Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I've been waiting for Andrew to make a thread but he's taking too long so here it is.

The teams in attendance are:
8
100
114
115
192
254*
256
295
368*
581
604
668
670
692
751
766*
840
841
846*
852
971*
1072
1280
1323
1351
1388
1662
1678*
1700
1868
1967
2035
2135*
2141
2144
2367
2473
2489
2813
2854
3045
3256*
3482
3669
4047
4171
4186
4255
4543
4765
4904
4990
5023
5026
5027
5194
5171
5210
5311

A * indicates that this team creates a wildcard.
Match schedule: http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Eve...eduleQual.html

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Is 1678 going to be running the webcast this weekend?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

No, we are taking a much needed break. I believe a different team is hosting the webcast. If I recall correctly it should be on the blue alliance already.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

604 maybe? They did it last year.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Quals match #47 is gonna be fun :)

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Definitely. Here's the full match schedule:

http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/Eve...eduleQual.html

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

No kidding. If any match is gonna kill 971's undefeated streak it would be that one.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm excited to see how 971 and 1323 work together, seeing as how they both have very similar robots. I wish there was a match with 971, 1323, and 100 on the same alliance.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

We do too.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yup, 604 & TBA will be doing the webcast. We plan to be uploading match videos instantaneously to YouTube, just like CVR.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

You guys awe awesome. Thanks! Best of luck today

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

What Youtube channel is it getting uploaded to?

It appears that the FMS is not posting to USFIRST properly, so twitter is the only source of match data...

EDIT: Nevermind, video links are posted on TBA...duh.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

How are folks getting standings for SVR? Can't seem to get them off of FIRST page or TBA.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

The screen in the pits keeping teams updated. I heard a rumor that SJSU's wifi is blocking something, but that's just a rumor as far as I know. Here are the rankings from after match 69 (which are already out of date):

http://i59.tinypic.com/2isxth3.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/90znmv.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/qytslz.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/r6wx7m.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2vx17jo.jpg

I'll upload updates pictures after the last match today.


Also, teams please take your drive team and/or team picture in front of the FIRST photo wall to be featured on cafirst.org! We'd like to get every single team's picture!

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

My understanding is that the SJSU Internet blocks the port used to connect to FIRST's FTP.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Is that new this year? Or did FIRST change something with the FTP protocol/port? I don't recall SVR having this problem before, but I've also seen more issues with the FTP this year than I can ever remember.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Rankings/Match results look to be live on the website now.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

The rankings and results are finally up! Tracker, Spyder and other related apps should work now.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

My guess is this is a manual upload at the end of the day and that people should not expect it to be refreshing tomorrow.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I think it might actually be working now. The update occurred before match 79, but match 79 data is visible.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I think they actually got it working - I scripted it to email me when the page went live, and I got that update at 5:42PM; I think match 75 or 76 was playing then? I checked after each of the last few matches and the rankings & scores seemed to be updating immediately, so I doubt someone was manually doing that after each of the last few matches.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yep word is it's been bypassed with a hot spot and will be live tomorrow.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Is 368 running a swerve drive? They certainly look to have some kind of fancy drivetrain going on.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yes. There's a thread about their robot with more details.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yes. 368 is running a swerve drive this year and their drivers were impeccable last week in Hawaii.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Head ref is not a reasonable or intelligent person.

1323 asked for timeout. Accidentally turned in backup card. Head said 1323 must sub out.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I was wondering why MadTown called for a backup. This is very surprising to me. Mark is one of the most reasonable and fair head refs there is.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

If that was true...
What a crappy way to go out.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Every single person on the red alliance asked for 1323 to stay in.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I agree with Adam. The Head Ref should have been reasonable. If everyone on the red alliance was okay with 1323 (madtown) I don't see a problem.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I dont even know what to think about the decision, its absurd... im curious to know if theres a precedent for a team messing up like this and getting penalized so severely...

Thank you for trying to keep them in the game. I respect all of the teams on red a lot, and really appreciate your attempts at trying to help give madtown a break.

Edit: this is apparently what they look like http://imgur.com/iHFx9gU so not the easiest thing to mess up, but im sure it is hard to keep track of them when robots are having problems and students are stressed.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I'm flabbergasted.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I've heard about a lot of controversial referee decisions, but this is the only one I can remember that I find completely unreasonable and unjustifiable.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

something is missing here. There has to be.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is really the worst way I've heard of to be eliminated. There is almost certainly more to the story, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Props to 254 for trying to bring Madtown's banner up with them to the awards line; that was a classy move.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This was a decision made (Or at least affirmed) by Frank at HQ.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I was on the field, and this is what I heard. After being given the backup robot coupon, Mark asked which team they wanted to replace, and he firmly believed that he was told that 1323 wanted to replace themselves. He immediately called for the backup team. When 1323 presented themselves and the misunderstanding (or whatever you want to call it) was discovered, he was originally going to allow them to compete, with the loss of their timeout, but after discussion with several people, it was decided that 1323 must be replaced by a backup robot.

As for the red alliance wanting 1323 to stay (which I also saw), I firmly believe that the other team, in any competition, should never be put in a position where they decide if a foul applies or not. Maybe you think it would have helped in this situation, but it only leads to bad thongs down the line. Anyway, this is only my opinion and I have no idea why they were not listened to.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

How do you know this? maybe Confirmed?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Thanks for the explanation.

Good FRC teams don't like to win via factors other than playing better than their opponents. Winning due to technical fouls, red cards, disabled robots, etc. detract from the quality of the victory.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Gracious Professionalism - GP - speaking for myself, in my view, I am certain this was very tough for the team, and for (hypothetically) the individual who chose and handed the wrong coupon to the ref. That said, I'm against ad hominem (that is, personal / individual) attacks on the ref or any volunteer.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I haven't seen anyone post the rules related to this situation. So, without further comment, let's start there:

The BOLD and BOLD UNDERLINE are mine.

Now for my comments based entirely on my opinion. I watched the webcast and was not in attendance. I know Mark and must admit, I trust his judgement whether I agree with it or not.

Based on the quoted rule, I believe Mark had no choice, he had to make the call that he did. No where in the rule does it say that the Captain needs to verbally request a substitute. It is based entirely on the coupon presented. As to which team needs to be replaced, that must be a verbal communication. So, obviously we are missing some information as to why Madtown was substituted out. I can only assume it was due to a verbal communication error. Again, that is my assumption based on comments in this thread.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

It was announced before the match.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I don't remember any public annoucements being made, other than one that 1323 had been replaced.

I did hear on the sidelines that calls had been made to FIRST HQ.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I believe the head ref in this case had a choice to make, even though the rules as stated say that if a team hands in a backup coupon, the backup robot will be brought in.

According to this verbiage, the head ref has the power to make whatever call he sees fit after receiving input and reviewing the rules. Yes, the rules state that if a team turns in a backup coupon, you will receive a backup team - but if a kid mistakenly hands the ref the wrong coupon, realizes the mistake and is willing to forfeit the correct coupon (and time out) for the situation, does it hurt to vary from the rules in this instance? If the other alliance is in favor of this variation from the rules, does it hurt anyone?

I guess if anything, there needs to be a clause added to the manual that states something along the lines of 'after receipt of an alliances back-up coupon, and a verbal confirmation that this is the coupon they desire to use, a backup team will be brought in for this alliance.'

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

We all were too. It hurt to see such a classy team be eliminated by such a ridiculous decision.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

That's the classiest action I've ever heard of.

Disappointing exit for an amazing team.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I personally spoke to Mark about it before the second match and he told me that he called Frank at hq and Frank said based on the situation what decision should be made. I don't know who made the final call but the decision that was made was in line with FIRST hq. Although I may not agree with it, this is how the process was explained to me.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I don't know if classy is the right word ;).... but we love our buddies on 1323.

We were shocked to watch this, and can't imagine having a season ended like that.

1323 is an aggressive and passionate team that has improved annually, I'm sure they will channel this into a great 2015 season.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

How would you know he is not reasonable or intelligent? Have you been mentored by him for 7 years like me? Has he dropped you off at home because you were stranded after robotics at 11 pm.? Have you won volunteer of the year for FTC? Do you know how much he hated having to make that call?

Mark is the most logical person I know (I know a lot of people) and he was bound by making the correct decision. He explained to me that he doesn't like making tough calls and knows what they mean. He may not make every correct call but I'd like to see you do a better job. I don't agree with the call, but you should realize that you are writing about a hardworking human being, and jumping to conclusions on the basis of being upset.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Spoken for truth. Mark is a great ref, and I know personally that he doesn't like to make calls like this, but he is one of the few refs (especially this year) that listens to you when you're in that question box and he'll always explain calls when you ask. Aside from that, he's a great FTC and FRC mentor, and he was well-deserving of the Woodie Flower's award he won at Sac last year. The work that him and Jill have done with Playing at Learning is tremendous and I can't wait to see all the wonderful things that they'll do in the offseason.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I don't normally post a lot on here, but having read this thread I want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, as Sean said above, Mark is an outstanding member of the FRC community. He has always stood out as a positive role model to our team and others. He has strived to follow gracious professionalism outside the field. Belittling him as a person because of a call where no one currently knows for certain what happened behind the scenes is offensive both to him and to the ideals of FIRST as a whole. We've always turned to him in the past as a great mentor, and the work that he's done for the FIRST community can not be understated.

Secondly, although I was disappointed to see 1323 no longer playing, my understanding was he went to the pits after words and double checked, in addition to all that's been said above. Regardless, in consideration of the fact that no one here really knows what went on behind the scenes, no one has any right to belittle him personally over a call like this. We don't know who made the final decision, nor anything else about this situation.

Mark has always been both a positive role model to members of our team in and out of FRC. No one has the right to belittle his character over a call, especially when no one knows the full details.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I do not want to get crazy involved but what I can say is that Mark did ask 1323 to double check on the whole situation and RC (1323's Lead Mentor) said "No, We are in". I was talking to RC when Mark approached and asked. I believe at that time, RC, and the whole 1323 team was still unaware of the flop in cards given to the Ref as was almost everyone in the pits. There was no announcement in the pits what so ever.
Just wanted to clear that part up as I was 2 feet away from that conversation.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Just to be clear, if the teams in question were not aware of the flop in the cards, then why would the response be "No, we are in?" That specific phrase seems contradictory with the original lack of knowledge of the card flop. I believe that the current lack of understanding about what actually happened means that no one should be coming to any concrete opinions on it just yet.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Just one last point on that topic. The question asked was. "Are you out?"
And I could tell he was kinda confused on what was being asked but I believe that would be anybody's response if asked that same question. And Im not putting the guy down. Ive talked to him a few times over the years and he seems like a really cool guy. I dont want to bash on anybody. Just would like to clear that conversation up as I was present. This is to hopefully avoid any false rumors.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Today, I saw one of the best teams in FIRST crying in their pit when they were forced to sit out of their last match of the 2014 season.

I don't know what else to say... :(

-Mike

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

"Inspiring" definitely isn't the first word you think of.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

While I don't think there is any place for calling this person unintelligent, I can see why several people would say it is unreasonable. To me, this is not really a tough decision to make. A team made a simple mistake, it seems (still waiting for a full story), and the sub-in issue could have been avoided. Doesn't really seem like a tough call to make. +0.02

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yeah, I understand what you're saying and agree it should've been fixed. I was referring to Adam calling Mark unreasonable, not the call.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is the version of events as I understand it too. I also know Manchester was involved, and I believe Frank was the one that made the final call.

While I like Mark personally, and believe he has generally done an excellent job as a referee, I agree with Akash. This should have not been a hard call to make. Giving the field crew the wrong card was an honest mistake, and the field crew was told that 1323 wanted to remain in. Why were they not allowed to correct an honest heat of the moment mistake? If the backup robot card was really "irrevocable," why did the field crew insist that 1323 be subbed out, despite the fact that they as the alliance captain wanted something else? Given that the entire red alliance wanted 1323 to remain in, why was this even an issue?

1323, along with the entire alliance, deserves an apology.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm a bit surprised that Frank from HQ made the call that he did, that's VERY surprising unless he wasn't told the entire situation or misunderstood, I don't see why he would say that they had to stay out given the circumstances.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Thank you to the teams and FIRST members showing their support for our team during an incredibly difficult experience for our team and alliance. Their support made what was the worst experience in FIRST I have ever had slightly more bearable. I think it is more than fair to say that nobody on Team 1323 is currently in any state of mind to write a cohesive, detailed response about what happened during semifinals. However, we will share the facts from our story when we have had more time to think about what happened today. Please refrain from jumping to conclusions about what occurred based on rumors or hearsay.

All I will say right now is that telling our students that their season is over because of a loss is difficult. Telling our students that their season is over because of a situation like this is a decision I cannot begin to understand.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Why is it hard to understand? In an unprecedented move he already retroactively DQ'ed an alliance in two matches for questionable reasons 4 weeks ago.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Are you referring to the whole Pink/Bacon thing?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I wish the MC had done a better job of explaining exactly what had happened to the arena, because immediately after 1323 left the field there was a lot of rampant speculation and accusations thrown in the referee's direction. People always look for a single person or entity to blame for an unfortunate situation, but in this case it is not clear who made the final call, and with what information the call was made. It was a bad situation all around.

I am thoroughly impressed with how 1323 has handled all of this this. They are truly a class act and handled their misfortune far more graciously than I would have. Their season ended with them being forced to remove their robot from the field in the middle of a tight semifinal series, with what turned out to be at least two Wild Card spots awaiting their alliance in the Finals. While they would have had to defeat the #1 seeded alliance in back to back matches to advance to the finals, the 1323/846/2135 alliance was more than capable of such a feat. As soon as alliance selections had finished, I knew that the semifinals were going to be tough. They posted big scores in the quarterfinals, and we narrowly escaped with a victory in SF1-1 thanks in no small part to 1323's versatile offensive play and defense.

As far as what happened: please do not jump to conclusions on this. I was a firsthand observer for much of this incident and am myself confused at who made which decisions.

I was standing right behind 1323's student when they handed their coupon to the head referee. I was actually with 971's student alliance captain adjacent to the question box at the time, ready to turn in the #1 seed's timeout if called upon (254 was busy fixing a gearbox issue and we knew we might need a few minutes).

After SF2-1 (the match preceding our next match), I saw the 1323 student approach the ref with a coupon/coupon(s) in their hand (didn't notice which) along with the captain's armband. The student spoke to the head ref and gave him a coupon, and after a brief conversation that I could not overhear, he turned around and started to head back to the pit. He did not take 3 steps before I stopped and asked him, "Did you guys just call your timeout?", to which he replied, "Yes". I do not know what exactly the exchange with the ref entailed, but it was absolutely clear that the student thought he had called a timeout. At the time I actually thought to myself, "Sweet, we didn't have to use our own timeout." 1323 called the timeout to fix a drive encoder cable that is only used during autonomous mode - certainly not a fatal failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Five-ish minutes later, and the #1 and #4 seeded alliances are getting back into the queuing line to take to the field for SF1-2. I do not know if there was any interaction between the head ref and a representative from 1323 in this intervening period. Once in line, the head ref comes to 1323 and asks which robot is being replaced. I was standing right next to RC, who is surprised and tries to clarify that he wanted a timeout, not a backup robot. The head ref reluctantly sounds like he will let 1323 continue to play at this point in time.

I return to my seat assuming the match will soon begin, but there is now a 15+ minute field delay. I assumed it was FMS issues (the field had a number of problems over the weekend, but that's a topic for another thread) until I heard it announced that 670 was preparing to enter the match. I was as confused as everyone else. When I saw that 1323 was being told to leave the field, I attempted to get to the front of the crowd to talk to the head referee. I said that I was standing right behind the student and that the student thought he had turned in the timeout coupon, and that it was an honest mistake. The ref asserted that the student confirmed it was for a backup robot and then asked me, "Student or mentor?" When I said "Mentor", he said "I cannot talk to you". (It is not clear to me that this is a correct interpretation of T13, but I then knew that my words weren't going to change this situation and I walked away).

Despite what is posted on the FIRST website regarding SF1-2, 1323 left and was replaced by 670. They did an admirable job, but it wasn't enough. It is hard to overcome losing your alliance captain.

A student made a simple mistake, likely due to ambiguous communication between him and the head ref in a panicked moment. This should have been a harmless mistake with an easy remedy. The entire red alliance had zero doubt that 1323 intended to call the timeout all along. Instead, you have team members in tears in their pits. Not because they lost, but because they didn't even get the chance that they earned through their #4 alliance captain position.

What really, really, really grinds my gears is the total hypocrisy of the situation. We have video of missed assists in many of our matches. Non-calls and phantom calls that make absolutely no sense when watching the replay. Bizarre field faults involving hot goals, pedestals, and even transitioning the whole field into teleop 1.5 seconds after the start of autonomous (!). In these situations, we could do nothing but pound sand or get a replay (in the case of the latter issue). Why the double standard when a high school student makes an honest mistake?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Exactly. The under pressure, stressed out high school students (and the robots they build) should never be held to a higher standard than FIRST's field, which is developed by paid professionals. It's just backward. I can't see any positive reason to make the decision that was made, and I know if I made that honest little mistake when I was in high school, and FIRST HQ responded the way they did, I would have left the program. There is no way that the kid, or any person on his team is feeling at all inspired. How do you explain this to your sponsor? I know that sponsors shouldn't care about a teams performance, but the reality is that some do. What mentor wants to be part of a program where you spend tens of thousands of dollars to compete in a poorly thought out game (the whole dead ball thing), with a field that doesn't work, and a set of unenforceable rules, in which you've just been disqualified because one high school kid made a little mistake?

This is really, really bad.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Obviously there is a dark cloud hanging over the Silicon Valley Regional and, until we hear Madtown's version of the story, we are all making conjectures as to what really happened. It is unfortunate that a great team like 1323 was not able to finsh their season by showing their true capabilities. RC and his team have been the epitome of gracious professionalism over the years and, in so many ways, have helped 1678 achieve our current level of success. Thank you RC for all that you do for FIRST and our kids. There is a reason why you are a WFA recipient and your team a past Chairman's winner.

Having said that, I would like to talk about the positive outcomes at this year's SVR. Aside from this one major controversy, this was a very exciting and competitive regional. The depth of talent was remarkable and, during eliminations, you could tell that there was no obvious outcome despite some powerful alliances being formed. I was especially impressed with the quality of some of the rookie and second year teams. 4990 looked like a veteran team both on the field and in the pit. To seed 12th in your first regional is a great accomplishment but you should also be proud of the professionalism that your students showed in all aspects of the competition.

Thank you so much to our partners 368 and 4171 for helping us keep things interesting in the finals. 368's swerve drive was a thing of beauty and your ability to shoot into the high goal on the fly was amazing. This is the second time that 4171 has joined our alliance (you guys helped us win Cal Games last year) and, once again, you did an excellent job by starting the all-important 30-point assist cycle.

Congratulations to teams 254, 971 and 1662 for taking home the winner's trophy; to team 604 for another Chairman's win (how many is that now?); to team 2035 for winning EI (and for having a "rockin" robot); and, finally, to Annette Lane for a well-deserved Woody Flowers award.

For 1678, this was the most competitive and exciting regional we have ever played. We had a blast, made a lot of new friends, and learned a ton about strategy and execution which will help us improve as we move on to champs. Despite breaking down in the finals, I would say that this is our most successful regional showing to date. We are planning to work hard over the next few weeks and look forward to seeing some of you in St. Louis.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I am the Lead Mentor for Team 2135 which was a member of the alliance that was lead by 1323 and included 846 in the Finals at SVR. I am also the father of one of the mentors of 1323.

1323, like so many teams in FRC, have given so much back to the sport, their communities and of course their students. 1323 and the entire FRC community have helped our team on countless occasions without ever asking for anything in return. It is a privilege and an honor to walk with 1323 and our entire FRC family.

I make no comment on the facts of the matter as no one on 2135 were aware of what was happening until after the match. I do not have any additional information to offer on the events and this is not meant to denigrate any individual or group in any way. Things happened.

What I can comment on are two things:

1. 1323 took the matter as the gentlemen and leaders which they are. They calmly walked off the field with their heads held high even though this was a crushing way to cap off thousands of hours of hard work. While they did not agree with the decision, they nevertheless played by the rules and left the field. I am very proud of their maturity and I am worried I would have looked like a screaming two year old had I been in the same position.

2. I shouldn't be surprised by the reaction of the California FRC community to what happened but I was. Every team I saw in the building after the match came up to 1323 to congratulate them on an outstanding season and their entire history in FRC. Most didn't care about what happened, they just needed to show their support. I was totally overwhelmed by the whole thing. FRC and Silicon Valley/California are amazing and we will always be strong with such great people including the teams, the volunteers and the refs - everyone.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

With all the big sharks swimming in the tank it was a great time competing with some of the best teams in First.

As a second year team I am proud to mentor my kids and what they accomplished in the little time they had to build a robot, become a team, and learn how to compete with the robot.

Every time we met and did robotics we learned something new.

To all the people who make the SVR run a big THANK YOU.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Did this match get replayed? That's not something you can't notice...

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

After some time to think about what happened, here is what I have to say about what happened in SF 1-2, and the rest of the regional.

As far as the facts of the situation are concerned, both Brian Bond and Jared are correct. During SF 1-1 our drive encoder wire snagged and was cut, which caused our robot to slam into the driver station wall during autonomous.

When the team got back to the pit and discovered the issue, we knew we needed to fix it for the next match. RC, quickly handed our student a card, and told him to go to the question box and call a timeout. This is where the mistake occurred on our part, in the heat of moment, RC accidentally gave the student the backup card instead of the timeout card. This was not realized at the time, and the student had no reason to believe the card he was handed was the wrong one.

The student went to the question box and verbally requested a timeout, and gave the head ref the card he was handed, which turned out to be the backup card. Although nobody else appears to have overheard this conversation, to question the integrity of the student, who claims to have clearly requested a timeout, is outrageous.

From there, our team went about repairing our robot for the next match. We informed our alliance partners we had called a timeout. At some point during the timeout, the head ref came to our pit and asked if we “were going to be in” for the next match. Without knowing any context to his question, we said yes, we are in. This is where a major miscommunication occurred. Without knowing or hearing any context to the question, nobody on 1323 had any idea anything involving backup robot was being considered. No mention of a backup was ever announced in the pits.

We finished fixing our robot and sent it out to the field, only to be told we would be forced to sit out. The events transcribed as Jared said, with our entire drive team being extremely confused and distraught about the situation. Our drive team explained that they were trying to call a timeout not a backup and that a mistake must have been made. The head ref appeared to understand the error, however after a discussion behind the scoring table with FIRST HQ, we were told we would be forced to sit out.


I will not publicly speculate on who made what decisions, or the officials intentions during communications with our team, nor will we likely ever know exactly what the officials thought was happening. However, the fact that there was a decision actively made to force our team to sit out, and ultimately end our season, while knowing what we had intended to do is a decision that I don't think I will ever understand. In a competition that is supposed to inspire students to pursue STEM, telling our students that even though they worked incredibly hard throughout the entire season, they don't get the chance they earned to compete because of a simple, honest, mistake seems to be just about the least inspiring thing I can think of. This decision, combined with other unfortunate interactions with event officials throughout the event left our students and mentors in a state of frustration that I have never felt before at a FIRST event.

Again we cannot thank our friends enough for their support. The behavior of these teams during this experience is something myself and the rest of 1323 will never forget.

Teams 846 and 2135, you guys were awesome alliance partners, and were completely innocent parties in this ordeal. Your condolences to our team after the matches were greatly appreciated.

Team 670, I am sorry you were placed into this situation. I know it must have been more confusing for you than it was for us as to what was going on. Thank you for being so polite about what happened. One of your mentors brought RC, our drive team and myself waters as we were in tears after the match. This was a true example of gp.

Teams 971, 254, 1662, 1678, 368, 4171, you guys were awesome opponents and your offer to protest as you did was incredibly inspiring. Your teams should never have been placed in a situation where you felt that another team was being wronged to point where you felt you had to protest. Thank you for everything you did.

Team 254, thank you for trying to show support with our banner.

At the end of day, what's done is done. Hopefully, FIRST will learn from this experience and other shocking rulings this season, and in the future, will not disregard it’s own mission statement when making unprecedented rulings during eliminations play.

I expect RC will post his own thought’s on what transpired, over the next few days.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

What?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Is this for real?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Sorry for the late post,

Its taken me a while to write this. Before I start, I can't thank Team 254 enough. You guys are awesome and thank you so much for letting my kids go down with you guys. It meant the world to them. Also thank you to the teams that came by (971/1678/2135/846/604 etc..) You guys were the only reason the event was bearable. Thank you all who have posted/texted me supporting us, it means a ton to us.

This is exactly what happened.

Semi Match 1 our robot in auton ran into the wall. We've seen this happen before, basically we knew our encoder came unplugged. We didn't' call a timeout immediately because it seemed like a simple fix. At SVR it took 1-3 minutes to get just off the field. The second we got back into the pits the wires had came out of the 4 pin encoder. We ripped the timout card in half and gave it to our student who ran over to call a timeout. Thinking double timeouts, use one. Nothing else on our robot was broken except one darn encoder connector.

The student asked for a timeout twice and a poof mentor even asked him what he was asking for. It was a timeout. This was all very rushed because we didn't' want them to not except our timeout. The head ref acknowledged it was a timeout and said you got 6 minutes.

4-5 minutes later the head ref came over to our pit to ask what robot is being subbed out. We were all very very confused as we wanted a timeout. We've had this same situation happen when we took long to get back into the que line. So we just replied, No we are fine, we are in or something to the extent we are not being subbed out. There were 9 kids and about 4-5 kids that heard this same thing.

Once we finished we hustled into the que line and people were asking us why we subbed out? We at this point were just confused as we would never sub out unless our robot tore in half (a bit extreme I know). The head ref came over and started telling us that were taking advantage of the system and we asked for a backup. We immediately started telling him what happened. The head ref would not believe we said we did not want to be subbed out and we were in. Seriously? Can't believe 9 students and 4 different adult? You can make a mistake... After a bit of talking the head ref was fine with what happened and we went onto the field. The head ref said we were taking both timeouts and you are okay to go onto the field.

Once on the field someone behind the scoring table had called Frank or FIRST. The information was relayed to Frank and we were asked to remove our robot from play, which we did. Frank at FIRST made the call, unsure if Frank got all the information. We feel as he was told a distorted view.

I have been apart of FIRST for 9-10 years. I have never ever gone back to the pits crying along with students.

Over this past weekend, we have been harassed by inspectors for having 10-12 batteries charging in the pits and for "apparently" cheating by putting our blocker on and off even tho it was weighed in initially and demonstrated. The head LRI told the person re inspecting our robot to take their sweet time and as long as possible. <- What gives?

The refs missed an absurd amount of calls and we had to "educate" them how the rules worked. The best calls missed were the ones in front of them. We didn't' even get a field fault when two balls were on the field, apparently ref's didn't see it!

All we and the other alliance wanted was to play the match. I'm not upset that we lost to 254/971. We've lost to them countless times, but the fact we got removed and we didn't' have a chance to send our kids to champs.

There was no logic with this call, I said it numerous times this past weekend when I was frustrated with crappy volunteers. This isn't a powertrip time for adults, its a time to let kids learn and play matches. A kid made an honest mistake, he verbally communicated what he and the team wanted. Just because a stupid piece was paper was incorrectly handed does that mean we have to be subbed out?

This is pretty hard to swallow, we wont' be back at this event ever again and I'm sick of these awful rules and standards set by FIRST. How do you hold a kid to something when you can't even hold the adults responsible?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I was told this as well.. From a few different people.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Yes, this seems absurd. How could they possibly even imply that?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is absolutely absurd, and I truly hope that someone misheard something somewhere. Also 254 going down to the field with 1323's students and trying to take their banner reaffirms that 254 is the classiest team in first.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

It wasn't as obvious as you might think. It happened to us twice -- once during qualifications (Match 92), and once during eliminations (SF 1-1).

In Match 92, the autonomous appeared to progress normally, except that our second shot went wild (over the top of the goal, as if the shooter hood were in the wrong position) and the third ball failed to shoot before teleop started. 192 also failed to shoot their second ball, so my immediate thought from the stands was that autonomous was 1-2 seconds short for everyone.

Our code logs a bunch of stuff on the robot's file system every match, including teleop vs. auton and enabled vs. disabled states, so upon examination of the log file after the match we were surprised to find that the robot was in autonomous enabled mode for the first 1.5 seconds, then teleop disabled for 0.5, then autonomous enabled again for 8. We brought it to the attention of the FTA, and the match was replayed (it could be that they were able to correlate this with the FMS logs, but I don't know for sure).

Has anyone seen this at previous events? If not, seems like it's yet another new and exciting failure mode for FMS.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

First off I would like to congratulate 1323 on an amazing performance this weekend and for reacting to this terrible call in a most mature and professional manner that I'm sure very little of us would have been able to do. You are an inspiration to all of us.

I don't know all of the protocols for such an event, but why would they contact Frank, the FRC Director, instead of Aidan, the Chief Referee at FIRST HQ? In all respect to Frank, I don't see how he is the person to contact in this situation above a referee.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is unbelievable... props to all teams involved for not exploding at the scoring table.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This actually sounds like something similar that I was told about by my HS team (223)...from what it sounded like, they weren't being enabled until 1.5 seconds into auto...not sure if it was their own issue in code or the field itself. Will find out more info.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Sounds like there's some 'splainin' to do from HQ.

Hindsight is 20/20. I hope HQ can recognize that a mistake was made and needs to be at the least apologized for.

I'll be interested to hear that side of the story.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This is absolutely appalling that anybody would say that. I am speechless about what to say. One of the most outrageous things I have heard in my time in FIRST.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Wow, this season is just a colossal joke, isn't it? My condolences to RC, who's been a huge resource and good friend to me, as well as everyone from 1323, 846, and 2135.

HQ might as well refund these teams their registration costs, because they just wasted their weekend. Better yet, they should extend a free invitation to St. Louis to them as well. At bare minimum, I'd expect some sort of acknowledgment from HQ that they intentionally screwed three teams out of a positive FRC experience.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Since they didnt offer 624, 233, or 1902, I doubt they offer them.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Not to derail the thread, but yes, we've seen something like it, where the driver station log showed about .5 seconds of teleop enabled in the middle of auto mode. When teleop starts, the robot automatically creates a file on the cRIO. After the match, when I went to check the file to see why the robot stopped driving forward too quickly and our 2 ball timing was off, I noticed there were two of these files, meaning we went into teleop twice in the match.

EDIT- The field also seemed to have a few other issues too, where people would have to constantly unplug then reconnect the timers/team displays/ethernet cables from the driver station control case at the blue side.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Unfortunately, I think you are right. Thankfully both 624 and 1902 ended up becoming eligible for champs, but 233 got shafted :/
That robot and team deserve to make the trip.

It's really weird to think of a Championship without without PINK...

They haven't missed a Championship since their beginning in '99.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Been friends with RC and 1323 for a number of years now. A lot of this just sounds disrespectful to a Chairman's and WFFA winning team.

Even more absurd if the rumors of threatening protesting teams is true. What a disappointing story to hear.

I want to hear the other side of all this, but the fact that these rumors exist is just disheartening. Such a simple call could have avoided so much unnecessary drama.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Quoted for truth. I cant believe they threatened to not let a HALL OF FAME TEAM go to the championship event for doing the exact action you would expect from a HoF team. And kudos to the other teams involved as well for their displays of gracious professionalism.

Although I dont personally know anyone from 1323, I'm sorry that this could happen to anyone.

Edit: Although the threatening is based on hearsay, the point remains. This whole situation was a mess, but the GP shown by all teams involved (at least according to most people in this thread) is the silver lining, so to speak.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

This. Gracious Professionalism is a core value in FIRST and rarely do I see a team refuse to practice it. If this is what was really said, then FIRST (or at least somebody at FIRST) is most certainly not practicing gracious professionalism, in fact, they would be discouraging it in this case which is absolutely appalling.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

For what it's worth, that part is hearsay at this time. I haven't seen anyone from those teams come on and confirm it.

Not that I ever would be, but if I was 254 I would probably call their bluff. Kick an HOF team out of champs that won every event this year and expect it to go over well. Not likely. They'd still be at World Champs that weekend, just a different one.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I thought that this might be a good way to reconcile for the unfortunate and disappointing circumstances. It wouldn't be that hard to extend just one "wildcard" invitation to a deserving team; 2135 and 846 are both already qualified by their Central Valley and Buckeye wins respectively.

I send my regards to 1323 for such an unfortunate situation.

Props to the other alliances for trying to overturn the call. The idea that their champ spots were at risk is outrageous.

I hope that this situation can be resolved in some positive way.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'm almost reluctant to bring this up... But the #6 alliance (1280, 604, 100) called a backup bot before Semis 2 Match 2, in which we subbed our alliance captain, 1280, for a backup bot (the Insomniacs, 2489). Could this have somehow confused the people at the scoring table? Might they have thought the captain of the blue alliance in semis 1 was trying to sub themselves out instead of in semis 2, especially with the card mixup?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

Like I said in my previous post, this was a very confusing situation for all involved. It is important to separate facts from conjecture.

While several people have reported that our team (and others) were threatened for protesting the decision, I want to make it clear that Team 254 did NOT experience anything of the sort. We are confident that no representative of FIRST would ever say something like this.

Every other detail in this thread was observed firsthand by those involved, but to reiterate, Team 254 was never threatened by anyone. I would guess that a volunteer or competitor speculated that this was the case and unfortunately that rumor grew legs.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

My apologies, I did not mean to contribute to spreading rumors. I've added an anecdote to my initial post as well.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'd just like to say thank you to 1323 for giving us the opportunity to be part of your alliance. It was an incredible experience working with you guys, RC and the 1323 crew are a class act on and off the field. We love you guys, loved working with you, and just know that you guys are truly the best team in FRC. What an incredible first three elimination matches, taking it so close to the 1st alliance during SF1-1 was amazing.

I was there when 1323 was pulled from their final match, and the way they walked off the field with class and dignity was proof that they did not deserve what was happening to them, proof of exactly what an amazing, incredible team they are. Words cannot express how much respect these guys deserve for how they handled this situation.

1323 has already elaborated on the circumstances; I'll simply say that from Team 846's standpoint that's exactly what transpired.

We came back from what should have been 1323's second semifinal match to see a great, inspirational team in tears, and that was just way too much for me. What an injustice and a profoundly uninspiring moment. 1323 wasn't the only team crying by the end of this.

Thank you to 2135 for playing so well for our alliance. You guys were great on the inbound, a key part of what made our alliance so strong, and we look forward to seeing you again at Championships.

Thank you to 670 for doing an admirable job subbing in during that final match. Only wish that we played together under better circumstances. You guys are great.

And of course, thank you to everyone who supported our alliance during this ordeal. A mentor from 254 (don't know his name) was clapping while our alliance was taking a group picture after the semifinals, and I cannot even begin to express how much that meant to everyone standing there. Bringing Madtown's banner up, just everything about how people reached out . . . those things were the only good about what happened.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I highly doubt it. We only requested the backup bot after the match that 1323 was not allowed to compete in had finished.

As a part time mentor of 1323, I too am deeply saddened by the events that unfolded. All I can hope for is a better explanation from FIRST for why these decisions were made.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

My apologies for perpetuating this rumor, it was told to me by several long time friends and key volunteers at the event, who I assumed would not have mentioned anything if they were not absolutely sure of the situation. The fact that this is incorrect demonstrates the immense confusion that surrounded the volunteer and competitor base after the event.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

If I remember right, there was a lot of confusion about whether we would actually go in, and we didn't know for certain until after 670 went in. It was a very confusing 10 minutes, but I think that 670 was already in by the time we were confirmed as playing.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2014
 

I'd like to congratulate the alliance (1323, 846 and 2135) for all their achievements up to SVR and your spectacular performance in the first semifinal match.

Team 1323, your performance at CVR was something that our team looks up to and the way you (and your alliance) played during the first semifinal match was nothing short of amazing.

Team 846 and 2135, I cant thank you enough for accommodating for our abrupt entry.

From our perspective, we were quite confused about which alliance we were supposed to sub.

We should NOT have rushed into the situation as we did and instead should have learned more about the situation before making a decision.

For everyone who tried to make things right for Team 1323, thank you for doing so.