Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Hi All,
As a Rookie team coach I trying to employ the spirit with my team of continuous improvement and focus our energy on what is in our control. Our team's first competition found us in Livonia MI where we are very proud of our following "on field" achievements.
* End the qualification rounds ranked 12th
* We handed a powerhouse one of their 2 losses.:D
* Won 2 events we were predicted to lose by a landslide (one was with a dead alliance partner 30 seconds into the game)
* NEVER caused a foul
* Developed a scouting system that provided us assessments before every match
* Driver/operator confidence and ability impressed some veteran teams.

Our strengths are :
*A very solid catching robot. The human player could throw an inaccurate and/or violate pass to us and we caught it reliably. We never lost a ball when being hit by others.
* We could easily pass to another robot on the ground in a controlled manner.
* We can score the low goal with ease. (We didn't do it very often due to our role as of an inbonder)
* Defensive ability of our drivers were some of the reasons why we gave some powerhouses a loss.
* NEVER caused a foul point in any of our rounds (w/ eltorros on front)
* 100% Uptime. This was not always the case for our alliance partners
* We had a goalie blocker, but never used it. Reason: Our drivers were extremely efficient at inbouding/passing and very effective at "getting in the face" of other robots to limit shooting opportunities from the field
Possible Strength: The team is fairly confident they can catch a truss ball, but can't find the opportunity to prove it on the field.
* There is room for more aggressive driving from us from a defensive perspective.

Our weaknesses are:

* We can't throw. (over truss or at high goal).
* Auton CURRENTLY only achieves 5 pts. Auton "ability" at next event will be 11 pts instead of 5.
* We had some slop in our eltorros (will be fixed before the next event)
* Our auton strategy was to only go for the 5 pts and NOT take a ball unless we had an alliance member that wanted to clear it during auton. Reasoning ...If we still had a ball after auton is over, we would spend precious time trying to getting 1 pt, where we could be using that time to go inbound a ball and start getting 10 assist points. We list this as a weakness because we found some teams didn't understand those balls on the field from auton limit our alliances ability to START getting assist points. This could be viewed by some scouts as a "weak" strategy. In our opinion...1 pt was not worth the time it took to get it after auton, but it also hurt our low goal statistics.

This strategy actually worked very well for us and helped our team be a very solid contributor to help win games that were very close. We estimated we were the difference in atleast 3 games.
We ended the elim rounds ranked 12 (and was in the top 10 for most of the day). Our team was relatively surprised that we were not picked. In the spirit of continuous improvement we are asking our-self "What could we have done better to rank higher on scouting sheets". (given our current capabilities of not being a "thrower")

Here is what we concluded :
1.) Most of the scouting approaches used by teams are very heavily weighted for scoring goals, and light on assisting as well as an efficient catcher/inbounder.
2.) A strong defensive robot that can also pass and catch is not necessarily something teams look for in their scouting reports. ** This is a key point that I need some feedback around.
3.) Being a solid and cooperative team member is not something that is scouted for...but being an uncooperative alliance member will surely get your scratched from somebody list. (We did that with our team, and I am sure this is common practice).
4.) Eliminating the "slop" in our el-torros MUST be fixed before next event.

Our thoughts on how we can improve for the next competition:
1a.) In auton always take a ball and put it in the low goal.
1b) Another auton strategy would be around when we compete against a powerhouse that plans on shooting multiple high goals: Place our robot in the goalie zone directly infront of them. Put the goalie post up and stop them from scoring the straight shot. (A very different approach...but would work to our strength and stop the other team from scoring 20-40 pts in auton). Our fear is ...This would not show up on scouting reports as a strength as we didn't score any auton point.
2.) Always score atleast 1 low goal per game. (even if we fill the role as an inbounder). Clean up auton balls would be another easy way to do this.
3.) Consider visiting the top 8 seeded teams and promoting our robot's ability and why we may be a good partner for them.
4.) Take some videos of us catching the ball thrown over the truss on the practice field. (Use this to prove we can do it)
5.) The last one is ...get to the top 8 and pick 2 decent high shooters. Something our team now has confidence in achieving.

Please comment on our conclusions and if we are missing something.

P.S. I am not looking to start a thread on the trials and tribulations of scouting and being scouted. I am really just looking for some guidance around the conclusions for a rookie team's perspective. Help me understand the gap in our conclusion.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Without having seen your matches I can only go off of what's in the post, but here are some things I would say:

An inbounder is a fairly valuable robot that surprisingly few teams could play well. Specializing in that role is probably a good idea for your team. Not being able to throw at all is honestly not a big downside if you can effectively pick up off the ground and spit it out. Only two robots need any ability to throw on an alliance.

Your goalie mechanism has a potentially very important use case that could make it stand out - the autonomous mode. You are at best going to put up 11 points in auton, which is less than the 15+ points a blocker can take out of the equation. The positioning rules for goalies are not in your favor but that doesn't mean it's impossible to have your robot move into an ideal position once autonomous begins. Doing this and being a quality inbounder will make your robot a great second pick at nearly any event this year.

I would not focus too much energy on catching over the truss. It is a fairly high risk, fairly low reward strategy that is easily defended. Use your catching strengths to pick up from a human player and spit into another robot.

I would not definitely say that scouts were not looking for inbounders this year. That is possible and maybe even likely, but a team would have to be foolish to assemble an alliance of three goal scorers without regard for the dynamics of the game. I can absolutely assure you that top teams are looking for robots that can play defense, human load, and spit out for a second round pick.

I will say that if you played the way you described and your intake reliably got the ball off the ground that you would have been a strong contender for a second pick at the regional my team competed at recently.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

I'm not sure what the other teams missed. I haven't looked at your robot, but look at 766 on our Sacramento alliance in the finals match and compare your robot to how they operated. We were thrilled that 766 was still available--but note that they were the 24th pick and 7 other alliances had passed them over. That 4161 was still available for us at Inland Empire also surprised us. (And we thought more highly of our next available pick than most of the other 2nd picks and they didn't make it onto an alliance.) Sometimes its hard to figure out what alliance captains are thinking--and often they simply aren't prepared.

Good luck this time.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Your discussion kinda reminds me of our scouting session in Arkansas. Arkansas had about 39 teams, and about 16-17 of them were what we'd call "tier 1" or "tier 2" robots - robots that could do everything, or almost everything, at least in a vacuum. So then we looked for "tier 3" robots - robots that maybe couldn't do everything, but robots that could do ONE THING INCREDIBLY WELL. There were some bots who could "always" score in the lower goal, but often times they seemed to drive around in patterns that showed they had no real purpose in life. We take match footage of each competition round (at 10fps, and playback at 40fps so we get a fast-forward effect) so we can look after-the-fact for robots that really "stand out" on things we initially weren't looking for during competition. There was one robot that stood out - team 2999. They had some crazy wire mesh above their robot to possibly hold a ball for autonomous, but otherwise they were just a chassis-bot. But what they did with that chassis was spectacular. In every round they played, they played with defensive purpose - disrupting assists, being an effective blocker to always seem to be between an opposing robot and the ball they want to grab, and always being that "gnat" that you keep swatting but keeps coming back right into your face. If there are no Tier 1 and Tier 2 robots available, THAT is the kind of robot you can't afford to not pick. Unfortunately someone else picked them ahead of us, but THAT is what we really look for.

-Danny

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Catching is an attribute that most higher level strategies would only value in the hands of the finishing robot. If a robot can catch the ball and have the ability to either put it in the high goal or the low goal from multiple positions on the field, then it's valuable. Catching, then orchestrating a pass in a more open field area, closer to the opposing alliances requires 2 rather complicated coordination maneuvers on the alliance: the truss-catch, and the presumably defended mid-field pass.

Superior would be simplifying the first pass to an inbound corner pass, then doing a truss-catch, or simply trussing directly from the inbounding robot to a HP then pursuing a defended mid-field pass. It seems like your robot best fits into the former strategy as an inbounder.

Also keep in mind that for your goalie autonomous set up prior to the match, the other team doesn't finalize the placement of their robot until after yours. It may be necessary to have a goalie autonomous that moves in the goalie zone (but stays in the goalie zone!).

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

You are both forgetting that the low goal is also Hot half of the time.

5 + 5 + 1 + 2.5 = 13.5

Consider that you can get that every match (or 16 points per match with hot goal detection). Blocking a shot every match is unlikely, considering you will have to move to a new position to block. Blocking a multi-ball autonomous is a very good trade, though.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Most teams currently drive and/or shoot straight. Blocking a ball every match shouldn't be too hard.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Offensive robots place after defensive for autonomous. I suppose you could do some rangefinder thing to tell when you are in front of a robot, but even then there are ways to fool that.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

But your robot would need to move in autonomous so that they are directly in front of them still. If you plan on just setting your robot down right in front of another robot they will just move their bot since you need to set up first.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Easy methods to solve this problem exist.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Agreed. I was just pointing out that you still need to move to a fairly precise location in autonomous to be positioned correctly. I felt I needed to clarify that because the OP's 1b suggestion of "placing" the robot directly in front of them.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Table 3-2. Yes it is.

His initial math is off though, low goal is worth 6 or 11. Averaging to 8.5.

OH, he must mean mobility points too.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Yes it is. Read the chart at the end of the summary (part 1): http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/viewItem/3

Edit: Adam beat me to it

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

He was also accounting for the 5 mobility points.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

My apologies, thought I hit "preview" instead of Post when I went to check the rules.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

OH darn, got me before the edit. Thanks for pointing that out though.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Good teams will always scout for partners that fit their strategy and play smart. I.E. they see what needs to be done and do it if they can and adapt their play when the strategy is not working during a match.

Also you absolutly MUST promote your team and robot to likely top seed teams. Especially ones with whom your think you have a role with and compliment. A good inbounder is valuable especially if they also play good clean defense well. You should not have probelms getting picked from what you describe.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Looks like a good plan to me. Eliminating "slop" in the el toros sounds like it might be a limiting factor. You have an easy to load robot, but you must be able to quickly and reliably eject the ball to prevent time wasters.

Drive trains can also make teams hestitant to pick you. I'm not trying to start a drive train debate. However, it would be good to know what you have "under the hood."

Good luck!
David

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

I think that any team that isn't looking at these things is doing their scouting wrong. It's a one-ball game; not everyone can be scoring at the same time which makes it that much more important.

We picked a team that sounds fairly similar to yours at the Central Valley regional, and found great success in working with them. Experienced scouts do notice this kind of stuff; we later found out that 254 was originally considering picking 5136 with the 1st pick as an inbounder and defense bot. They ultimately chose to pick 973, but if 973 hadn't made their comeback (and what a comeback it was), we wouldn't have gotten a chance to work with 5136, who proved to be an incredibly effective inbounder with solid defense.

Adding the extra auto capabilities certainly can't hurt. As far as pitching to the top 8 teams, it can work, although their scouts should notice you guys. One of the issues with scouting is it is difficult to objectively scout defense, so make sure you point it out to teams' subjective scouts when they ask questions! Clean, effective defense will be noticed by good scouts.

Keep doing what you do best. It's way better to have a robot that can do one thing, and extremely well, than to have a robot that is mediocre at everything.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

In our experience at Regionals not all of the top 8 teams (or the 8 alliance captains which extends further down) have great qualitative scouting. (We were there a few years ago.) So making a pitch to the teams sitting in 4-10 could be fruitful.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

Thanks so much for the great responses.
Please understand we are not complaining about not being chosen. I personally have found that success can sometimes blurr the "critical eye" to still find our areas of improvement. This post is all about helping us regain focus on the critical eye and focus on the key areas for improvement. The responses posted here have done that for us and we are very grateful for that guidance.

Last night, I had my drivers read this thread and then we watched the replay of our games with a critical eye. We uncovered some good lessons for improvement (Robot and Driving). We also decided to review our match recordings every day at lunch & end of day. When time allows for it, we can also do this between matches.


Thanks again!!

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

This is surprising to me. From the description of your robot you sound like a great 2nd pick. I have this year seen a few examples of teams having poor scouting. For example, this year, my team was ranked 9th at the end of qualification matches. We are a solid shooter an pick up/defense robot. We were not picked at all until we moved into the 6th captain spot and the 5th captain asked us to join their alliance, our scouter quickly realized that another great shooter and pick up/defense robot was still not picked. So we rejected the 5th captain. They went on to pick a different team. We then proceeded to pick the team we wanted who had already been I believe a captain in a district event and won the district event. Some how the team did not get picked earlier despite having already won an even and having great stats. They were however not ranked very high in win-loss ranking. This just shows that top robots can get passed on if teams do not have very good scouting.

I would say that you guys could make sure to tell scouters in the pits your strengths. You could also makes sure to talk to other team's scouters. Also find ways to get your name out there to other teams.

Re: Thoughts on "being scouted" from a Rookie team (please comment)
 

You've got the right approach, but also have to remember that sometimes things happen that just don't make a lot of sense. Our team also finished 12 once and was not picked when we thought we had a lot to offer.

On the other hand, we were also picked once when we were ranked 62nd and thought we had little to offer.

We once beat the best team in the country when they had an inexplicable breakdown... we once got knocked out of first spot when we had an inexplicable breakdown.

Okay, we eventually found the loose wire that caused our breakdown, but for three matches it was inexplicable.

All I can suggest is that with a positive, focused approach like you're bringing that you're likely going to have more good luck than bad. It just takes a while for things to balance out.

Stick with it!

Jason