Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

So I ask the larger question: Why has FIRST relied on a what is clearly a faulty technology to light the pedestal (among other technology problems) when a simple button on the refs stand would do (if even that), but hasn't implemented a very simple spreadsheet system to track when playoff teams use their timeout instead of requiring them to carry around a small sheet of paper than can be easily lost and easily confused with the backup ticket? Clearly the priorities for game and system design are misplaced at the moment.

If someone is going to tell me this is the "real world" I've got news for them--they don't live in the real world. I have almost 30 years of experience working in the regulatory and policy world. I often see empathetic rulings to accommodate mistakes that can have much more serious consequences for all of the parties concerned. FIRST needs to change its policies to reflect the "real world."

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I don't know, but my guess would be there would be too much confusion over if someone "actually" called a "verbal" timeout or backup. When they have to turn something in, they are making a clear decision that is much easier to understand than if a student runs up in a moment of panic and asks for a timeout, someone grants it, then they change their mind, etc. Having something physical probably reduces those types of possible confusions. Additionally, those papers are given to the alliance captain. Which means, whoever used them, was "authorized" by the alliance captain (they had to get them from somewhere!). If any old person ran up and asked for a timeout or backup, who knows what alliance they are really on? (Shirts, etc, are not guarantees) This makes it very clear who they are and what they want, and they are committing to it.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Just to clarify - the timeout/backup cards were on one piece of paper and you ripped them apart, thinking they were both timeout cards?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Pretty much, we thought they were both timeouts. The kid didn't know any better.

We wanted to get the timeout ASAP. We've had it where the ref wouldn't grant us one unless it was done ASAP.

The kid on the field that was there during alliance selections was the same one fixing the encoder problem. So we had another kid take up the card. Honest mistake.

I don't feel the correct call was made, especially since the opposite alliance had no issue with it. No one is perfect and this game has been far from it...

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Mahalo to the Citrus Circuits 1678 for looking past our uninspiring 6-5-0 record at SVR and making us your first pick. Your leadership and tenacity made for great gameplay. With an excellent partner in 4171, we certainly had the potential to go all the way. Congratulations to 971, 254, and 1662 for taking gold. Your alliance was certainly a behemoth that we couldn't overcome. Congratulations also to all the award winners whose work was recognized by the judges.

It was great returning to SVR after a seven year hiatus. Mahalo to all of the people who stopped by our pit to come see the 368 Poor Man's Swerve. We've never had quite so many visitors to our pit before.

Looing forward to seeing some of you in St. Louis (including 4171 via wildcard - yay!).

Aloha!

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm so sorry to hear about the unfortunate time-out card mix up, and consequential decision.

Although our alliance was kicked out in the first Quarter Final, it's unfortunate to see other alliances go through this kind of thing.

I don't know anyone from 1323, but if anyone from 1323 is reading this, it's a major shame.

I wish you the best of luck for next year, (and possibly CalGames)

-icecube45 (Team 114 Driver)

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is utterly ridiculous. Worst case, the 1323 alliance should have been stripped of both their backup and timeout coupons.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I've said in other threads that FIRST isn't about winning. It isn't. This kind of call though, has nothing to do with winning. It has everything to do with a perception of fairness, and an honest mistake. Maybe honest mistakes were made on both sides of the call? I hope Frank will respond with a blog post. If everything we've heard in this thread is true and there is no additional information, this sounds like one of the crappiest ways to end a season. It isn't inspiring, it isn't fun. It goes beyond team 1323 not winning. It represents something that is unwelcome in FIRST, something from a cutthroat competition. It undermines the entire season for many teams. I don't like bashing on the referees or any one person at FIRST HQ, but I'd like to see the complaints from the community recognized, and hope see plans for them to be rectified for next year.

I hope we will hear from Frank that there was a misunderstanding there as well, and this was not an intentional call to force a team to sit out their last match due to an honest mistake.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yes

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I won't edit or delete this post, I said it and believe in dealing with what you have said.

I'll revise my statement though. Intelligent was an unfair comment, as someone intelligent can easily be unreasonable.

We also don't actually know who made the final call. It was unfair to state head ref right off the bat.

I do stand by the fact that whoever did make the final call here is unreasonable, and such a call is just ridiculous.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Thank you Adam for the edit, and for the integrity to not try to cover up you statement.

I really only have one disagreement with you last comment. Here is my thinking on this.

As I stated earlier in post #42, I believe the decision was made on a strict interpretation of the rules related to Timeouts and Substitutions. I have no facts to support this, it is just the only logical explanation I can come up with to explain the "why" behind the decision.

Again, this is my opinion only. I believe whoever made the decision understood the "slippery slope" you find yourself on VERY QUICKLY when you start interpreting rules based on "reasonableness". It leaves the door wide open to serious inconsistencies in making calls.

This situation SUCKS, there is no getting around that fact. But I would much rather have rules that are Black and White instead of being left open to various interpretations.

Although, there sure seemed to be A LOT of that going on this year, but that should be a different thread.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

First, almost every major sport calls and records timeouts in the manner that I've described. In football and basketball where the timeouts are limited, the burden of recording the number of timeouts is on the officials, and then the number available are displayed. I'm not aware of any sport that requires a team to carry around a chit. Also, I'm not aware of any sport where a team much turn in a chit to make a substitution.

The risk of losing the chit, or providing the wrong one is much higher than a student inadvertently going to an official and misusing a timeout. The team captain is clearly identified with an armband, and as in football, only the team captain or the coach would be allowed to call the timeout. All of these issues have already been thought through by other sports--let's invent the next game instead of the reinventing the wheel.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

When did FIRST abandon reason for madness? A little common sense would have resolved this situation and made it a non-issue. I don't care if FIRST HQ was telling me to throw a team out, I would have let them play even if it meant never being a head referee ever again. With the laundry list of tough calls the referees have to make this season, this one should have been an easy one.

My heart goes out to 1323. What an awful way to end a season. Let the kids play FIRST - or is this competition now about adults punishing students?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

There's a big difference between interpretation and having a human in the loop. There's a huge difference between judging intent/impact of an on field action that lasted 2 seconds and judging intent/impact of a discussion with a single student who happened to hand you the wrong piece of (often poorly) labelled paper. In the case of the latter you can say "Hey, did you mean to do this?" and there's zero consequences. Because of this, we should ALWAYS get this right.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Many rules this year have been left open to interpretation--there's no way to dispute that. It sounded like ALL of the involved parties had worked out an agreeable solution before it was overturned. Slippery slopes arise when there's no obvious stopping point. In this case, the situation is clear--1323 was not changing their minds, and all of the other teams knew that they were working on their robot. 1323 made a mistake--an easy one given FRC's paper system--and moved to reverse it as soon as they were aware of it. If someone interpreted this as a potential slippery slope, then we need to have a conversation about what occurred and what are the actual opportunities to exploit that type of situation. This wasn't one of them.

As I've said, the timeout system is easy to fix so this doesn't happen again.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

The head referee attempted to confirm that 1323 wanted to replace themselves, and whatever answer he received, he believed that they did. Obviously there was a miscommunication involved somewhere.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

While I feel there is no need to share my personal views on what happened at SVR (as I have kept mostly to myself throughout the season at other events), I want to remind everyone that discussion on Chief Delphi can only accomplish so much. I am thrilled, however, that members of 1323, 254 and other teams involved have commented on their experiences in an effort to enlighten the community. I, myself, am still very curious about what exactly has been going on this season.

More to my point, while it is clear that FIRST "listens" to Chief Delphi, there is only so much it can accomplish. If teams have any comments, questions or concerns (and a blind man could see that many people do), it seems most prudent to direct them right to FIRST.

At the very least, it seems many would like to know exactly what happened and what rationale was behind the decisions that were made.

Lastly, my condolences to the teams affected by the circumstances, not only at SVR, but at events all around the world. I hope most, if not all of you, find some sort of absolution and consolation before the season is out.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...og-My-Bad-Call

#goodguyfrank

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is a great explanation of the situation and reasons for the decision when it was made, and a great result for all involved.

Good Call on a remedy.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

And so very quickly with that I believe the venom and vitriol will be quelled.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Im happy for 1323 for being able to go to champs after this little debacle, but this kinda gives a bad taste as to what FIRST hasnt done for 233.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Frank's proposed solution of requiring the alliance requesting a backup robot to write the team number of the robot to be replaced then initialing the backup form should prevent such miscommunication from occurring in the future.

Offering 1323 a wildcard slot to Champs is appropriate.

I just hope MadTown can accept the offer and make it to St. Louis!

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'll give FIRST credit on this one. They owned up to their mistake, made it right for 1323 and made changes to make sure this never happens again.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Good. Madtown deserves a better end to their season. Good luck at CMP RC and 1323!

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm waiting for someone to scream bloody murder about the team that won't get to go to championships now because FIRST had to cover for their mistake.
There's always someone who will be unhappy about something no matter what the reasoning is.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Well Pink has a legitimate beef, maybe even more so than 1323, to claim they should have gotten the same treatment as 1323.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I think Ed is talking about the wildcard spot that is being reallocated to 1323 for FIRST goofing. Not sure how I feel about that...

While that was a bad call, not sure how it stacks up to this one...

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Because 254/971 brought 2 wildcard slots to the table in the SVR finals, and 1678 and 368 each already had a bid- one of those wildcard slots was 'blackholed'.

1323 is essentially sliding into that blackholed wildcard spot which should not hurt anyone else qualifying for CMP.

-Brando

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Only after public apologies are offered to Mark, the Head Referee.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

They don't seem to be in the apologizing mood.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Truth.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Sigh. I look like an idiot.

Decision was made by a very reasonable person, with incorrect information and/or incorrect understanding of the information.

Frank is awesome for taking the blame for all of this, and making it right how he sees fit.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

So we're still waiting on those apologies.. right?

Because the Head Ref was just blasted in this thread.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

No, not at all. Just like Frank was able to admit that he made a bad call, you've publicly admitted that you made a rush to judgement. What you've both shown here is gracious and professional.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Literally the post directly above yours is doing just that.

I would like to observe that 1323 handled this situation extremely graciously and did not "blast the head ref" in their posts. If your implication is that 1323 needs to apologize, I just don't see it. Both members simply reported the facts, didn't name names, and even apologized for spreading a rumor.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Props to Frank for making it right and acknowledging that a mistake was made. I wish he'd done the same for 233, but take what you can get, I guess.

It seems like there should be a better way for Frank to interact with the interested parties at an event when an issue comes up like this, instead of just talking to a volunteer or two and only hearing one side of the story.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

In no way whatsoever was my implication that 1323 needs to apologize. When they've responded well and reacted professionally, what would they need to apologize for?

I know they did not blast the head ref, I read this thread.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I respect this a lot, as well as Frank's blog post.

+1 for both being good examples.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm just glad it was a miscommunication, instead of a deliberate move.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I jumped into the lynching early Sat evening with a post which included uncomplimentary remarks toward the head ref.

A post made shortly after mine indicated FIRST HQ was involved in the decision.

I immediately deleted my post, with apologies, because it was based on partial, third-party information. I learned a lesson: don't flame on CD, especially if you do not have first-hand knowledge of the issue.

Kudos to MadTown for not flaming on CD, even though they suffered through the experience.

Maybe we all can tone it down when reacting to judgment calls??

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Didn't want to wade into the controversy before, but now that it's resolved, hooray for 1323! We'll be happy to see your awesome bot in St. Louis.

We're slowly going to be uploading the full field videos we have of the regional if anyone is interested. Over the next few days, they'll be up at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...kDeX99SJ-r-8Zo.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Now that the dark cloud has given way to sunshine, I wanted to give a shout out to a bunch of amazing teams at SVR.

368: Your robot is easily one of my favorites this year. It is the best-driven swerve drive that I have ever seen, and every aspect of your machine is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.

1678: You are an assist machine. 254 prides ourselves in helping our partners maximize their contributions to each match, but you beat us at our own game. I wish F2 would have gone down differently, but I'm glad you'll be at St. Louis and you'll be a powerhouse no matter who else is on the field with you.

846, 2135, 670: You guys played really well as a team, especially in SF1-2. It is hard to adapt to a last second substitution, and I was thoroughly impressed by how close you kept it. 2135, it has been a pleasure to watch your team improve from the quals at CVR through the playoffs, and then through SVR.

971: Needs moar control loops. Glad we got the hot goal detector working :)

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

All I want to say is this.

In any sports event or any competition at all, there are bad calls made. Many times whoever makes the call tries to ignore it or cover it up. Very few however are willing to stand up and admit to their own mistakes and make things right. Frank did just that. I respect him and any others that were a part of that decision for giving 1323 a chance to continue on.

Much more respect gained for FIRST as a whole (on top of the already overflowing amounts).

P.S. Congrats to EVERYONE that competed at SVR I really enjoyed watching the live stream last weekend!

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm quite happy with the solution that FIRST came up with here. Hurrah to recognizing the need for fairness and providing a reasonable solution to prevent this from happening again. Thank you FIRST.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'll just chime in here with a big thanks to 1323 for handling this sad situation as well as they could and welcoming us into their alliance. From our point of view this whole affair was total chaos -- this was the first time we have been called up as a replacement robot, and it took us a while to get our drive team out of the stands and the robot onto the field. Information to us as to what was going on was surprisingly hard to come by.
I'm glad we were able to contribute the maximum possible autonomous points, which is the one thing our robot was pretty good at. After that -- well the first alliance was a tough one to beat, and the last minute substitution made it that much harder. It's good to see FIRST come clean that a mistake was made and that 1323 has earned a wildcard spot.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Full field videos up to 1080p are now uploaded. Sorry for those in Match 77.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Awesome! Thank you for posting these.