Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Just wondering if people would like to chime in on the maximum number of replays you have seen in eliminations. Since they are replays there are no official records of them, but I was just wondering since this weekend in Las Vegas was crazy for us.

At the Las Vegas Regional, the Semi Finals 2 took 6 matches to decide the winner.

Match 1: A cameraman blocked a ball resulting in a "field fault"
Match 2: 1717 didn't move for 30 seconds blamed on field
Match 3: Good. 1717 still didn't move, but blamed on bot. 2122/399/1725 win.
Match 4: Good. 399 blew the 120A breaker, 1717/3476/687 win.
Match 5: 399 tips onto 2 balls, dead ball confusion ensued, match stops early.
Match 6: Good. 1717/3476/687 win.

It was crazy, and our 120A blew because of the tough back to back matches and our 6 cim drive... Has anyone ever played more than 6 in Elims?

It was really tough on the electrical systems...

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

The finals of IRI 2010 went to 5 or 6 matches, don't remember off the top of my head. That was due to ties though, not field faults.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Isn't there supposed to be a certain amount of time between matches to give robots a break? Or is this different for replays? Would someone with knowledge beyond mine please enlighten me?

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Was the camera man official media or team media?

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

6 minute field timeout. I wasn't watching Vegas but I imagine that's what they did.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Official Media.

I guess the way I understood it was refs are apart of the field so if they redirect it...o well. But if anyone else redirects it, and it affects the match, field fault.

I'd say 6 minutes in between sounds about what it was but everyone's motors were cooking! We took a timeout to change our 120A breaker.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

I believe official media, had a big tripod + professional news camera. Knocked a ball that was most likely going to hit his camera, and his tripod was on the HP zone.

There was a LOT of time between matches due to the FTA/CSAs figuring out what was going on and the refs talking. The 6 min back to back timing was meet and probably exceeded.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but what is "IRI"? Anyways, as I've heard, there is no such thing as a dumb question ... unless the person asking the question is dumb.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Indian Robotics invitational, one of the biggest off seasons over the summer usually in July. Teams have to apply and get accepted to get in. http://www.indianaroboticsinvitational.org/

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

IRI is an off season Invitational held @ Lawrence North High School in Indianapolis, Indiana.
It's basically the FIRST All Star Game.
Think the Championship in concentrated form.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

I think were gonna have that issue @ MSC with the TV crew taping the event for the public TV broadcast.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Thanks! I can't seem to find any matches archived on Watch First Now ... do you know where I could find past matches?

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

We didn't get to six matches, but at Groton we played a match, were told we had to replay, played the match again, were told it didn't count again, then played (and won) twice. We were never told why.

It is really stressful on the robots, playing these matches back to back. We weren't prepared with batteries and spares to be out on the field this much, especially after the morning where we had two more replayed matches. I know for us there was at least one set of matches where there was much less than a 6 minute field timeout. I like these replays because we ended up with an additional 5 matches for our team in eliminations and qualifications and a bunch of driver practice with our alliance that really helped our elimination alliance make it to the finals.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Yeah with the chances of balls going anywhere, you might want them to stand back father then usual and keep them in the loop about what to do if a ball heads there way.


http://www.ihigh.com/school27076/index.html Should have some old matches.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Thanks for the videos! I'll take a look at them...

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

This reminds me of Curie in 2011. The video and audio guys filming 1717 put their boom mic over the opposing human player inbound station. They ended up blocking several tubes from being thrown in. The HP was not happy and they were told to move and did so. This kind of interference didn't warrant a replay, not that it would've necessarily changed the match outcome.

Perhaps we need to be doing a better job in general educating those with field access.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

In south florida the official media stood in the blue alliance in bounding station a lot however I don't think it caused any replays.

We did have to play 3 replays. 1 due to a full court shot being counted 1 due to a dead ball procedure error and 1 due to 4 robots loosing communication.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Here is a post I made a few weeks ago after my team competed at the Smoky Mountains Regional:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=Replays

We had a pretty crazy time and unfortunate luck with replays this year and we believe it contributed to our loss which is unfortunate but part of the game.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

At UNH our alliance including 58 & 4555 had to play 5 semi-final matches and we too have a 6 CIM drivebase so we feel you!

Match 1- Clean (blue wins)
Match 2- Clean (red wins)
Match 3- Blue ball accidentally lands in a red robot who can't remove it so dead ball called. Blue robot 58 dies with 30 seconds left while holding the new blue ball. Dead ball called but never granted. Blue had the lead but a last second red ball was scored which may have tipped the scales in red favor. Rematch
Match 4- Red pedestal didn't light up in the final 20 seconds. Rematch
Match 5- Clean match aside for multiple breakdowns on both sides of the glass.

Our CIMs did trip the 120A breaker in Finals match 2 but we were able to cool them down for finals match 3.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Whow! At WPI we were told that a delay in the pedistal was NOT a reason for a replay???

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Interesting. We were told that if the pedestal did not light up to talk to the FTA & Head Ref after the match. If we had lost the match they would have granted a replay. I heard at some events they would grant the replay if the difference was a reasonable to have made up with the time left.

There were several matches including one of our qualification match replays where no rematch was granted because we had won the match.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

How long of a delay? A short delay is normal... an excessive delay (like 30 seconds) often results in a repay.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Not sure if you are referencing Curie 2011 or Vegas 2014 regarding the not warranting a replay, but the interference at Vegas did change the game, the ball was headed straight for the 1717 HP with 1717 waiting for the ball right in front of him. The cameraman knocked the ball back into the field of play and it had to be chased down on the opposite of the field under heavy defense. It could very easily have cost them 15-20 seconds to retrieve the ball vs the couple seconds catching/tossing would take.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

The interference at Vegas did not significantly change the outcome of the semifinals match. The margin of victory of the first match was 78 points (203 to 125). This is more than the 60 points of a perfect cycle (and how many perfect cycles have we seen with a catch?). A perfect cycle under heavy defense takes much longer than 15 or 20 seconds, and would still not have been enough to change the outcome of the match. The actions of the cameraman did not significantly impact the outcome of this match.

There was a match at Vegas on Friday, Q-41, where a referee punched a ball that was coming at him. The result of this match was a tie. In this case the referee's actions did have a very significant impact on the outcome of the match, as 15-20 seconds chasing down the ball could have drastically changed the outcome of this match. No replay was given for this match.

I would like to see the head referee and the FTA be more consistent in their decisions of what merits a replay based on outside interference and the significance of it's impact on the outcome of the match.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

A simple solution to that would be to not shoot the ball at a referee...

Last weekend I looked up from punching in a truss to see a ball flying at my face. I punched the ball back into the field, as I value my face more than someone's match win. Referee's positions are outlined in the manual. It's no different than hitting the allaince wall and having the ball bounce back into play.

Cameramen locations are not mentioned in the manual, so I could why that could be cause for a replay, if their actions were deamed to affect the outcome of the match.

Tl;dr, don't hit referees and expect them to help you.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

It was actually the semifinals. We came out on the losing end, but it was 5 very close, intense matches. We had a simiar thing happen in the semifinals on Newton field in 2010...won the first match, then 2 ties, then we finally won match 4.

I haven't seen one go that long due to replays. We had 2 replays due to field faults at Waterford last week, but not in the same round - one in the semifinals and one in the finals.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

In the west Canada Regional, we only had one replay, because the volunteers forgot to give our alliance a ball. I was quite glad we got to replay, though, because our robot battery failed in the middle of that match. :ahh:

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Good info.

With respect to Q-41, it is hard to assign either way how much time is gained or lost. How can time lost due to a deflected ball bouncing back into play be compared with how much time it takes a volunteer to chase down a ball if it is not directly deflected back in? Personally, I see it as a wash one way or another, especially with the inconsistent Human play inbounding a ball we have seen. Not including the time to retrieve the balls that have wandered past the volunteers, I have seen many human players (all positions) hold the ball up to 40 seconds trying to get a perfect throw into a bot after the ball went out-of-bounds. I would venture to say, on average, that can easily eclipse any extra times needed to chase down a ball deflected back inbounds.

Besides refs, I have also seen many cases where volunteers have stuck their hands up and deflected the balls back in, both accidental and on purpose. I think the larger problem here is the lack of definition of interference of "outside of game field", especially how it ties into rule G11. I would rather see a cameraman and other nearby personnel be given the opportunity to defend themselves and/or their property from a loose ball without fear of causing an interference fault. If there is no malicious intent to cause a delay, any non-field-of-play person should be seen as no different than hitting a table or chair or whatever. Luck of the bounce, I suppose.

With all that said, I need to applaud team 1717 and their alliance for surviving the grudge match as they did. I really liked the robustness and repeatability of their design, and was fascinated by their serpent-like defense that was effective with minimal contact to any other bot. Here's to hopefully meeting up again in St. Louis, either as alliance partners or competitively!

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Curie 2011

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

Usually the crew visits one of the district events to get a feel for where they will lay out their equipment. I'm assuming they did this again this year. It's not something that will be left to chance.

Re: Record Number of Replays in Elims?
 

I don't think that many teams are purposely shooting balls at the referees, the cameramen, or out of bounds. Other robots hit your robot and affect your shots. Shots don't always go to your human player. It's part of the game. I also don't see how this is relevant to the issue at hand.

It's not a matter of protecting your face as a ref or your equipment as a cameraman, it's a matter of "should a replay have been granted?".

Referee and volunteer positions are not mentioned in the game manual. Is it grounds for a replay if a volunteer running the media streaming PC punches a ball away to protect their PC? This happened several times in Vegas.

This is the root cause. Again, there needs to be more consistency in the decisions of what merits a replay based on outside interference and the significance of it's impact on the outcome of the match, especially within the same regional. The bottom line is that it's very clear that in this case the cameraman's actions did not significantly affect the outcome of the match, and thus it makes no sense to have granted a replay.