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New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Hi Chief Delphi!
My team just finished its first rookie season. We're a brand new high school as well (building off a school with prek-8). This school year, we're in an intermediate high school campus and go to the main campus which has a lab where we do robotics. Next year, however, we will have a brand new campus with a wood shop, metal shop, and a dedicated space for our robotics team! Our school is super supportive of the team, and the head of the lab has asked us to do some research regarding tools for the metal shop. We've been talking to our mentors, browsing CD, cnczone.com, and the rest of the Internet and this is what we've discovered so far: Our priority for getting tools is: Metal Bandsaw/Drill Press We're curious to know the pros and cons of a horizontal vs vertical bandsaws. Also, we're wondering which brands/models of bandsaws/drill presses are in your labs, and what you recommend. CNC Mill The head of the lab has sort of given us a $40,000 budget for a CNC mill :yikes: , so we're planning on going with a Haas TM-1(P). We're wondering if you think that's the model to go with (TM-1 or TM-1P). Also, we're wondering what accessories people have gotten. We don't know if the chip auger, probe, 4th axis, or other features are necessary. Also, what tooling did people get and where did they get it from? We're looking at getting most of our tooling from glacern.com, but there may be better places we've never heard of. Lathe We're hoping to get a small lathe at first (low price) and then upgrade to a larger one probably after a few years. Not super high on our list at this time. So many questions! Any help is useful. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Arbor Press and rookie students to sweep your new shop!
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Vertical bandsaws are very versatile, while horizontal bandsaws are only good for cutting stock down to size. Horizontals are nice though because you can usually put the stock in and then walk away. I don't know about good brands, though MSC and Enco are usually good places to start. Somebody else will probably have a good recommendation too.
Definitely go manual before you even look at CNC. CNC, with tooling is definitely going to cost you more than 40k. If it was my money, I would rather look into fully outfitting a shop with manual machines first. Also, it is important to know whether you need new machines or are willing to buy used. Also, if you are going to upgrade later, you might as well buy larger now and save money. This thread is great especially for CNC advice, but there are some decent recommendations for manual tooling too. Once you figure out what you really want we will be able to give you better advice for tooling too. Once you answer some of these questions, we will be able to help you a lot better. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
The two I can hit are:
Horizontal vs. Vertical - Horizontal is more for cutting down stock to length. If you're trying to cut a 6' piece of tube stock down to 4' or something, it would be pretty unwieldy on a vertical band saw... whereas a horizontal one you just clamp the material down and drop the blade through. Similarly, if you're trying to cut a slice off of 1/8" sheet, the vertical tends to be a good friend. We have a metal cutoff saw (which acts as our horizontal band saw) and a vertical band saw to handle both jobs. If you have the budget and space for it though, I'd recommend the horizontal band saw over a metal chop saw for potential safety reasons if the metal chop saw is used improperly. Mini-Lathes - Most/many things I'd like to work can be done on a mini-lathe. We couldn't work one into the budget this year, but I intend to purchase a Sherline this year. You get a large amount of functionality for ~$1K. Welcome to CD as well! Congrats on the great start to a new team. It sounds like you're being given some of the basics for success (space/tools/support). We look forward to seeing you guys put them to use. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Given those two options, go with the TM1-P if you can afford it. Tool changer is really nice. Don't forget to factor in tooling costs though!
A decent lathe should probably be your first tool purchased. You'll end up making countless shafts, spacers, and other round things on it. Probably more important than a mill. I'll let more experienced people go into more detail. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Grem11 welcome to Chief Delphi
There are a couple of things your team/school needs to decide before equipment is purchased. How much floor space is available? What kind of power is does the room have? What kind of robot construction does the team want to build? (Sheet metal, welded, carbon fiber, ect.) A CNC mill is a very fine tool but remember it still only cuts one part at a time. With 40k to work with you should be able to get 4 manual machines and tool them up. That way multiple parts are being worked on at the same time. Mr Mike |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
Take a look at a Scottman Cold Saw and a Bridgeport Knee mill with a DRO and a Miller SyncroWave TIG welder. With all the awesome COTS parts available that's all we need to build a robot drive train and manipulator.
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
School budgets being what they are (often tight and often controversial), it's important to get good value for money. Can you help us understand what's good value from your team's perspective, and from your school administration's perspective?
For example, what's the educational objective of the team: what does the school expect your robotics program to deliver from a skills/knowledge point of view? How well does that match the educational objectives of the school (like academics, vocations, sports, etc.)? Is the team going to be doing FRC only, or is this a space for robotics of other sorts that might vary from time to time? Who else in the school will be using the wood and metal shops, and what do they need? What kinds of parts do you want to learn how to make in-house, and which parts will you want to learn how to outsource? Don't waste your money on a machine if a sponsor can provide the service (at adequate levels of cost, reliability, timeliness, educational value, etc.). For example, if you can get CNC-milled parts elsewhere, then do you really need that very nice mill?1 Maybe you can make do with a small, cheap manual machine for odd jobs—in which case a used Bridgeport clone is a good idea. On the other hand, machining by hand is not a skill in high demand these days. It's entirely feasible to skip over the 1930s-era Bridgeports, straight to a modern CNC vertical mill, if the ability to run one of those is more valuable to your team. And if your team wants to focus on composites or sheet metal parts, you may want to invest elsewhere—autoclaves and brake presses aren't found in a lot of school machine shops, but they definitely have their uses. That said, if you're going to be like the majority of FRC teams, and will be working a lot with aluminum extrusions, skip the horizontal bandsaw (not accurate enough) and the conventional chop/mitre saw (not worth it from a safety/reliability perspective) and get a cold saw to virtually eliminate finish machining on cut ends. If you're going to weld aluminum, don't waste money on a name-brand welder. Get a good imported TIG designed for about 200 A arc current, and spend money on the accessories. You're not going to achieve high duty cycles that require a particularly robust machine, and with the price differential you can have a more capable device in the first place. A lathe is definitely nice to have for shafts and other rotating machinery. Assess your needs realistically: if you don't plan to turn things like wheels and large pulleys (you can buy those), you might be better off with a smaller, higher quality machine that can make custom shafts. Maybe with CNC capability. 1 Talk to team 610 about the Haas TM-1P. They have one. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
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SHOP USED!!!! SHOP AROUND!!!! As mentioned, one CNC could end up as a big bottleneck, but with a used CNC mill, a CNC router and a manual or 2 you can squeeze this all in with tooling for 40k and crank out A LOT OF PARTS QUICKLY! Speed is king here, you get to use the router to crank out plywood prototypes in a day or two easy, fab sheet parts, drill square tube, and machine just about anything shy of billet aluminum. Then you have your CNC mill handle the complex, intricate, and high precision parts. Then you have the Manual mill(s) to handle the easy stuff and doubles as a drill press. In regards to cutting up stock, I have a few opinions. One, I have a LOT of good things to say about using a chop saw(Miter type) with a special aluminum cutting blade. They make short work of stock and cut clean, get a good chop saw with a slower speed if you can find it. Downside is you must either be VERY careful with hex/round stock, or clamp it so it can't roll. Two, Did you know that a table saw cuts aluminum? Even with a stock carbide wood blade, just go slowly. I personally have cut INCH THICK plate this way, it takes about twice as long to cut but have had no problems cutting aluminum this way. ($500 Table Saw > $5000 Band Saw in versatility) Three, If you need a starter band saw, I suggest getting one of the hand portable ones with a table stand. Its a power hack saw and a bench top vertical band saw. Using the above to cut all your stock(unless you use a lot of steel) should cover almost anything, and when you can cut out complex sheet metal parts on the router you have a lot of design flexibility. On the subject of lathes, you can get a LOT of lathe for 2-5k. My work just purchased a Hardinge 8 tool turret lathe, it is big, it is solid, it can crank parts like a CNC! Paid $1600 with tooling, less than a dollar a pound. Craigslist and a swarm of post sifting students will be your friend. In summary Chop saw with a non-ferrous cutting blade Table saw with same Porta band saw Bridgeport or 2 CNC mill (used) don't need a probe, or 4th axis(just use fixtures and being the clever monkey) get at least 10 tool changer, flood cooling and chip auger. CNC router 4'x4' bed should be plenty Lathe get a full to mid size one used Buy endmills in bulk and get cheap bright finish ones first. /EndDataStream Feel free to email me with any questions devin@greenbotics.com |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
There is a huge Sticky thread regarding this specific topic here:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=115165 |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
What are your space constraints? You could get a Tormach PCNC 1100 with ATC, a few manual benchtop machines (I personally own the PM-30MV-L - great machine after teardown, clean, and re-lube), and a Bridgeport-type knee mill - all with tooling - for your single machine budget of 40k.
Keep in mind that you may need to get a service contract factored into your cost. Aside from that, if the school has the budget for the Haas and has accounted for the tooling and training required to use it, then I don't see the problem :) Also, you may want to pick up one of the Polygon Solutions rotary hex broaches and tool holder. Results here. For the bandsaws, get both horizontal and vertical. Units with coolant are nice to have. For the lathe, get a bigger one. The cost of a larger lathe is miniscule compared to the tooling. Something like this or this should be good for most all FRC needs. Our team wishes we had this kind of problem with our school :( |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
When you get a lathe get one with a emergency foot stop. Besides the safety factor it saved our shop. Another school had an accident with an old lathe and we had to show our school district that the foot stop would have prevented the injury if used.
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
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To your other point though, a "table saw" like device is extremely useful for cutting down large flat thin stock (plywood, plastic, sheet aluminum) and a gantry CNC mill is an amazing tool for that. Our team's sheet needs were met with me and my home table saw, but next year we're building a CNC gantry mill (Kronos) for ~$6000-7000 that has a 4'x8' bed. If you have this, a table saw isn't required. It may be quicker for some jobs than jogging the CNC, but at least you can do everything on the CNC. Finally, I too wish we could just "get used tools". Most school districts have strict policies about procurement though, so you don't have the option to grab things off Craigslist. If you had a sponsor committed to donate X dollars, they could purchase it for you and make an in kind donation, but it does get a little more complicated. +1 on the Cold Saw > chop saw as well. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
You can debate this all you want, and honestly you should make the final decision.
In general, you can get all the heavy duty machinery you want, but I generally enjoy the lighter weight work spaces that facilitate good rapid prototyping capabilities A few things I would consult:
Also, do not be afraid to buy used if you are willing to make the investment in TLC. Lots of teams here use 1940s era Bridgeport End Mills. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
If you can get the HAAS, the TM1 is an awesome machine. I love ours to pieces.
Make sure to get the ATC--it really isn't worth CNC machining without one. Besides that, the probe can really make your life a lot easier (although it will cost you). I wish we had one, zeroing everything by hand is a real drag. I'd skip the fourth axis, you really don't need it all that much for FRC. Besides that, make sure to get about 15 tool holders (ER-71, extended tool holders, holders designed for tools with Weldon flats, a Jacobs chuck, etc) so you can leave all your tooling set up and the important stuff in your ATC. Also, invest in a good CAM program. We use BobCAD--don't use it, it's bad. HSMworks is free, and pretty good, so that might be a good place to start. MasterCAM is really the industry standard CAM package, but it's quite expensive. If you can, get that, but I doubt your budget will cover it. Last tip, whatever machine you get, make sure to use it, and really get to know the ins and outs of it. I know teams that build championship winning robots with a dinky little Tormach P1100, and I know teams that go 5-7 even though they have 4 HAASes. An expert user really makes the difference. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
I would recommend (in order of importance):
2 vertical bandsaws 2 drill presses 1 horizontal bandsaw 1 metal break (preferably a finger break if you can find one) 1 sheer 1 Lathe 1 mill I can't stress enough how drastically getting the break and sheer changed how our team worked and what we could do. It really was rather amazing. For the vert. bandsaw and the drill press... I would get one full sized floor model, and one desktop model. This gives you flexibility to bring them to competition if you feel the need (I know some teams do). Having two of each really helps avoid congestion as multiple students wait for a machine to be free. I prioritize the lathe over the mill, just because working with round stock is so much harder without a lathe, and while a mill increases what you can do, I don't think it does it quite as much as a lathe does. As for a CNC machine... if you can get one, great! Personally though, I see that as being at the bottom of the list. Find a machine shop willing to sponsor you and run some parts every year, and you can use their CNC machine. Instead, I would spend some of that money on a desktop 3D printer, Makerbot or equivalent (no need to go with an uber-expensive one like a Stratasys). We got one before this build season, and it's rather amazing how much it simplified some of what we do! Also keep in mind that the final cost is not just in the machines... there's a lot of tooling that goes along with each machine! By at least two of each wearable item (extra saw blades, drill bits, cutting heads, etc) so you aren't stuck waiting for an order if one wears out or breaks. Consider investing in an initial purchase of significant stock - something you'll then replenish each year as needed. For example, stock up on different sizes of bolts, and keep it consistent (for example, do you want to use 10-32's or 10-24's? Pick one thread count and stick with it! You'll also want bigger and smaller bolts - 1/4-20's, 8's, 6's, and 4's typically). By doing so, you can limit what you purchase in drill bits (tap and clearance for each bolt size you get) and taps - this means you can buy several of each size bit you actually need, instead of a set of bits, 90% of which wouldn't be a good size for your bolts. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
WHATEVER YOU DO: Get good CAM software, like MasterCAM, and get GWizard to do your feeds/speeds calculations. GWizard is pure freakin' magic, I cut down a part program on my router from 16 minutes to less than 5 minutes after using GWizard.
This year we (95) have made great use of two machines in conjunction: a CNC plasma table and a CNC knee mill (a ProtoTrak). The CNC plasma cutter can dice up anything from 1/32in sheet to 1/4in plate (and more) with minimal effort and is a very safe machine to use in the grand scheme of things. We cut out virtually all of the major components on our robot this year with our plasma cutter which resulted in an extraordinarily fast fabrication time. We use the Prototrak's CNC functions to add fine features into blanks cut out with the plasma cutter. We also use it as a manual mill if we're only making a few parts. It ain't no HAAS, but it works just fine for everything we want it to. We've also started using a Prototrak CNC lathe, manual mode only for now. It is quite nice, easy to use, and we've had great results so far. Before next season we hope to learn how to use it's CNC functions. I (personally) have started to become proficient with my CNC router in almost anything from wood to aluminum. A CNC router has advantages like low cost, fantastically large work envelop, and pretty good accuracy (better than a plasma cutter, worse than a CNC mill). I could easily see a team using a CNC router to make virtually all of their robot parts. These are what I have experience with and thus are what I'm suggesting for your consideration. Keep in mind that you're not making a full-time fab shop, you likely don't need every machine to be capable of running continuously for the next 10 years. I would tend to give a little more weight to 'total shop capabilities' over 'ultimate machine durability'. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
I also have good things to say about HSMXpress, it is a CAM software plugin for SolidWorks and is FREE! It is not full 3D, its 2.5D but being able to make your fixture plate or vise, model it in SolidWorks and then drag in the part to machine in an assembly and generate the toolpaths is nice.
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Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
As others have said, 40k will get you a lot farther in manual machines than CNC.
A lot of the FRC parts that need CNC work tend to be sheet material. To that end, a CNC router can be a very good choice. Compared to a mill they're very cheap, and they have large work envelopes for doing panels, belly pans, etc. They're more accurate than plasma, and cheaper than waterjet or laser. They're also more versatile than those machines, as they can do "2.5D" work like pocketing, counterboring, champfering, engraving, etc. Also, you can build one yourself, they're not exceptionally complicated for FRC-trained people, as long as you put in the research time (CNCzone.com is your friend) I'm currently designing a (pretty hardcore) router for BadgerBOTS, I'd be happy to share my CAD files, design notes, expertise, etc. with anyone interested (Just keep in mind that we're fairly early in the project). And my STUDENTS (Hi Max and Newton) should hopefully be thinking about rounding up some sponsors ;) For your 40k budget, you could easily get a CNC router and two or three decked out knee mills (power feed DRO, non-R8 spindle, pneumatic drawbar, VFD spindle, Kurt vise, etc) and plenty of tooling. For quick parts, I'm also a big fan of Accurite's Millpwr conversational mill control. It can do all kinds of hole patterns, simple pockets, periphery milling, and even complex pockets and shapes. The really nice thing is that programs can be made up in seconds on the machine. And, if you have one with no Z-axis control, it's almost impossible to crash, because the operator has control of the Z, and it's pretty hard to smack the tool into things when it's at the top of it's travel. The cheapest I've found of them is around $25k As others have also said, comparing horizonal bandsaws to verticals is pretty much apples and oranges; they're made for different tasks. I'd take a vertical though, because it can be used for many different tasks. The horizonal type is really only good for cutting stock, and if you really need to, that can be done on a vertical (Or just get a freshman and a hacksaw :D ) Cutting aluminum on a tablesaw sounds like a completely terrible idea to me. I don't use a tablesaw unless I really have to, and I'm always wary of high schoolers using them, because there's a lot of things that can go wrong. And when they go wrong, they tend to go very, very wrong. IF you're going to cut aluminum on a tablesaw, make sure you have a mentor supervising who really, really knows what they're doing, and knows what to do if something bad happens. |
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Not to be a TOTAL nit :o I agree with everything else. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
For those of you with a TM1-P, I'm wondering how the coolant is working out for you? Don't they hold only like 5 gallons?
I went with the Mini Mill because that's what we could fit at the time, and I like the 24 gallon capacity, and high flow pump (option). For coolant, I'd recommend Trim 585XT and use filtered water. For tooling, I use Maritool for holders and pull studs and Lakeshore Carbide for endmills. Don't forget you need a vise, preferably two. This can run you over $1000 for the pair. Let me know if you need help with pricing or anything on the HAAS or tooling or or picking anything out. I've done this a couple times now. |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
If you are considering cnc stuff then you are already beyond this advise. But doing robots on a mid size budget.
Band saw: We have a couple of smaller Jet band horizontal saws (1/2x64" blade). They have a table that converts it to a vertical band saw. Horizontal mode is great for cutting stock. The vertical mode is a compromise, but a lot less expensive than a good vertical metal saw. Band saws are considerable safer than the other options for cutting metal. Not to say the other options are dangerous with the right training & safe guards. Hand held powered band saw: You can get (or make) a stand. A good budget option. Lathes: I would stay away from the minis, 7xXXs, They will do good work as long as you stay within their capabilities, but are fragile. Next size up aren't really that more expensive Drill presses: No shop should be without them. Mills: We have a mid size Enco model with digital readouts (DRO). A lot more useful than I thought it would be. Having something with a DRO it great for laying out holes. Makes making simple custom gear boxes a snap. |
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But 3D surfacing is not commonly used in FRC robot parts, at least as far as I'm aware. :D |
Re: New Workshop...Tool Advice Needed
From what our old machining mentor says, it's not worth it to get a mill or lathe unless it weighs well over 1,000lbs and runs on 220v.
Personally I think that if you get a CNC, it should be a beefy router. That way you can cut stuff like 2x1 for WCD, gearbox plates, and bellypans. They also tend to be cheaper than regular CNCs. Any manual mill that you get should have a DRO. They are just fantastic for manual stuff. |
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