Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

What is the rule against driving without bumpers? For example, if a bot loses their bumpers during the match and they continue driving instead of disabling their bot, what are the rules? In the finals of the Pine Tree district event yesterday, one of the opposing alliance members continued to drive and slam into us despite losing their entire bumper. Our alliance captain attempted to speak to the referee about this, only to be told it was legal.

I could swear there was a rule about driving without bumpers. Can someone clarify this for me? Thank you.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Robots that are not in compliance with bumper rules will be disabled. [G20] Losing bumpers entirely counts as non-compliance. [R19]

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

I thought you got disabled if you lost a bumper.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

The referee told our alliance captain driving with no bumper was "his call" and legal.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

The robot should have be disabled by the field personal. Like Max said

Not a lot of room for discretion. Also not up to the team to disable the referee should have done it.

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Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Speaking from experience (we lost a bumper in the finals at Midwest) the robot should be disabled.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

It's just too bad it had to happen in finals! And yes, robots are supposed to be disabled as soon as they lose a bumper. This, of course, can result in the occasional heartbreaker match but it happens very rarely.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Unless the referee simply did not know the rules, I can think of two reasons why the robot would not have been disabled:

- The bumper was in a "strange" position, but still within the rules
- The bumper damage was caused by a foul committed by the other alliance

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

That's not always the case. The other alliance must have actively been trying to force them into a penalty for G14 to apply (which I've never seen happen ever).

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

It's possible the ref felt aggressive defense/contact by the OP's alliance caused the opponent's bumper to fall off, which could make G27 apply.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Even if G27 was applied, the robot who lost its bumpers should still have been disabled. The only exception to G20 is G14.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

You guys are right, the ref should have disabled the robot during the match. Another perfect example of refs not knowing the rules.....

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Thank you for your responses. It was too bad it happened in match 3 of the finals.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Since this is not a penalty, the why the bumper came of is immaterial. The rule calls for disablement. If the bumper came of because of egregious actions of the other alliance, that would be a penalty against the other alliance.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

From what I saw, the bumper came off after the bot in question attempted to defend by pushing.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Since bumpers are supposed to be robustly attached, it would have to be very egregious behavior to earn a penalty for causing someone's bumpers to come off.

I cannot judge the referees decision from a distance. The only option for him after the end of a match would be to call a replay. Maybe he didn't feel the incident effected the match enough to replay it.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

I remember watching video from Groton of 230. They took a hard hit near the end of a match and their bumper fell off. They were immediately disabled by the refs. It did not really affect the match though, as there were only about 10 seconds left.

Edit: I found the video http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2014ctgro_qm15 It was an early qualification match at Groton.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Unless an opponent bot used a ratchet wrench to unbolt those bumpers, I wouldn't expect any G14 tech fouls :p

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Video of the match in question can be found at:
http://new.livestream.com/nefirst/me-pinetree

Around 2:56:32 with ~25 seconds left in finals match 3.

Off the cuff, to me, it doesn't look like it would have impacted the final outcome of the match, but one full corner bumper piece falls off of one of the red alliance robots, which proceeds to remain active until the end of the match.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

The issue with the rule that goes beyond refs not knowing the rules is how the rule is enforced. For a robot to be disabled a ref needs to go to the driver station and use the E-stop button. I speak from experience on this, my team lost a bumper during a match and we just stopped driving because we knew we needed to be disabled and waited around. After 15-20 seconds a ref showed up hit the E-stop and then walked away. He then came back after the match to explain why he did this we (the drive team) understood and then continued on.


There was a conversation about this issue earlier in the season that if a team lost their bumper towards the end of the match (less than 30 seconds) the robot wouldn't be disabled because it took a while to get a robot disabled.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

The head ref can also turn around and have the scorers disable the robot via the FMS.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

This was the method we used at both the events I reffed.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

It also only takes 5 seconds to run down the entire length of the field, even with people in the way. I learned this the hard way this past weekend.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Now that I have been a Ref, I can appreciate the 2" bumper zone. If any part of the bumper contacts the field (a clear violation of the 2" rule), then it is a disable per G20. Either a Ref hits the e-stop, or the Head Ref asks Field Management to disable.

In my opinion, it would be very hard to get a G14 exception to the G20 rule. Bumpers are supposed to take a lot of abuse. More likely G27 would apply. If it got anywhere close to a G14, then a G27 Yellow Card.

Re: Question about losing bumpers during a match?
 

Yeah, that's how it worked in Windsor. In Montreal, they did it by e-stop. I think it's just a matter of the FTA and scorekeeper's preference.

Either way, I like to make sure that a team knows why they were deactivated as soon as possible, usually by asking the FTA to run over and let them know. Sometimes, things get in the way of that, though... like if the FTA is already busy helping a team when the deactivation occurs.