should be given where credit is due, as I mention in my above post, but modifying their behavior is not something entirely within your control, while adapting to it certainly is.

(You also won't find me on Facebook- I have a thing against them ;) )

Re: Video Stealing
 

This. Oh how I wish WatchFIRSTNow existed 15 years ago & would have copied everything from the Soap108 database. I feel like we lost some great old footage because that original source went away. I know some of it is still floating around (http://firstvideoarchive.com/) but I also know this wasn't everything we had back then either.

It's an interesting time now. Back then I think the WatchFIRSTNow effort would be praised but with the advance of content copyright and online streaming, things have changed quite a bit.

Speaking of FIRST Video Archive, are there ways of linking those old videos to TBA? Or do they need to be uploaded to YouTube for that to occur? Would uploading them to a YouTube account spark the same kind of discussion we're having here?

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'm sorry, but you don't get to claim the moral high ground here or try to shame people who are objecting to your appropriation of their hard work and effort to record matches. You don't get to decide for those people what the best use and display of their work is, because you didn't do it. Allow me to demonstrate:

I think because of the controversy over your site, your brand is compromised and could benefit from relaunching under a different name with different management to provide a clean break from said controversies. I demand you provide me all the supporting source of your site so I can make the necessary changes and relaunch it under my management as "ThisIsFIRST". Under my new management it will be much more successful at helping the cause and spreading the word of FIRST. So you should totally hand over all that source to paid to develop. I'll (obviously) just rip the content from your video sharing accounts myself.

Re: Video Stealing
 

What is YouTube or Vimeo's policy on accounts that get deleted/banned? As in, if an account was deleted or banned, is there a way for the account holder to access (ie 'take back') the videos they uploaded on to the account?

Preface: This is not an opinion on WFN or their execution/implementation. I've only skimmed over the details of that case, so I'm not willing to provide an opinion on it.

In general, I agree that having one, centralized community-driven storage of videos would be useful. So that videos won't get lost, and are easier to access for people who want to design portals that showcase those videos (similar to TBA). For example, a rather simple implementation would be to have one YouTube channel called 'FIRST videos' that anyone can upload to.

Is there a particular reason why people who filmed/edited videos want to upload them? Do they get money from them? (I'm just trying to see what potential issues might arise from such a centralized solution, not attack anyone).

Re: Video Stealing
 

Are you serious? Your site is being counteractive to the "message and unity" you seem to be promoting. Wouldn't FIRST benefit more from having everything aggregated in one place with everythinf(match scores, awards, videos, basically TBA)?

I know 1676 pride themselves on the significant amount of match videos they post. Saying you "forgot to credit them" is just as bad as ignoring it completely. Its great that you webcast and archive all Canadian events, but is it necessary to host every other video?

Either way if you decide to start asking permission from other teams to host their videos, I can guarantee you're going to have a hard time getting approvals from some people...

Re: Video Stealing
 

I for one love 1676s MARchives(can we please start calling them that?), as they're an angle and quality better than most webcasts in MAR, and easy to watch since I barely have time to watch a full MAR webcast/follow the MAR teams I wanna follow.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Maybe I should have rephrased my question. I meant more:

In exchange for accreditation (or similar), would everyone be willing to upload it to a centralized location, instead of (only) their personal YouTube/Vimeo account? Or are there other factors involved?

Re: Video Stealing
 

after reading through this forum and discussing it with my English teacher he told me that what WATCHFIRSTNOW is doing is not wrong. YouTube is a public domain full of public files, the team does not have to post there videos to you-tube. therefore Watchfirstnow has every right to take videos of of you-tube for personal use as long as its for non-private. as long as the video is not copyright, they have all the right to take it and use it.

Re: Video Stealing
 

That is wrong, for one, the video is copyrighted and is not public domain

Re: Video Stealing
 

I'm not making commentary on WFN, but so this ^^ Just because something is public doesn't make it public domain. The first is a measure of availability, the second is a measure of copyright.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Then I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your english teacher is wrong.

Compare what WFN is doing to something he MIGHT understand: I've got a lot of posts on here, some of which almost provide some educational value. Now, copy the text of that and put it verbatim into a book. Is it bad to do this without citing me? You bet it is. You're taking my work as your own. Now, yes, that work is a derivative of other's work. But the fact is that I am the one who wrote it originally.

Now, if I record an event happening is it really any different? Nope. I hit the record button, I set the angles for the shot, I did any required editing. Now, if someone takes it and uses it for their own gain (which this is undeniably doing) it is infringement. This is a really simple case.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Perhaps you should review the Youtube Terms of Service, specifically Section 5, part B.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Can we assume this is true? I'm not sure. Rogers v. Koons showed that selling a sculpture based on a picture is infringement, but in this case, WFN is not selling anything (except an ad, which might be a point of contention). It's always the same ad, too, which seems to suggest that the money from that ad is not for commercial reasons, but merely to pay for web hosting.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I've been keeping a close eye on this thread, but have been trying not to post too much on it.

One of the many reasons why TBA is amazing is the ability for uploaders to voluntarily submit their match videos for an event. They can do it both on the site and it's even easier to do so on this Google Doc, all they have to do is provide the link for the playlist and someone else will take care of sorting all of it. These videos are still hosted on the uploader's channel so if a user clicks on one of the embedded videos, it goes straight to the uploader's video page.

EDIT: Also found that there is a Facebook Group for coordinating TBA match footage as well.

One of the new awards last year was the FRC New Media Award, which "will recognize a team’s creative use of digital media and devices to create and distribute content that is used to promote the team’s profile, achievements, and outreach, along with the FIRST mission." 15% of the grading for this award is Engagement, with questions asked such as "How did you track the results?". If you look at the winning submission last year from Panteras, one of the main ways they did this was providing statistics of views on their YouTube Channel. However, if their footage is stolen from them and posted elsewhere, their recordable reach of their content will decrease. This could hurt a team that's in the running for this award.



And I also just want to put this out there: What if I go download all of WFN's footage and then post it on my own personal account somewhere, and start advertising it like crazy on Chief Delphi as "Robotics Videos Online". That would be perfectly fine under WFN's beliefs, correct? (assuming everything else is disregarded)

That's my $0.02 for now. I'll see if I can dig up any more change in my pockets later.

Re: Video Stealing
 

So, you're saying that if I take code from Microsoft and put it into an open source library that's ok because I'm not gaining anything and Microsoft won't come after me?

I worded that poorly, gain isn't important it just makes it more bothersome to me. Passing off someone else's content as your own is the core problem.



And on top of any legal issues... It's just a slimeball move. Adam, you're being a slimeball. Stop it.

Re: Video Stealing
 

You shouldn't need proof of ownership from anyone. Are they yours? Did someone else make them? Don't rip them and re-upload them.

I guarantee you if you had taken the proper channels in order to receive explicit permission from the owners of the videos that you could rip them from their original source (this is apparently against some terms of service? I'm no lawyer) and re-host them, things would've been okay. But this isn't what you're doing. You're stealing from people. I can't go on to YouTube and steal my favorite One Direction music video and re-upload it somewhere else so I can serve ads on it. I didn't make it, I wasn't given explicit permission to use it, and I'm clearly profiting off of it.

Also, we did suggest a solution. Several times, in fact. Need another solution? Feel free to email me, I know how to drag and drop a few videos to a trash can. Is it on a server? Perfect. Here's my ssh public keys. I'll login and remove them for you.

It doesn't take a programmer to make this right.

Ads for free web hosting is exchanging a service for ads, as opposed to directly getting money to pay for web hosting. It's still an ad, they're still profiting off of it.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Grah, this is exactly like the Mythbusters post nuggetsyl made on the first page! No, this would not be okay because Microsoft is a commercial entity and by releasing their code you are damaging the revenue they get from selling their products. FIRST videos are different because there is negligible amounts of monetary income involved.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Incorrect. If I take code from a non commercial product and put it in an open source project it's the same situation. I'm taking someone else's work and claiming it as my own.

Re: Video Stealing
 

I think the way TBA works is great. The only issue is that there is no assurance that those videos won't disappear if individual user accounts are deleted/banned for some reason (I think there are already a few dead links on TBA).

If the community could store/manage the content, it would help safeguard against that possibility.

Access to the analytics for page/load views per video is definitely possible. YouTube already does it (sometimes). Would teams be fine with those statistics, versus the 'channel views' that the Panteras used?

Re: Video Stealing
 

I completely agree. What if TBA starts a Dropbox/Box.com account where uploaders can voluntarily submit their match videos (similar to what FIRST did with the Dean's HW Submissions this year), in case they want their footage to be saved if for some reason their account is deleted in the future. If their account is deleted, then TBA would be able to upload the videos on their own (since they got the okay from the uploader) and thus they're saved. You can't force uploaders to preserve their footage if they don't want to, after all, it is their's. But if they want to, they'll have the option.

It is extremely simple for a team to access their YouTube Channel's analytics page and get all kinds of statistics. But let's say a team has 90 videos that have been taken and uploaded on WFN's account. How would that team access the view count/minute watched data for those videos, and/or include it in the graph such as Panteras has done? This will also take away greatly from the number of page visits their channel in general receives. Why should teams have to compromise for a service that they provide by recording and posting the footage?

Re: Video Stealing
 

True; I should have been more verbose in my previous statement. The other critical part to this issue is that it is arguably used for educational purposes while also being non-damaging to the original copyright holder.

Nonprofits have goals that can be hindered with the theft of intellectual property, but downloading non-commercial code to teach a class (assuming this teaching does not damage the copyright holder) is fair game under fair use.

Re: Video Stealing
 

It is damaging the copyright holder though, the copyright holder can no longer create statistics on the use of the videos and the videos are being shown without credit to the copyright holder.

Re: Video Stealing
 

And so the copyright holders would be able to stand to sue. However, the case that they can no longer create statistics on the usage of videos seems to be weaker than the case that these videos are a valuable educational resource (as I have gathered from the other posts in this thread; attribution also has no place in Fair Use law).

Re: Video Stealing
 

It seems like this would be the easiest, most workable solution.

Unless someone wants to go the extra mile and provide a means of letting teams easily gain access to all the analytics that they want, embedding and a backup database (firstvideoarchive?) for archiving purposes seems the way to go.

Now that I understand the situation a little more, I do agree that regardless of legality, there should be an etiquette established where if you want to use someone else's match footage:

- ask and comply with their requirements for using it

or

- embed

And hopefully we can put together a comprehensive archive that everyone is willing to put their content in it (for the sake of the community).

Re: Video Stealing
 

As they are already publicly available your case of "educational resource" is shaky at best. Allow me to simplify this issue, you're grasping at straws.

Re: Video Stealing
 

People, calm down. I am giving everyone 24 hours to think. I will reopen thread tomorrow.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Good morning and welcome to another day of FIRST. I have opened this thread hoping that civilized conversation can take place. WE ARE FIRST! What is said here reflects who we are and what we represent please take that into account while posting. I hope that I can check this thread during the day and see positive, respectful posts. We will not all agree on everything but we can still be respectful of each other.

Thanks :)

Re: Video Stealing
 

FYI, to those unaware, from the 'Help Build the Archive!' thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=35

WatchFIRSTNow has been gracious enough to remove the footage that I wanted to be taken down, and I'm sure if FiM or anyone else wants their videos deleted from WFN's account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.

That said, I would recommend the permanent closure of this thread. These posts are full of harsh insults and personal attacks, and I doubt anything positive will come of it in the future other than pointless arguments over 'facts' the people can't agree on.

However, if anyone has constructive suggestions for how to improve WFN or archiving in general, I'm sure it would be gladly appreciated, but perhaps just PM those in charge or start a new separate thread for it instead of continuing this black hole.

Thank you to everyone who provided their opinion in the prior posts.

Re: Video Stealing
 

OK folks, nothing to see here, just move along now.

I just love happy endings :)

Re: Video Stealing
 

I think one incident in a larger situation was addressed and corrected, but there's still several more to go

Re: Video Stealing
 

As someone who wandered in to this discussion without much prior knowledge, what is the current overall picture, and what are all the other issues?

Re: Video Stealing
 

OK... I tried to avoid commenting on this whole thing, I really did. At this point I need to say something. Many of you go through engineering school, and would be devastated if somebody took everything you worked hard to create and put it under their name. Well, I went to film school, and I can tell you that what is happening when you steal someone's video (youtube or not, educational or not) you are doing the same thing as someone who would steal an item or idea an engineer created.

As said by Nirvash this is a HUGE issue. I generate viewer statistics on everything I create, then use these when applying for jobs. Users generally poke around a bit on my page if they like something on it, which generates more user interaction with my videos and in turn gets me more exposure.

While I applaud people for donating their footage, and WatchFIRSTNow for removing the footage they basically stole, some people make a living on film and it shouldn't be assumed that everyone wants their footage included.

The next time you steal a video take a minute to realize that you stole from a human being, you took their work, put your name on it, and went on with your day while they are stuck wondering why they are losing viewership.

-Kelli

Re: Video Stealing
 

So have we forgotten about this issue yet? There's still tons of un-original content, without citation or a link back, still with ads.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Thread is being closed as per requests.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Sorry to revive this thread however Team 1678 has just realized that our webcast archives were added to WatchFirstNow. The match videos we posted to our YouTube channel from Inland Empire and Sacramento Regionals were reuploaded on the WFN site.

Our students put in significant effort to effort to develop our live streaming system, uploading match videos to YouTube, and adding them to The Blue Alliance. Seeing them added to the WatchFirstNow website without our permission and without attribution is very troubling.

We are concerned with the loss of views and lack of recognition for the content that we put significant effort into creating and sharing with the FIRST community. We would like to our footage removed from the site. Who can we contact to request this?

Re: Video Stealing
 

I found that little paragraph particularly disturbing. You need proof that you don't own something?

Its really quite simple, you ask before you take. You're doing more damage to the community then you are doing good.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Our team has the same problem with maintaining our old accounts. Its was a nightmare for me to find the login for our FTP account to our website, let alone our other accounts.

Re: Video Stealing
 

As an author, I see my work pirated online all the time. Even items I have on Amazon for free, even my editing blog (which of course anyone can read)--used without my permission elsewhere.

Even with attribution, taking this work (which is copyrighted by virtue of the fact that I created it under US law) and putting it elsewhere throws off all kinds of metrics from Amazon rankings to blog page views--which hurts my publicity and place in search engine algorithms.

The same is true of a YouTube video; and it doesn't really matter whether or not any harm was intended, or whether or not you believe it's significant, or what-have-you.

A general rule of life is to not use other peoples' work without their permission.

Re: Video Stealing
 

Reese, it's ironic how close our team numbers are. I sent you a PM detailing my process of contacting WatchFIRSTNow.

I would suggest creating an online Google Doc with the usernames and passwords for your team's social networking accounts, with viewing/editing access given to trustworthy people. That is how 1676 keeps track of our log-in information for our Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and and Skype accounts. For example, share the document with both mentors and students that are in leadership, and then when the students graduate, they or the mentors can pass on the document to the next batch of student leaders.

Re: Video Stealing
 

But it's for educational purposes!!!!!!!1

(cue the heavy dripping sarcasm)

Re: Video Stealing
 

Fun part: My blog is entirely education in nature. :/