Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm so sorry to hear about the unfortunate time-out card mix up, and consequential decision.

Although our alliance was kicked out in the first Quarter Final, it's unfortunate to see other alliances go through this kind of thing.

I don't know anyone from 1323, but if anyone from 1323 is reading this, it's a major shame.

I wish you the best of luck for next year, (and possibly CalGames)

-icecube45 (Team 114 Driver)

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is utterly ridiculous. Worst case, the 1323 alliance should have been stripped of both their backup and timeout coupons.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I've said in other threads that FIRST isn't about winning. It isn't. This kind of call though, has nothing to do with winning. It has everything to do with a perception of fairness, and an honest mistake. Maybe honest mistakes were made on both sides of the call? I hope Frank will respond with a blog post. If everything we've heard in this thread is true and there is no additional information, this sounds like one of the crappiest ways to end a season. It isn't inspiring, it isn't fun. It goes beyond team 1323 not winning. It represents something that is unwelcome in FIRST, something from a cutthroat competition. It undermines the entire season for many teams. I don't like bashing on the referees or any one person at FIRST HQ, but I'd like to see the complaints from the community recognized, and hope see plans for them to be rectified for next year.

I hope we will hear from Frank that there was a misunderstanding there as well, and this was not an intentional call to force a team to sit out their last match due to an honest mistake.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yes

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I won't edit or delete this post, I said it and believe in dealing with what you have said.

I'll revise my statement though. Intelligent was an unfair comment, as someone intelligent can easily be unreasonable.

We also don't actually know who made the final call. It was unfair to state head ref right off the bat.

I do stand by the fact that whoever did make the final call here is unreasonable, and such a call is just ridiculous.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Thank you Adam for the edit, and for the integrity to not try to cover up you statement.

I really only have one disagreement with you last comment. Here is my thinking on this.

As I stated earlier in post #42, I believe the decision was made on a strict interpretation of the rules related to Timeouts and Substitutions. I have no facts to support this, it is just the only logical explanation I can come up with to explain the "why" behind the decision.

Again, this is my opinion only. I believe whoever made the decision understood the "slippery slope" you find yourself on VERY QUICKLY when you start interpreting rules based on "reasonableness". It leaves the door wide open to serious inconsistencies in making calls.

This situation SUCKS, there is no getting around that fact. But I would much rather have rules that are Black and White instead of being left open to various interpretations.

Although, there sure seemed to be A LOT of that going on this year, but that should be a different thread.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

First, almost every major sport calls and records timeouts in the manner that I've described. In football and basketball where the timeouts are limited, the burden of recording the number of timeouts is on the officials, and then the number available are displayed. I'm not aware of any sport that requires a team to carry around a chit. Also, I'm not aware of any sport where a team much turn in a chit to make a substitution.

The risk of losing the chit, or providing the wrong one is much higher than a student inadvertently going to an official and misusing a timeout. The team captain is clearly identified with an armband, and as in football, only the team captain or the coach would be allowed to call the timeout. All of these issues have already been thought through by other sports--let's invent the next game instead of the reinventing the wheel.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

When did FIRST abandon reason for madness? A little common sense would have resolved this situation and made it a non-issue. I don't care if FIRST HQ was telling me to throw a team out, I would have let them play even if it meant never being a head referee ever again. With the laundry list of tough calls the referees have to make this season, this one should have been an easy one.

My heart goes out to 1323. What an awful way to end a season. Let the kids play FIRST - or is this competition now about adults punishing students?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

There's a big difference between interpretation and having a human in the loop. There's a huge difference between judging intent/impact of an on field action that lasted 2 seconds and judging intent/impact of a discussion with a single student who happened to hand you the wrong piece of (often poorly) labelled paper. In the case of the latter you can say "Hey, did you mean to do this?" and there's zero consequences. Because of this, we should ALWAYS get this right.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Many rules this year have been left open to interpretation--there's no way to dispute that. It sounded like ALL of the involved parties had worked out an agreeable solution before it was overturned. Slippery slopes arise when there's no obvious stopping point. In this case, the situation is clear--1323 was not changing their minds, and all of the other teams knew that they were working on their robot. 1323 made a mistake--an easy one given FRC's paper system--and moved to reverse it as soon as they were aware of it. If someone interpreted this as a potential slippery slope, then we need to have a conversation about what occurred and what are the actual opportunities to exploit that type of situation. This wasn't one of them.

As I've said, the timeout system is easy to fix so this doesn't happen again.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

The head referee attempted to confirm that 1323 wanted to replace themselves, and whatever answer he received, he believed that they did. Obviously there was a miscommunication involved somewhere.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

While I feel there is no need to share my personal views on what happened at SVR (as I have kept mostly to myself throughout the season at other events), I want to remind everyone that discussion on Chief Delphi can only accomplish so much. I am thrilled, however, that members of 1323, 254 and other teams involved have commented on their experiences in an effort to enlighten the community. I, myself, am still very curious about what exactly has been going on this season.

More to my point, while it is clear that FIRST "listens" to Chief Delphi, there is only so much it can accomplish. If teams have any comments, questions or concerns (and a blind man could see that many people do), it seems most prudent to direct them right to FIRST.

At the very least, it seems many would like to know exactly what happened and what rationale was behind the decisions that were made.

Lastly, my condolences to the teams affected by the circumstances, not only at SVR, but at events all around the world. I hope most, if not all of you, find some sort of absolution and consolation before the season is out.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...og-My-Bad-Call

#goodguyfrank

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is a great explanation of the situation and reasons for the decision when it was made, and a great result for all involved.

Good Call on a remedy.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

And so very quickly with that I believe the venom and vitriol will be quelled.