Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

It's given them a much larger selection of great alliance partners.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was in response to people complaining about COTS parts trivializing the design challenges of FIRST ("buying a robot," etc), not in response to people (correctly) saying that COTS parts are a very good thing and have greatly improved FIRST.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

If the statement was about the bottom 10%-20% of teams I have a really unpopular response for them: Maybe FRC isn't for you. There might be benefit in going to a different program with lower costs (FTC,VEX) while you build up the resources needed to compete in FRC. This includes mentorship, community, machining, and monetary resources.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

I wouldn't jump straight to brag, but we are proud of what we are able to accomplish within our resources. FRC558 works from a decent sized build area with only a hand tools, drill press, band saw, belt sander, and drum sander. Building within a teams real resources is one of the hardest things for a team to learn to do. We operate under a couple of mottos on the design side of the team:

"Steal from the best, design the rest" (draw inspiration from what you've seen work and integrate with your design)
"Why build what you can buy?" (within reason)

There is plenty of innovation to be had with COTS parts. Part integration and using products for things they were not originally intended are found on machines every year, if you just take the time to look and talk to teams about it.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

I have been around as a mentor since 2000 and I can tell you that things are so much better now and way more competitive now at every level. Every team has the ability to focus on innovative design concepts, rather simple reliability. As mentioned previously most matches were won or lost by counting how many robots were stuck driving in a circle.

In my opinion the current KOP rules more closely simulates the real world of engineering anyway. I worked as a designer in the food & packaging industries for many years. Most of the designs in our industry were a collection of COTS parts that were custom packaged for our design task. Truly custom design was only performed on about 25% of the overall production line and about half of that was outsourced.

In my industry if your boss found you spending hours designing an unproven custom gearbox when you could have purchased it from a catalog in 10 minutes, you would have a lot of explaining to do. Why not use your time to create innovative overall designs rather than solving problems that have already been solved. Its a valid question.

Its important for the kids to understand how a gearbox works, but they do not need to design it from scratch to have the full engineering experience.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

Yes, that's an entire robot. It has a chassis, drive train, can pass inspection, and play in the competition. And nowhere in my post did I say that doing so "trivializes" FRC, particularly since in the very next sentence I talk about how having the fundamentals of a robot provided in the kit are a good thing since raising the floor also raises the ceiling. My team particularly benefits from the KOP. We don't have a lot of equipment, mostly hand power tools, so being able to start with the chassis is ideal for us.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

Then what exactly is "lost?" What benefit was there to a competition where most teams struggle to get something that moves?

Also, I have a hard time construing something that's not at all designed to play the specific game an "entire" robot.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

Small Parts Catalog from 1996 with the winning robot from Ramp N Roll.
Some day I will tell you how this machine was involved in the creation of the term "Gracious Professionalism"

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

The benefit was the experience of building the chassis and drive train, of having the students innovate and work with what they were given. Of having built something completely from scratch. Now that innovation has shifted to the manipulators and autonomous mode, with the upper echelon teams also being free to develop their drive trains and chassis. I really don't see what you're arguing about. All I said was "something" was lost when they transitioned towards a more COTS oriented foundation, and that whatever was lost was offset by what was gained with respect to opening up the game to more teams.

A team can purchase everything necessary to create a robot (including elements specifically designed for the individual competition, especially Aerial Assist) and assemble it. I suppose we can argue about whether or not using AndyMark's bumper kits count as assembly, but I put that on the same level as having to cut the frame to the right size.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

I don't think the vast majority of teams are capable of making gearboxes from scratch, so I find it hard to lament the "loss" of this particular challenge.

Students still have to innovate and work with what they're given. What they're given now is strictly better, as far as I can tell, than what they were given in the past.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

Judging from the issues some teams have with bumpers... Nothing is trivial.:)

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

As I recall, before AndyMark, there was darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

No Ed, you're confusing BC (Before COTS) with After Aerial Assist. :P

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

I think that was me. ;)

Re: What was there before AndyMark?
 

You had a gearbox; the drill motors were attached to them.

But you're right, things are better for teams now then they were in the past.