New Championship Layout 2015
 

FIRST just announced that the 2015 FIRST Championship in St. Louis will take place in 3 venues. FLL & FTC will be in different venues while FRC will remain in the Edward Jones Dome and Convention Center.

I think it's a big change that could be a sign that the FRC Championship will be bigger next year. 6 fields? 600 teams?

I'm interested in what people think about this change.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Be prepared for 8 divisions next year. This move by FIRST is massive.

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Playing field will be double the size. Gotta have room for the splashes of the water.


/sarcasm



But in all seriouness this is crazy. Good crazy. Interesting how it seems like this means the field of teams will be bigger when it seems like FIRST has been trying to downsize Champs...

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

I hope that having dedicated venues means that FLL and FTC will have their championships grow as well. Both, FLL especially, have had a criminally low number of championship teams given the size of the programs.

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I believe it's FLL in the Renaissance Grand, with JrFLL and FTC at Union Station. The latter venue seems a bit far, doesn't it?

If they want to use the entire America's Center for FRC, I think there's one big implication: 8 fields (either 2 per division or 8 divisions). Which is an awesome idea. We get to expand AND increase matches/team.

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It will be interesting to see how this plays out. St Louis does not seem to have the infrastructure to support another 200 teams.

It also seems questionable whether there are another 200 teams that deserve to be at Champs.

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I love the thought of 2 fields for each division. That would be awesome. I hope you're right!

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You really want to have to scout 2 different fields at one competition?

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As long as the fields aren't too far apart, it might not be too bad. A pain, yes, but I'm all about more matches.

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If I were FIRST, I'd go to 8 divisions of 60 teams. 80 more teams means Championship won't overflow (which it was probably going to). Fewer teams per division means there'll be easily 12+ matches/team.

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Thats exactly what I was thinking.

And Justin, I dont think the EJD can handle 8 full FRC fields. Can it?

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If I'm not mistaken, this is what the footprint layout will look like. The yellow line is about 1 mile, as-the-crow-flies from the entrance to the Dome to Union Station.

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It can house ~10 FRC size fields around the perimeter the floor (assuming 40x80 allotments). The problem is noise pollution from adjacent fields, as they're pretty close together.

Personally, I think 4x doublefield divisions are more likely than 8x singlefield.

Using doublefield divisions reduces the noise pollution issue (since 2 fields share a common audio feed), doesn't add a round to Einstein (which is already pinched for time), doesn't need as many volunteers as 8 divisions (but DOES need *some* more than 4x singlefield).

Additionally, doublefield divisions have much higher match throughput. 8x singlefield gives more matches/team by reducing the number of teams playing in a division. 4x doublefield improves utilization.


Also: I don't understand why people say scouting a doublefield division is too difficult. The fields are adjacent to one another, you can sit centrally and watch both. In 2004 and 2006 the Canadian/Toronto regional did exactly this, and it worked just fine. They played with 12 and 16 Elims alliances too.

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Eh, I don't know about 10 fields...I don't even know about 8. Chief Dephi users have argued about this in the past:


(Image credit: Patrick Flynn)

Are you expecting the FTAs, Refs, Field Reset, Game Announcers, Emcees, and Queuing Volunteers to constantly run between the two fields?

If a single field has one division of 120 teams with 10 matches each, and a double field has two divisions of 60 teams each with 10 matches each, wouldn't it still result in the same amount of matches played per team? A doublefield may decrease the wasted time between matches though, which could increase the total number of matches player per team.

The 2006 Greater Toronto Regional only had 72 teams total, while having a doublefield division at Champs could be almost double that. Seating is already cramped as it is with 100 teams per division. I don't see having two fields with 150 teams total cramped together working out. Only a small majority would be able to actually sit centrally to both fields, most spectators will probably be towards the end of one of the two fields.

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Depends entirely on how much space you allot per field. Double field divisions allow you to put them a bit closer together.

I calculated several years ago (2011 IIRC) that you can fit 10 FRC fields (I think I calculated on 40'x70' plots), on an NFL Football field. Both Georgia Dome and EJD have floors considerably larger than an NFL field (EJD is bigger).

IIRC, when it was done in Toronto (in 2004, 2006, and to a lesser extent 2011), you needed less than two regionals worth of nearly every volunteer type.

Instead of doubling the number, you increase it by some (say, 30-50%), and give the people (who will be working harder due to the non-stop nature of a double field event) more breaks more often.

Remember: We're getting a new control system (and likely upgraded/new FMS to go with it). There is no reason that it couldn't be designed to support 2 sets of field hardware from a single scorpion-case-replacement.

That's exactly what I was getting at. The time that field reset is doing their job is wasted for teams. Double field divisions significantly reduce that. 2x Single Field Divisions to replace one singlefield division will give twice the matches in the same time, sure. But it does so at the cost of doubling ALL of the field equipment PLUS all of the volunteers.

Doublefield divisions don't need to double SOME of the field equipment (mostly the computers) and don't need to double the volunteers, just increase it some. They don't generate quite 2x the throughput though. They get maybe ~85-90% of the way.

I worked out last year, that each of our four divisions could go up to 140 teams/division, 12 matches per team by doublefielding the divisions, without extending the schedule at all. Additionally, doublefield divisions allow you to run a 16-alliance elimination bracket in approximately the same time frame, which gets more teams into CMP elims.

While I agree seating is a bit of a challenge, you're comparing seating 140-150 teams to watch two fields, regardless of whether its 2 divisions or 1. Most spectators are not scouts, and thus aren't as picky about vantage point.

Toronto used to be played in an OHL Hockey Arena (Hershey Centre) with 5,500 seats. From what I recall, there were plenty of open seats still. EJD seats 66,000. (AFAIK, we stick mostly to the 1xx series sections, which represent maybe 40% of EJD's total, still ~6x bigger than Hershey Centre for an event a little over 4x the size).

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I'm more curious about how the extra teams will be chosen. More than six qualifying awards? Just more wildcards? Quantity of regionals increasing that much?

Very much looking forward to it. I'm sure we'll hear more once plans are solidified. I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST was still deciding what the setup will be. I'll have to wait until we get more detailed plans, but on paper this looks like a seriously good thing for the program.

I'm also curious about how much FLL/FTC visiting will be eliminated by this change. One of the cool things about Champs has been being able to visit teams from the other programs. I'm guessing separate venues will severely reduce that.

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The 2014 regionals/districts combined were already sending >400 teams.

Several new regionals are coming online each year.

As more district regions come online, you can dial up or down the amount of teams sent to CMP based on team density and available space at CMP easily. Plus in the early years of increased capacity, you simply go to the waitlist again.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

There's a convenient train system that takes a total of 2 blocks walking - a station at EJD and (of course) Union Station.

2 fields per division? Really? Why not just 8 divisions? :confused:

As for 8 (or 9) fields on the floor, no problem. Plenty of room.
Or maybe smaller fields...:ahh:

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Wouldn't it be nice to have 8 alliances on Einstein? It would be more of a traditional elimination, with a standard schedule (no need for a mandatory 6 minute timeout between matches).

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I'm gonna be that guy to interject for a moment and say, just because they're moving the other programs to other venues, doesn't mean FRC is expanding.

A. In terms of in the Dome, we're only really losing FTC, so space doesn't become that available. Einstein will still have to be there. Yes we could physically fit in more, but that doesn't necessarily mean we want too. Noise pollution, and just the feeling of being butted up against another field would detract from the experience.

B. In terms of pits, yes this opens up space for a lot more teams. But also this allows FIRST to add a lot more features utilizing that space, including displays, a practice field for each division, space to make an epic Finale, and other things like that.

I think this move is more about letting the other programs grow their championships/Festivals, and less about FRC getting to grow. I could be wrong, but that's my $0.02.

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Also, space for more involved ceremonies and other such things. FIRST got a lot of backlash for putting a concert stage in the dome in 2011 at the expense of 2 FRC fields, and now does not have to make such compromises.

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How did this work then? Even if teams qualiied, were they rejected? Obviously we have 400 teams only

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Enough teams ate multiple spots.

Frank said at his live Frank Answers Fridays this morning that they're looking at about 600 FRC teams at Championship. Extra divisions and other logistics are still being worked out.

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^^ This. Does anyone know how many FTC teams competed this year? I thought it was something like 2000 but I can't find a number anywhere. Sounds like there are 128 teams at their championship, I'd be interested to know how that compares to the total number. And I know FLL has a minuscule number of teams that get to go. I think it's time for these programs to unchain themselves from FRC and start recognizing more deserving FIRST teams each year.

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I don't know the total number of teams in the world but I would bet at a minimum there are 3000 +. To put in perspective there are currently 108 FTC teams in the state of Illinois.

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Hopefully they will figure out a way so that any FLL team in the world has the opportunity to qualify for the World Festival. As it stands now, they can't support enough teams to allow each championship event can send one team to the WF. Not even ONE TEAM per event. If you are in the wrong event this year, you can't go.

If they can't expand FLL to allow every team the opportunity to qualify, then what benefit is separating the venues? FLL doesn't get to be inspired by seeing FRC and FTC.

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The reason FIRST gets to fly so many nations' flags over Einstein is that FLL is more globally diverse than FIRST's other programs. People call the World Festival a "championship" already, even though it is not. Losing the inspiration for the FLL "farm teams" would be a poor strategic move. Those of us in the FLL program really appreciate the support of local FRC teams at our tournaments. FIRST has worked diligently to craft the migration ladder. I would hate to see it suffer by a separation like this.

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Here's a question: Does the FLL World Festival take the entire 4 days of the FIRST Championship? Or could it be compressed to 3 1/2 or even 3 days. Then, there could be some sort of break and teams could be encouraged to go check out the FRC matches in the dome, since the new FLL venue seems to be pretty close. Point is, I don't think FIRST wants to lose the inspiration you refer to, and I don't think they rushed into this decision without thinking of that.

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The fact this is going into effect for 2015 means that there's a good chance that when they were looking to sign the 2015-2017 contract, a city that could serve with multiple venues was something they were looking for. I mean we as the FIRST community have been talking about those events having their own venues for years, so I'm sure the same serious consideration has been happening at HQ.

I overall applaud the choice. I think the "Olympic Style" of having multiple venues in the same city on the same weekend is a smart choice. It allows each program to grow and shine on it's own, while still allowing the cross-inspiration of having them in close proximity.

Plus, if HQ is smart, they'll try to build in a couple FLL events at EJD/AC so they kids will get to see the big robots. ;)

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Apparently this is where this reply should have gone, I'll just copy/paste:

Well I can't say I'm super happy with this idea.

I feel like FTC always seems to take a backseat because everyone just sees it as "FRC lite". Moving it to a whole other building, and out of the dome, will really take something away from the experience I think. And as much as I love FTC, I feel it already leaves something to be desired in the "inspiration" category.

It kind of feels like the other programs have been "downgraded".

Though maybe that's a little hasty of me.

If the new venue makes space for more FTC divisions and teams, that's good. But I still feel like FTC doesn't get quite the recognition it deserves.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

I certainly feel the same way about how FTC is undervalued/not recognized like FRC is.

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I was on FTC in the fall too (7641 M-SET Betta Fish) and I do believe that the FTC teams would appreciate the increase in size at championships. Only a very, very small fraction of teams get to compete.

Props to FIRST for organizing an event of that size next year.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

People have noticed issues with the venue getting cramped. FRC brings the eye candy and gets a higher percentage of slots. FTC and FLL invited to CMP/teams registered is so painfully, criminally low. You give fewer opportunities for teams to attend an event like worlds and they can't be postiviely affected by the event. I'm exited to try something new.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

We had thought it would be awesome to see 8 divisions of 75 teams. 75 teams x 12 matches per team = 900 team/matches divided by 6 teams per match = an even 150 matches per field. No more unwieldy extra matches for some teams or a couple teams not getting the same as most other teams.

150 matches per field can be done over Thursday and Friday.
The winning alliances from all 8 fields move on Saturday for an Elite Eight type setup.

Field names?
1. Archimedes
2. Curie
3. Newton
4. Galileo
5. proposed - Pythagoras
6. proposed - Hubble
7. proposed - Euclid
8. proposed - Kepler

Any other suggestions?

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

(Note: at this time I have not taken the time to read this entire thread... I shall do that later. Her are my thoughts anyway.)

My first thought is that I don't particularly like the idea of splitting up the programs. Being in the same venue makes it very easy to go over to the other programs and check them out. In different venues, I expect to see a lot less mingling of programs. I don't like that thought.

However, I cannot agree more with the thoughts about quantity of teams in the non-FRC programs. Being in other venues will allow those programs to grow their Championship presence.

I'm not sure what will happen with FRC in regards to size. Surely there appears to be reason for more teams to go, but will it be six divisions? Eight? Will there be fewer teams in each division? I am uncertain.

Whatever the outcome, this is exciting.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

In terms of "mingling," what if all three events had their final take place on Einstien? FLL already does, they set up FLL fields on a bare FRC field Thursday and friday. Do qualifications/judging at the hotel, then come to the Dome Friday afternoon for the finals. FTC, same thing, quickly set up two fields on Einstien Friday night, bring all FTC teams into the dome Saturday morning, hold the eliminations and award ceremony. Spectators from FLL and FTC would come to the dome for the finals, and have plenty of time to do all the "mingling" they can, and hopefully stick around for the FRC elimination tournament. Meanwhile, the best teams from FLL and FTC would be brought onto the world's biggest robot stage.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Yep. I think they're going 8.

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Booking hotels now for 2015</sarcasm>

But really, where are 600 teams supposed to stay? We're in Collinsville, IL right now, a good 20 minutes from the venue, and the manager told me hotels out here are completely booked with robotics teams. They don't have anywhere to put their business travelers.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

This actually worries me most of all, and it's not just the 200 more FRC teams. Everyone in this thread seems to agree that the FLL and FTC championships are going to see some significant growth.

With 200 FRC + 200-300 (?) more FLL/FTC teams...?

- Sunny G.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Ouch! I'm sure there are many teams out there that feel they deserve to be here this year and didn't make the cut for whatever reason. We plan to attend every year, whether we compete or not. This year we had a good robot and made it to the elim rounds at two regionals and didn't get to compete in St. Louis. We came down with 28 students and four mentors anyway to volunteer and support teams. In my humble opinion, this experience is rewarding on so many levels both on and off the field. Why would we want to limit the number of teams and, far more important, students who are impacted so positively by this event?

It seems we sometime lose focus of the "I" in FIRST. I am all about inspiring my students and helping them to find their passions. You don't accomplish that by limiting their opportunities. I'm excited to hear that FIRST is expanding the number of teams and students impacted by the championship!

Way to go FIRST!!

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That *is* an interesting logistical problem. CMP is now growing to the point where not only is there only a handful of venues capable of hosting, but only a handful of cities that can even support the influx of visitors that CMP brings.

Long-term? I still think a move back to Orlando (and the OCCC) is the only real option. Orlando would certainly have the hotel density to support us.

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The airport is also worth some concern. Flights were much more expensive and harder to come by this year. Large increase in the amount of people coming in to town? Yikes! Lambert is not very big.

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Everybody's talking about a lot more divisions (eight even!), but I don't see it.

I mean, moving the other programs out only frees up space for one more field (where the FTC fields are). So where are the other three new divisions going to go?

The new division, plus more practice fields will probably fill up the newly freed pit space.

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one option could be two fields per division, side by side. some volunteers move back and forth between the fields, others are set to one of them - that way you don't need 2x the volunteers - maybe 1.5x. More matches, faster cycle times, faster pace for the crowd. almost no down time.

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The next time FIRST moves Championships to a new city they are going to move it to a bigger city. St. Louis just cannot accommodate more teams....

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Also a hub city would be nice.

I get why St. Louis is attractive from the HQ perspective, the venue was almost built for FIRST Champs, the city works well with us, and it appears to be in the middle of the county.

BUT

The city isn't really capable of handling the influx of people, in terms of hotel and infrastructure. Also Lambert isn't a hub city, so getting flights into the city, and cheaply for that matter, is hard for almost everyone.

St. Louis has been great, but I hope for 2018 they look for a city that is a little more capable of handling us in areas outside of just the venue.

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I dont know why they ever left Atlanta. Either go back to Atlanta or go way back to Orlando.

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Having three separate venues compared to even two sounds crazy, which just tells you how quickly the expansion of FIRST is going. Maybe the growth rate thing on the Top Ten this year may not be so crazy if they're doing that next year. They'd probably move to a more legible city to accommodate for how many teams go to Nationals for how many there are in just a matter of years.

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A lot of people are talking about more FRC teams being able to go, but I think the addition of new FRC teams will be pretty minimal. If more divisions are added, it will be to increase the amount of matches teams will play, and adding more teams is not how you do that. While thee might be a few more positions available, I doubt it will be significant. That would defeat what I think would be the main purpose of this move.

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I'd love for it to come back to Atlanta, but with the new dome moving even farther from the GWCC than the current one is, I don't think FIRST will move back here. Unless teams like a 1 mile walk to and from the dome floor to the pits.

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Come on, we all know we need a field named tesla!

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Tesla, Hubble, Keplar, Maxwell

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I'd vote for Feynman.

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^ too perfect..
TOO PERFECT!

we must all spam frank until he uses his powers to make this real ;)


edit: also I think orlando might be a great place for 2018, if not seattle.

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Don't rule it out. It's only about 2/10ths of a mile from the door of building B to the doors of the new stadium. As long as there is a path from the convention center into the stadium for the robots, it would be a strong venue that could handle an expanded competition.

If you need visual reference, this was just released to show the idea for a convention center hotel. New stadium is in the bottom corner: http://media.bizj.us/view/img/252577...nal-sm*600.jpg

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Where in Seattle would they put 4+ fields? I know of no building with enough room to do all of this xD

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

+1.

Feynman would be an awesome name for a field.

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Perhaps some day the NFL will play the Superbowl in the Kamen/FIRST Dome, which will be big enough to handle 8 FRC fields, with spacious pits for 600 teams, and comfortable grandstands that are just a few short steps away.

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I do believe the Washington State Convention Center is big enough.. though I may be mistaken!

Also: Epicot is not the only center large enough in FL to hold the championships ;)
Wouldn't mind one in san diego either... Any place that can keep my floridian blood warm is good :P

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

I don't think it would ever happen, but I wonder if the Twin Cities could be a site in the future.

Amenities:
-'Fargo' and 'Grumpy Old Men' were filmed here ;)
-FRC at the new Vikings Stadium (larger than the former Metrodome)
-FTC/FLL could be at the Minneapolis Convention Center
-Former HUB of Northwest Airlines/Delta
- So it has the infrastructure
- There is a regional Airport in St Cloud that does a lot of flights to Chicago and the SW USA
-Mall of America could host many events
-Target Field could host a Twins night
-New Soccer Venue (if MN United and Twins can get a stadium built)
-2nd only to New York City in live theater per capita
-Is the third-largest theater market in the U.S.
-Has an expansive enclosed skyway that connects MPLS.
-THe area has an abundance of hotels and entertainment venues
-Is relatively safe *as long as you stay away from North MPLS
-has ever-increasing lines of Light Rail
(connecting from DTWN MPLS to MOA to StPaul to near StCloud).
-Has many Fortune 500 Corporations (Best Buy, PTC, Target, 3M, Medtronic, etc) to aid in the sponsorship.

Also, it already hosts the largest FRC event outside of the FRC Championships (MN North Star and 10,000 Lakes) - so it has the background of what to expect.

Any thoughts?

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It might take some doing. There isn't a one single giant open hall in the Convention Center like the one in St Louis, but if things were able to be spread out a little, it might work. The Convention Center is at the north end of the bus tunnel, one stop away from Westlake Center, which is the terminus of both the Light Rail to/from the airport and the monorail to/from Seattle Center. It isn't too far from Pike Place Market, and there are hotels nearby. Pretty much everything is within decent walking distance, as long as you don't mind hills.

As another option, the Tacoma Dome is about thirty miles south, and it is a giant domed field. It also has hotels nearby, though the transportation to/from the airport is a bit more difficult. (Our public transportation isn't that bad, as long as you're only trying to get in and out of Seattle. Elsewhere, it gets a bit spotty.)

More general pros: SeaTac airport is a decent sized hub, and there's no danger of either tornados or hurricanes (though April might be the wrong time of year for hurricanes anyway).

Cons: We're kind of all alone in our little corner of the country, and teams from elsewhere might have some trouble getting here as easily as they would to a more central (read: midwest) location.

Anyway, just the $0.02 of a local.

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Midwest is usually best when it comes travelling for everyone. I think FIRST would like to keep it that way in order to make robot transport easiest.

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As an FLL team at the championships for the first time this year, we had mixed emotions when we heard this.

One one hand, it would be nice to have a shot at qualifying again next year because of the expanded field. On the other hand, one of the great things about the event was that all the programs were in the same location. We didn't have much down time to visit the FRC/FTC pits as it was this year (we really wanted to spend time there), and when the venue is at a different location next year, I don't see how that can happen at all. I have kids who are now FIRSTers for life because they can see their path forward in the progression of programs.

Another thought: FLL is hard to qualify for the World Festival (less than 0.5% of teams in the world get an invite, as opposed to about 10% - I think - of FRC teams). So, most FLL kids will never get the opportunity to attend anyway. Unless they are directly mentored by an FRC team, it doesn't seem likely that they will make the connection.

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It has been suggested :) I would be surprised if it happened as early as 2018, but give it another decade of infrastructure, growth, and FIRST development, but at that point we're so far into the future it's relatively impossible to predict.

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I was all giddy with excitement about having 6 to 8 fields in the dome next year and then eliminations happened and Archimedes took up space on the backside of my field blocking my exit and Galileo was backing all the way up towards my front.
Now I'm concerned where are we supposed to put all these teams during elims.

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I am not sure if I follow you here. The infrastructure (planes, trains,automobiles and walking) is better than what St Louis has or has proposed.

The growth is a question when it comes to FRC involvement - but considering the vast structure of MnSCU or UofM - the bodies are there if FRC MN is ready to ask. Between students from MSU-Mankato, SCSU, UM-TC, and UMD, there are more than enough bodies to help coordinate if FRC MN wanted to push this.

As for future - yes, 2018 seems a little too soon, but not out of the realm of possibility.

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well it might be big enough for all the fields, but it's not exactly a good spectator arena (which was what i meant, there is no place big enough in seattle to hold more than 2 fields and have seats for them, etc.)

-edit-
just saw the other post above about this and i agree the tacoma dome could potentially work (though it's still fairly small compared to the venue in st.louis)

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Pits
The pits for FRC take up about 2 and 1/3 of 6 halls. So, pits could double to 4 2/3, leaving 1 1/3 halls for the displays and stores.

Fields
While the Field could physically hold 8 fields, the issues are:
1) Spectator viewing of the fields; and
2) Traffic lanes.

You could have 2 fields on each end like Newton/Archimedes for 4 fields; and
2 fields on the far side from Alley; and
Possibly one more field on the side with the Alley.

While more fields could fit, it would be hard to get spectators (in the center of the field), or one would be right in front of the Alley. Maybe the Center is reserved for the Einstein field and stage.

Volunteers

About the only staff you could "share" with an adjacent field are the Refs and some of the Field Reset people. The FTA's, queuing, announcers, and others, are needed for the entire play and staging time.

Divisions

Assuming there are 7 fields, I think there should be dedicated divisions for:

1) Rookie teams. A rookie team that made it through winning a region/district could chose to compete with the rookies or in the regular divisions.

2) Teams that did not win a regional/district.

Let's say that leaves 4 divisions made up of solely Regional/District winners. Those would be the ones to compete on the Einstein field. In this configuration, the 4 Competing division fields would be the two on each end of the stadium. The other fields could be done by Friday night, and be torn down and out of the way for the Einstein finals, leaving a lot of seating with a view of the center of the stadium.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Just gonna throw out a two problems with this.

1. Where do you put the teams who qualified under the district system that didn't win there district championship or even a single district such as 1640 our Einstein Finalist
2. Do wild card winners go in the non-win division or the winner divisions like 1477 our Archimedes winner or 2848 our Einstein Winner

I am just going to say that splitting divisions by how you got here is a slippery slope and should not be done.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

It did get very crammed behind Archimedes and Curie with how close those two fields were on the corner. When you stop and think about it, due to the 4 team alliance set up it added 32 teams to the elimations meaning compared to previous years you had more than a division added to the crowds behind the fields.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

1) 1640 qualified through being one of the highest ranked teams in MAR after the final points sort. District Finalist, District Championship Alliance Captain, and played in Elims at their first district.... and a Division Winner in 2013.

2) 1477 was the reigning world champion.

There NEEDS to be a split at the championship, or there will never be a TRUE championship. The fact that there are teams that cannot control a game piece or positively contribute to an alliances overall effort really lowers the overall caliber of an event that is considered to be our 'Championship.' With that being said, we are fortunate enough to have crowned the best teams for the past few years, but not without a lot of undo stress along the way.

A team doesn't need to 'Win' to qualify for the championship, they can qualify however they make it work. But to truly play for a championship, that team should at least be able to complete the game objective.

There are a bunch of ways to make this work, one is putting them in their own division, with creates a lot of its own issues - mainly being that many of these teams will never get to interact with some of the most inspirational teams in FRC, but at the same time, ruining a top teams season isn't all that inspirational either....

An off the wall idea is to use some portion of load in day to give each team a chance to show their stuff on an open field... Those who cannot actually complete the game objective at some basic level are put into the match schedule differently, in a different 'class' or something, and any matches that are played with them (or an unbalanced amount from one alliance to the other) are treated as surrogate matches for the teams that are truly there to compete for the championship.... Now they're interacting with the top teams, and being inspired by the best, and at the same time those 'best teams' aren't being punished by the luck of the schedule at our 'Championship' event.

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Galois.

Would be nice to have the 'M' in STEM get some representation ;)

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+1 for the Galois Field joke :)

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Perhaps we could call the winning alliance the "Galois group?" :P

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On the point of noise pollution, FTC had 2 divisions with two fields RIGHT next to each other, and Curie next to those and it wasn't much of a problem. Whoever did the sound setup knows their stuff, because if you sat in the right place, you would only notice the field that you were watching and not any of the adjacent ones.

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I wasn't in the stands for Archimedes and Newton for very long, but I can imagine that it gets pretty confusing as you get closer to where their stands blend. That kind of crossover (of both seats and sound) would be significantly more common if we wedged another 2 fields into the dome.

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As a member of Archimedes queuing, I can say that both sound and seating might be a problem if you sat between the two fields. If you are worried about not to hear, you could have sat behind the red driver station, since no one was over there.

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It wouldn't be any more of a problem than sitting in the corner between Curie and Archimedes or Newton and Galileo. Adding two more fields isn't insane, especially if you take out Saturday morning quals and start alliance selections first thing in the morning to turn Einstein into a round robin.

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Seeing that only one part of the dome is moving next year (FTC), I feel that for FRC First should make a rookie team division. Given a solid influx of new teams each year, FIRST could add a division of 50-100 rookie teams that qualify from rookie all-star, etc. Even though this division would not compete in Einstein, there would still be 3 (or 4) World Rookie Championship teams. Plus, the competition would not be as rough for rookie teams, so rookies would have a solid chance to win compared to relatively little chance as it stands now. Teams would feel more inspired by other rookie teams as well as the prospects of being in one of the major divisions the following year. More non-rookie teams would also be able to fill in spots at nationals that rookies currently have. I feel that if First played this right, adding a rookie division would make a better experience for all teams with more competitive divisions, giving rookies easier competition, and still trying to provide that inspiration to work harder in the future. However, I am not sure how successful rookie teams (winning regionals, etc.) would work; maybe they would just qualify like the rest of the veteran teams.

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I agree, being in Curie myself. Maybe also if they set up curtains in between each field like the ones behind the screens it would help isolate each division without making them farther apart. You could still see other divisions simply by walking over to them.

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By suggesting this, you are implicitly saying that rookies are guaranteed to be less capable than veteran teams and should not even be given a chance to play (win?) with & against veteran teams. I think this is an incorrect assumption.

There are so many counter examples of rookies that outshine veteran teams.

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This is not quite my point. I know some rookie teams can be successful; there was one who made it to Einstein this year. However, it has shown over the years that veteran teams by nature have more success since they have more experienced coaches who understand the logistics of first. There are exceptions; I agree there should be a way to address them and give rookie teams a chance to win. However, history has shown in general rookie teams are not up to the caliber of the veterans. I agree this is the flaw in my idea and I believe some modified implementation of this idea will make the championships a better experience for all teams.

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Isn't there already a split where you go from 100 teams on a division down to 32?

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Well Chris, have you worked as a volunteer this year? I have. Your theory of sending volunteers back & forth between fields is insane. If you have noticed, not all volunteers are young. If you didn't have these multi-aged volunteers, you would not have enough volunteers for any FIRST event. After 6 weeks of District & Regionals most volunteers are getting a little tired. It IS a rewarding experience, but we as volunteers can only stretch ourselves so much. I am all for adding more fields to CHAMPS, but add more volunteers to make it work right. I leave those thoughts to all who have made it possible this year. Thanks & I'm looking forward to be beside all those great people next year.

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This. I'm definitely looking at volunteering next year, and I can't wait to see how the new layout works out.

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Being a mentor of a rookie team and alumni from a veteran team I can say rookies can put up a hard fight. As 1511 may be able to tell you ( as I may have some numbers wrong). 65 rookie competed out if the 410 new ones. 16 of them were alliance captains with 5 of them being as hgh as second seed. I was apart of one of the 5 and when I told teams were second seed they would say "oh you had an easy schedule" and it isn't true. We played the part we were supposed to and so did our alliance members and when it comes down to it rookies only differ from veterans some times in just terms of overall budgets. I know veteran teams with less man power and mentors than rookies. We also had many judges, volunteers, spectators and teams say to us you don't look like rookies with how our Bot was made. Rookies have won before and continue doing so and some rookies are sister teams of big names and can be a deadly force. Don't discount them for being first year teams. Between 4 mentors we had 25+ years of first experience.

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This, this, and more this.
Being a mentor for rookie team 4930 this year we played our very first match at championship against 33 and won. Our coach was also an alumni of a veteran team, 340, so our drive team was guided by capable hands. Our robot could do some things that veteran teams we played with could not do. Although the thought of a rookie division is something that has crossed my mind, being able to play against and with some "big name teams" is inspiring and also a great experience. Throwing the rookies in their own division makes it so they don't get to see teams who have been doing this for a while unless they specifically go to another division. Our students spent a lot of their time at Championships scouting the teams we were going to play with and against so we could figure out the best strategy. I feel like they would have learned a lot less had they not had to watch the veteran teams compete.

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I heard some mention of Round Robin.

I'm against a Round Robin after the past 2 years watching VEX attempt at one. With the possibility of more fields and teams, I think things are better off in groups of 4 or 8 than a round robin.

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How about some serious research and suggestions for naming potential new divisions after famous females? Is Marie Curie the only famous female in STEM? Seriously:] :] :]
Do some research on these and others and then post some suggestions:
Lise Meitner (1878-1968)
Emmy Noether (1882-1935)
Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin (1900-1979)
Barbara McClintock
Ada Byron (Countess of Lovelace)
...
The Curie curse has been broken so bring on more female division names.

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I decided to look at this in terms of STEM so a quick google search of famous Scientists comes up with: Darwin, Hawking, Bohr, Pasteur, and Aristotle.
Technologists: Turing, Gates, Jobs, Zworykin and Lovelace
Engineers: Wright, Eiffel, Benz, Tesla, and Nobel
Mathematicians: Descartes, Euclid, Riemann, Gauss, and Euler

Re: New Championship Layout 2015
 

Supposing we have an 8 alliance Einstein next year, I wonder if FIRST will explore other options than a typical 8 alliance tournament. That format has between 14 and 21 matches, and this will likely be closer to 21 since these are division winning alliances. One alternative is the 8 teams are divided into 2 groups of 4, each alliance in a group plays the other 3, and the top alliance from each goes to the finals. This keeps the match count lower; there would be 14 or 15 matches.

Also, a note on VEX using a round robin, since they have 5 divisions, they really don't have a choice(besides not having 5 divisions). Any other system will give an advantage to some divisions.

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Noether

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Yeah they don't have much of a choice, but I really don't think it's implemented well. At all. When teams IN the Round Robin don't know what's going on really. There was too much extra stuff.

That smaller group play if done right can be ok. You could also just make it single eliminations.

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Grace Hopper

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I think the answer is not increasing the size of the Championship event (For FRC at least) but adding another week to the season, and lengthening the playoffs.

There isn't a single city that will be able to accommodate the size of FIRST in 5 years. That's why I believe we should keep it the same size, and add a few play in events. You could split it East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, South, and divvy up international teams evenly.

I know there would be out cry that people won't be able to experience the Championship event, but look at how many people experience the super bowl? We're at a point where championships can't be as all inclusive "everybody come on in and gather round" as it used to be, you play to win, and if you don't make it, you watch it on TV and use it as drive for the next season.

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I agree with your points about expansion, but I disagree about your point about the championships not being as inclusive. FIRST world champs is more than a competition, it's an inspiring event meant to change the world. If we send less teams to this inspiring event, how are we changing the world in a more positive way?

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I don't like splitting off rookies into their own division, at least forcing them to do so. Maybe rookies can optionally play in a weaker division, but treating them as second class robots *purely* based on age when tons of veteran teams can't play either is unfair.

I also think the rookie / bad team "problem" is going to fix itself as districts become the norm everywhere. The real problem is that there should be some number of Rookie All Stars at champs, but that number is probably less than one per regional. A similar argument could be made for second pick regional winners, but there are many that were essential to their alliance and made the Championship elims so this can't be a blanket change. As we go to Districts, fewer slots are given to RAS / EI and more spots are given to high performing robots. The only second pick which guarantees qualification is the district champion whom has always deserved to play at Champs. If everyone could switch to districts tomorrow, this problem would be barely noticeable.

Until then, I'm not sure there's a great solution. Perhaps RAS would enter your team into a draft where the top X rookie teams advance to Champs - based on the district point system applied to that event. Maybe some kind of "scoring check" to ensure your team has the basic ability to manipulate a game piece or otherwise positively contribute to an alliance. But none of these ideas sound all that great, honestly.

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I may be biased since he grew up near my hometown, but I'd like to nominate Claude Shannon

All of the mathematics that go into modern communication was created by Shannon. This guy was brilliant. Everything about your cell phone, internet connection, digital TV, and virtually everything else in modern communications can be attributed to Claude Shannon - and the most amazing part is he did it all in 1948! Talk about being ahead of his time - it took around 40 years before most of his work could even be put to the test. He is a true "rock star" role model in that all current students could relate - especially given their propensity to use a cell phone.

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I am very against the idea of seperating rookie teams away from everyone else at champs. 4451 last year was a power house and 5122 was a finalist at the NE champs and I'm sure there are boat loads more that I do not have the experience of knowing that show that rookie teams can compete with everyone else.

As for the field space, although it was rather miserable, FRC was able to fit two full fields and an exhibition field for CARD in 2011 in the pit area with everything else. With the four fields in the dome now and more space now that FTC and FLL are gone, it is totally possible for FIRST to impliment four more fields in the pit area, even though it might make things a little more crowded.

I also really like the idea of 75 teams per division with the four team alliance set up for eliminations. That allows another 200 teams to go to champs and another 128 teams a slot in eliminations. It also eases the insanity of scouting and allows for the same number of matches to be played in less time which can mean alliance selections on friday night and more elimination matches on saturday. Maybe moving Einstein to best of 5 or best of 7 and really forcing teams to show the endurance of their robot.