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MARS_James 11-04-2014 12:49
Florida Rankings 2014
 
So I decided to utilize the standardized district rankings to rank the teams in Florida. In doing so I realized that at the 2 Florida competitions 1 of our 2 Chairman's, 1 of our 2 Engineering Inspiration, 7 of our 24 other award, and 12 of 48 elimination slots went to outside of state teams. which doesn't help with a lot of teams rankings being so close together.

Code:
Rank        Team        Total
1        180        134
2        179        116
3        744        99
4        1592        93
5        1251        89
6        108        88
7        79        85
8        233        84
9        1065        69
10        3932        68
11        4118        66
12        86        64
13        3410        62
14        2383        60
15        2152        58
16        4592        56
17        3992        52
18        5196        50
19        801        49
20        1523        48
21        5283        48
22        5145        46
23        4013        46
24        21        44
25        3556        40
26        1902        38
27        3653        36
28        386        36
29        2797        32
30        4065        32
31        3502        30
32        5028        30
33        5276        30
34        4769        29
35        3557        28
36        4024        28
37        5335        26
38        2556        26
39        945        25
40        4622        25
41        1557        24
42        59        24
43        3659        24
44        4352        24
45        5007        22
46        4833        21
47        4562        21
48        4064        20
49        3164        20
50        3627        20
51        2425        20
52        4224        20
53        1369        20
54        1649        18
55        5187        18
56        5329        18
57        4471        17
58        4517        17
59        2916        16
60        3242        12
61        3376        12
62        5018        12
63        1604        8
I did standardize every teams first two competitions to 12 matches, and doubled your score if you only went to 1 competition.

Joe Ross 11-04-2014 14:45
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
I compared your Florida Rankings, to my World Rankings, and found several discrepancies. Your method sounds the same, normalize to 12 matches and double if only 1 event, so the results should be comparable. Many point values were 1 point off, and a few are 2 points off, which are probably rounding differences.

3992: I have 60 points, 10 draft, 0 elims, 7 wins (normalized to 7.5), 5 awards x2 since they only played one event.
3556: 1 have 58 points, 10 draft, 0 elims, 8 wins (normalized to 9.5), 0 awards x2 since they only played one event.
4224: I have 16 points, 4 wins (normalized to 4 wins) x2 since they only played one event.

MARS_James 11-04-2014 19:26
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Ross (Post 1372617)
I compared your Florida Rankings, to my [url=http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127470World Rankings[/url], and found several discrepancies. Your method sounds the same, normalize to 12 matches and double if only 1 event, so the results should be comparable. Many point values were 1 point off, and a few are 2 points off, which are probably rounding differences.

3992: I have 60 points, 10 draft, 0 elims, 7 wins (normalized to 7.5), 5 awards x2 since they only played one event.
3556: 1 have 58 points, 10 draft, 0 elims, 8 wins (normalized to 9.5), 0 awards x2 since they only played one event.
4224: I have 16 points, 4 wins (normalized to 4 wins) x2 since they only played one event.
You are correct thank you for the corrections

AlexD744 11-04-2014 19:36
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Welp, now all the work I put in is useless. Shoulda posted sooner lol. Regardless, I found some errors in mine when checking with yours.

Does anyone know what the talk is of Florida moving to districts?

dodar 11-04-2014 20:07
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexD744 (Post 1372697)
Welp, now all the work I put in is useless. Shoulda posted sooner lol. Regardless, I found some errors in mine when checking with yours.

Does anyone know what the talk is of Florida moving to districts?
I dont think we have the amount of teams nor the density to do it for atleast 5 years or so.

AlexD744 11-04-2014 22:26
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1372704)
I dont think we have the amount of teams nor the density to do it for atleast 5 years or so.
I should have re-phrased my question: Does anyone have info regarding what FIRST in Florida leadership is thinking about eventual transition?

On a personal note, I think we have almost enough teams to host a district with 4 districts. Although, at the current growth rate, I would agree with you and extend to say we'll never have enough teams, since we have had net loss of teams the past two years and this year we lost almost 25% of the teams that competed last year! However, I'm of the belief that we would have better retention rates in a district model, as teams get more for their money.

My biggest concern, however, is getting the volunteer base ready, as that is one of the largest hurdles when adding events quickly. I know others have also expressed concerns about the loss of the international teams that we compete with every year.

dodar 11-04-2014 23:01
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexD744 (Post 1372742)
I should have re-phrased my question: Does anyone have info regarding what FIRST in Florida leadership is thinking about eventual transition?

On a personal note, I think we have almost enough teams to host a district with 4 districts. Although, at the current growth rate, I would agree with you and extend to say we'll never have enough teams, since we have had net loss of teams the past two years and this year we lost almost 25% of the teams that competed last year! However, I'm of the belief that we would have better retention rates in a district model, as teams get more for their money.

My biggest concern, however, is getting the volunteer base ready, as that is one of the largest hurdles when adding events quickly. I know others have also expressed concerns about the loss of the international teams that we compete with every year.
I can agree with most of that. But the biggest loss for "Florida" teams has been the loss of Puerto Rican teams. My first 2 years, I remember Orlando having like 6-8 of them; now there seems to be something like 2-3.

Also concerning volunteers for districts, I would see alot of current team mentors volunteering in off-weeks; that could help the normal volunteers out some.

Swan217 12-04-2014 00:18
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexD744 (Post 1372742)
I should have re-phrased my question: Does anyone have info regarding what FIRST in Florida leadership is thinking about eventual transition?

On a personal note, I think we have almost enough teams to host a district with 4 districts. Although, at the current growth rate, I would agree with you and extend to say we'll never have enough teams, since we have had net loss of teams the past two years and this year we lost almost 25% of the teams that competed last year! However, I'm of the belief that we would have better retention rates in a district model, as teams get more for their money.

My biggest concern, however, is getting the volunteer base ready, as that is one of the largest hurdles when adding events quickly. I know others have also expressed concerns about the loss of the international teams that we compete with every year.
Speaking for the Orlando Regional Planning Committee, we're still exploring our options. There are many pros & cons to a district format, and many things that make Florida a unique situation not suited for exactly copying the other district models. One is not just team density, but location of the teams in the state, as well as the overall geography of the state. There's a lot of dead zones between clusters of teams. And many of the infant-mortality has come from the JC-Penney grant teams that never established a stronger sponsor base.

Schools are different - you don't have the large indoor spaces of schools up North, instead you have sprawling outdoor campuses. Teams that come to Florida are unique - how many Regionals can boast teams from Australia, Dominican Rep, Puerto Rico, Brazil, & Mexico? Not to mention we're a huge draw for snowbots ;).

Preserving the integrity of the competition & volunteer base are essential for us, and are main challenges in creating more competitions. It's been challenging enough for us to populate two regionals of volunteers, nevermind five or six. I understand with the large increase in districts up in Michigan, (not to mention the stressful game design this year) volunteers are being taxed to (past) their limits -4,5,6 events. Whatever we do in FL will have to have a strong volunteer development program first.

Plus like I said, we've got some ideas of our own to increase value at competitions (anyone heard of #botsonyachts?) without making any potential sacrifices to quality. Look at RoboVisionOD, RoboShow, and Thursday workshops. Not to mention the Mouse in the room down here...

TL/DR: We've got a lot of work to do before we can do districts here in Florida.

Moon2020 12-04-2014 12:32
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan217 (Post 1372786)
Teams that come to Florida are unique - how many Regionals can boast teams from Australia, Dominican Rep, Puerto Rico, Brazil, & Mexico? Not to mention we're a huge draw for snowbots ;).
Plus the United Kingdom and Germany. I believe the Turkish Team was also registered for 2014 Orlando, but they dropped out. I'd have to look back in my records, but we might have also had a Team from Israel one year.

Lack of sustainability due to funding and/or loss of strong mentors are the two biggest factors.

As Daniel stated, the J.C. Penney Grants had a huge impact on our young FL Teams.

Additionally, the loss of critical mentoring assets due to work contracts ending (people seeking work outside the area/in another state) and sometimes entire companies closing their doors also has a huge impact. Did anyone notice that USA is no longer one of the Sponsors for the Orlando Regional and Team 801 or that Lyman (2757 BAD) and Space Coast Jr./Sr. (1875 Purple Haze) no longer have their FRC Teams?

MARS_James 12-04-2014 14:00
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon2020 (Post 1372857)
Did anyone notice that USA is no longer one of the Sponsors for the Orlando Regional and Team 801 or that Lyman (2757 BAD) and Space Coast Jr./Sr. (1875 Purple Haze) no longer have their FRC Teams?
Don't forget 3 more teams who did not compete this year
North Miami Beach (168)
Oak Ridge High (665)
Nature Coast Technical (1612)

Add in:
Poinciana High School (1543)
Fort Walton Beach High (1999)
Palm Bay High (2023)

and you can round out veteran teams since 2011 that we have lost.

Moon2020 12-04-2014 22:32
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
I started compiling a list of FL FRC Teams no longer competing. It is a long list.
I also noticed that several of the Teams have crossed over to being FTC Teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1372880)
Don't forget 3 more teams who did not compete this year
North Miami Beach (168)
Oak Ridge High (665)
Nature Coast Technical (1612)

Add in:
Poinciana High School (1543)
Fort Walton Beach High (1999)
Palm Bay High (2023)

and you can round out veteran teams since 2011 that we have lost.

Moon2020 13-04-2014 21:19
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
There may be a few missing, but here is the list of Florida Teams lost (71) and the last year they competed:

147 St. Petersburg Deep Thunder 2004
168 North Miami Beach Mechanical Investigation Bureau 2013
186 Lake Buena Vista The Alliance 2004
212 Miami Robotics And Creative Engineering 2003
267 Parkland Demolition Squad 2004
312 St. Petersburg Heat Wave 2008
408 Pompano Beach The RoboTicks 2010
425 Melbourne Spartans 2009
459 Gainesville Rampage Robotics 2006
582 Jacksonville The Viking Electros 2005
588 Jacksonville Jag-tron'x 2005
654 Tallahassee Mechateuthis Dux 2003
665 Orlando PHAT/Motor Monkeys 2013 FTC
685 Coconut Creek 2003
710 Fort Lauderdale PAW 2006
762 Altamonte Springs Patriots 2004
1029 Miami Lakes WolfCats 2009
1062 Celebration Celebration Robotics 2007
1068 Orlando The Ninjaneers 2005
1083 Orlando Team Emoticons 2005
1242 Plantation Team S.M.I.L.E.Y 2008
1341 Sarasota The Knights Who Say "Nee" 2009
1368 Clearwater Perpetual Motion 2007
1390 St. Cloud WELETHEDAWGSOUT 2010
1402 Orlando Freedom Patriots 2006
1461 Miami Springs Golden Hawks 2004
1497 Jacksonville Ram Robotics 2005
1543 Kissimmee Cyclone Psychos 2012
1612 Brooksville Robo-Sharks 2013
1694 Orlando Walt Disney Robo Warriors 2007
1744 Naples Deep Tinkers 2008
1841 plantation robo knights 2008
1842 Fort Pierce Twisted E.G.O. 2007
1875 Cocoa Cat VI 2012
1889 Wellington Xbot 360 2009
1999 Fort Walton Beach O.U.T.E.R L.I.M.I.T. 2012
2023 Melbourne PiraTech 2011
2100 Port St. Lucie M Squared 2008
2278 Orlando AVENGING PLUTO 2007
2422 Davenport Bucket O' Bolts 2009
2757 Longwood B.A.D. (Built And Dangerous!) 2013 FTC
3149 Lakeland PANDAMONIUM! 2011
3332 Melbourne HustlerTech 2011
3364 Tallahassee Panhandle Pirates 2010
3518 3810 W Educational Path LHS Panthers 2011
3520 Coral Springs RoboColts 2012
3580 Cape Coral Marinerds 2012
3592 Port Orange Sharks 2011
3611 Lynn Haven Dukes Of Mosley 2013
3622 Boca Raton Robocats 2011
3732 Miami The Raging Tornadoes 2013
3782 Panama City Rams 2013
3790 Bradenton Lakewood Ranch Mustangs 2013
3803 Miami Lightning Robotics 2011
3938 Miami Radix Robotics 2013
4052 Fort Myers Wolfpack 2013
4066 Groveland MechMate 2013
4088 Port Charlotte Flash4ward 2013
4133 6406 E Chelsea St S2-Boltz 2012
4157 Fort Myers Imaginarium 2012
4179 Cantonment Tahisco Techs 2013
4184 Naples Wreck-techs 2013
4190 Port Richey Hephaestus 2012
4197 Dade City Lacoochee Cowboys 2013
4214 Riverview Robo-Flames 2012
4222 Sanford Frolicking Nerds 2012
4223 Lakeland Robo-Flight-Transformer 2013
4321 Jacksonville Vikings 2013
4333 Tampa Team MOSI 2012
4341 Mulberry Panther Robotics 2013
4706 Miami Bulls 2013

brrian27 16-04-2014 07:11
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Would Florida ever consider an offseason State Championship? Similar to what Minnesota or other states do. This could help ease the transition into districts.

MARS_James 16-04-2014 07:49
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brrian27 (Post 1374515)
Would Florida ever consider an offseason State Championship? Similar to what Minnesota or other states do. This could help ease the transition into districts.
I am sure we would but where would we do it, but how many teams would we cut it off at, we could easily invite every team and still give them 9-10 matches, or we could invite the top 32 and give them 13-15 matches

techtiger1 16-04-2014 08:11
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
I think 1345 Stranahan high school is missing from the inactive list.

Richard Wallace 16-04-2014 09:16
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan217 (Post 1372786)
Speaking for the Orlando Regional Planning Committee, we're still exploring our options. ...

TL/DR: We've got a lot of work to do before we can do districts here in Florida.
Don't wait too long. Yes it is hard work, but it has to be done, and soon. Is your committee talking with the other one down in Ft. Lauderdale?

I have seen the District system from both perspectives now. Seven seasons in St. Louis as a team mentor, event volunteer, and planning committee member. Five seasons now in Michigan.

The FRC has evolved since 1996, my rookie season. The vision and mission have not changed: we are still a volunteer community aspiring to "transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders." However, the means to that end has changed over the years. Our first step away from the modest beginning was Championships in Orlando. The second step was decentralized planning by regional committees and directors, enabling growth through geographic spread. The third step, begun by the FiM organization and spreading across the community, enables further growth by lowering cost barriers and improving competitiveness -- a natural consquence when teams play more matches.

The District competition that I help to plan and host now requires about 5% of the budget that the St. Louis Regional required when I was part of that planning committee. Most of the difference (>$200k) went to professional event services and to venue rental. My opinion, apparently shared by many in the FRC community, is that those costs inhibit growth.

Moon2020 16-04-2014 18:26
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Yup! Thanks! I sure did miss Team 1345! They have now been added to the inactive list.

There may be a few missing, but here is the list of Florida Teams that have become inactive (72) and the last year they competed:

147 St. Petersburg Deep Thunder 2004
168 North Miami Beach Mechanical Investigation Bureau 2013
186 Lake Buena Vista The Alliance 2004
212 Miami Robotics And Creative Engineering 2003
267 Parkland Demolition Squad 2004
312 St. Petersburg Heat Wave 2008
408 Pompano Beach The RoboTicks 2010
425 Melbourne Spartans 2009
459 Gainesville Rampage Robotics 2006
582 Jacksonville The Viking Electros 2005
588 Jacksonville Jag-tron'x 2005
654 Tallahassee Mechateuthis Dux 2003
665 Orlando PHAT/Motor Monkeys 2013 FTC
685 Coconut Creek 2003
710 Fort Lauderdale PAW 2006
762 Altamonte Springs Patriots 2004
1029 Miami Lakes WolfCats 2009
1062 Celebration Celebration Robotics 2007
1068 Orlando The Ninjaneers 2005
1083 Orlando Team Emoticons 2005
1242 Plantation Team S.M.I.L.E.Y 2008
1341 Sarasota The Knights Who Say "Nee" 2009
1345 Ft. Lauderdale Platinum Dragons 2010
1368 Clearwater Perpetual Motion 2007
1390 St. Cloud WELETHEDAWGSOUT 2010
1402 Orlando Freedom Patriots 2006
1461 Miami Springs Golden Hawks 2004
1497 Jacksonville Ram Robotics 2005
1543 Kissimmee Cyclone Psychos 2012
1612 Brooksville Robo-Sharks 2013
1694 Orlando Walt Disney Robo Warriors 2007
1744 Naples Deep Tinkers 2008
1841 plantation robo knights 2008
1842 Fort Pierce Twisted E.G.O. 2007
1875 Cocoa Cat VI 2012
1889 Wellington Xbot 360 2009
1999 Fort Walton Beach O.U.T.E.R L.I.M.I.T. 2012
2023 Melbourne PiraTech 2011
2100 Port St. Lucie M Squared 2008
2278 Orlando AVENGING PLUTO 2007
2422 Davenport Bucket O' Bolts 2009
2757 Longwood B.A.D. (Built And Dangerous!) 2013 FTC
3149 Lakeland PANDAMONIUM! 2011
3332 Melbourne HustlerTech 2011
3364 Tallahassee Panhandle Pirates 2010
3518 3810 W Educational Path LHS Panthers 2011
3520 Coral Springs RoboColts 2012
3580 Cape Coral Marinerds 2012
3592 Port Orange Sharks 2011
3611 Lynn Haven Dukes Of Mosley 2013
3622 Boca Raton Robocats 2011
3732 Miami The Raging Tornadoes 2013
3782 Panama City Rams 2013
3790 Bradenton Lakewood Ranch Mustangs 2013
3803 Miami Lightning Robotics 2011
3938 Miami Radix Robotics 2013
4052 Fort Myers Wolfpack 2013
4066 Groveland MechMate 2013
4088 Port Charlotte Flash4ward 2013
4133 6406 E Chelsea St S2-Boltz 2012
4157 Fort Myers Imaginarium 2012
4179 Cantonment Tahisco Techs 2013
4184 Naples Wreck-techs 2013
4190 Port Richey Hephaestus 2012
4197 Dade City Lacoochee Cowboys 2013
4214 Riverview Robo-Flames 2012
4222 Sanford Frolicking Nerds 2012
4223 Lakeland Robo-Flight-Transformer 2013
4321 Jacksonville Vikings 2013
4333 Tampa Team MOSI 2012
4341 Mulberry Panther Robotics 2013
4706 Miami Bulls 2013

Swan217 17-04-2014 12:50
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon2020 (Post 1374962)
Yup! Thanks! I sure did miss Team 1345! They have now been added to the inactive list.

There may be a few missing, but here is the list of Florida Teams that have become inactive (72) and the last year they competed:

168 North Miami Beach Mechanical Investigation Bureau 2013
665 Orlando PHAT/Motor Monkeys 2013 FTC
1543 Kissimmee Cyclone Psychos 2012
1612 Brooksville Robo-Sharks 2013
1875 Cocoa Cat VI 2012
1999 Fort Walton Beach O.U.T.E.R L.I.M.I.T. 2012
2023 Melbourne PiraTech 2011
2757 Longwood B.A.D. (Built And Dangerous!) 2013 FTC
3149 Lakeland PANDAMONIUM! 2011
3332 Melbourne HustlerTech 2011
3518 3810 W Educational Path LHS Panthers 2011
3520 Coral Springs RoboColts 2012
3580 Cape Coral Marinerds 2012
3592 Port Orange Sharks 2011
3611 Lynn Haven Dukes Of Mosley 2013
3622 Boca Raton Robocats 2011
3732 Miami The Raging Tornadoes 2013
3782 Panama City Rams 2013
3790 Bradenton Lakewood Ranch Mustangs 2013
3803 Miami Lightning Robotics 2011
3938 Miami Radix Robotics 2013
4052 Fort Myers Wolfpack 2013
4066 Groveland MechMate 2013
4088 Port Charlotte Flash4ward 2013
4133 6406 E Chelsea St S2-Boltz 2012
4157 Fort Myers Imaginarium 2012
4179 Cantonment Tahisco Techs 2013
4184 Naples Wreck-techs 2013
4190 Port Richey Hephaestus 2012
4197 Dade City Lacoochee Cowboys 2013
4214 Riverview Robo-Flames 2012
4222 Sanford Frolicking Nerds 2012
4223 Lakeland Robo-Flight-Transformer 2013
4321 Jacksonville Vikings 2013
4333 Tampa Team MOSI 2012
4341 Mulberry Panther Robotics 2013
4706 Miami Bulls 2013
Holy Cows, We've lost 27 teams in the past 3 years! I know JC Penney pulling out & NASA downsizing has a lot to do with it, but that definitely sounds like panic time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Wallace (Post 1374540)
Don't wait too long. Yes it is hard work, but it has to be done, and soon. Is your committee talking with the other one down in Ft. Lauderdale?

The FRC has evolved since 1996, my rookie season. The vision and mission have not changed: we are still a volunteer community aspiring to "transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders." However, the means to that end has changed over the years.

The District competition that I help to plan and host now requires about 5% of the budget that the St. Louis Regional required when I was part of that planning committee. Most of the difference (>$200k) went to professional event services and to venue rental. My opinion, apparently shared by many in the FRC community, is that those costs inhibit growth.
Yes we talk with S. Florida, we even have members on both planning committees.

Like I said, there are many considerations that have to be made, and avoiding the mistakes that FiM made when setting up their system is important. Yes the costs & quantity are appealing aspects of the districts, but maintaining the integrity of what we're trying to do here, inspiration & gracious professionalism, are equally important. We are lucky enough here to have our venue at Central Florida, who have been very gracious hosts and have supported our efforts to bring more value-added to the Regional with minimal additional cost. There needs to be a careful strategy to avoid the volunteer issues that have plagued other events - this season's competition has been taxing enough without additional complexities.

MARS_James 21-04-2014 11:48
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon2020 (Post 1374962)
665 Orlando PHAT/Motor Monkeys 2013 FTC
1543 Kissimmee Cyclone Psychos 2012
1875 Cocoa Cat VI 2012
1889 Wellington Xbot 360 2009
I am not sure where some of these names came from 665 was known as MAYHEM before motor monkeys, 1543 was The Riddler Revolution for as long as I could remember, 1875 was Automatanomatonamatons (or something to that effect) then became Purple Haze, and 1889 was just Haze for there entire existence

dodar 21-04-2014 14:46
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1377221)
I am not sure where some of these names came from 665 was known as MAYHEM before motor monkeys, 1543 was The Riddler Revolution for as long as I could remember, 1875 was Automatanomatonamatons (or something to that effect) then became Purple Haze, and 1889 was just Haze for there entire existence
Also, 1875, to my knowledge, merged into 233.

Moon2020 21-04-2014 16:17
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
The info was pulled directly out of FIRST's online Database using the Florida Teams and who registered for the Florida/Peachtree/Bayou Regionals search options. Please feel free to quote it and correct it as you see fit.

MARS_James 21-04-2014 16:47
Re: Florida Rankings 2014
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon2020 (Post 1377364)
The info was pulled directly out of FIRST's online Database using the Florida Teams and who registered for the Florida/Peachtree/Bayou Regionals search options. Please feel free to quote it and correct it as you see fit.
Things you learn about teams when you decide to follow that path, at the 2005 Florida regional, 79 (KRUNCH) was known as The Navigators, 168 (MIB) was The Flashbacks, 233 (The Pink Team) was Space Coast FIRST Robotics Team, 1251 (TechTigers) was The Revolution, 1557 (12 Volt Bolt) was Lake County Alliance, and 1649 (EMS) was The Lakers. The more you know


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