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aldaeron 28-04-2014 00:21

On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
After watching a lot more matches this year than usual I noticed that a lot of teams have an adult coach. I am curious if your team has an adult or student coach and why?

Our team has done it both ways. Typically we have a student coach, but last year the students were having so many "issues" that I was asked to step in and coach. I will note that it is a ton of fun to coach - you get to meet all the drive teams, see all the robots up close and get one of the best seats in the house. With a lot of hard work, the students were much more organized this year and there was no need for me to step in. I was bummed but got over it quickly because I always thought of coaching as a "student job". After seeing so many adult coaches at all the events I thought that maybe I was wrong and we had put our kids at a disadvantage without an adult on the field. I have heard from various students that it is tougher to be a student coach when one of your alliance partners has an adult coach who disagrees with you (particularly when you are telling them not to take an auto ball because the scouting data says they are 0 for 8)

Yes, I realize every team does things differently and there is no "right" answer. I am most interested in why your team does it one way or another.

-matto-

Link07 28-04-2014 00:21

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
No

Meredith Novak 28-04-2014 00:34

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Link07 (Post 1379571)
No

Please, no. Pile of dead horses.

BBray_T1296 28-04-2014 00:37

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

Pls no

EricH 28-04-2014 01:15

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Relax, fellas. He's asking an honest question, or rather two of 'em.

To cut to the chase, they are:
1) Does your team use a student or adult as the drive coach?
2) What are your reasons for decision #1?

If this thread stays civil, I think we can have some good conversation. If the discussion gets out of hand, I'm sure a mod can be found to cut it off.

That said:

1197 used a combination this year. I wasn't closely involved, but if I recall correctly, during strategy meetings a mentor would be present regardless of who the coach was, in case of overbearing mentors on other teams. (Essentially, as a shield.) I don't recall seeing mentors on the field as a coach, but then again I wasn't paying much attention as I had my attention elsewhere. The reason why? Students run 1197, but they do work closely with the mentors--it's not uncommon to find parts done by mentors, or mentors showing students some new tricks to building a robot, or senior students showing younger students what they've learned. I'm sure if the students wanted an adult coach, one of the mentors would step up.

aldaeron 28-04-2014 01:15

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Clarification to original post: I do not have much experience with adult coaching and what its benefits are. I would like to know more from the community. I have read many of the debates on this topic already (even the ones with poorly worded whining about the topic). I did not find good, recent posts that offered good examples of doing coaching one way or another (maybe I used bad search terms).

I am interested in hearing your experience with coaching. I do not know of another way to ask the community for input other than posting, but do not want to create another "how to do FIRST right" type argument. Please PM me if you have some perspective on using a student or adult/mentor coach (especially if you have tried both). I am also interested to hear from students on drive teams. Did an adult coach help or hinder? Did a student coach help or hinder? Again, please PM me as to avoid the beating of any horses, dead or alive.

If you would be so kind as to fill out the poll so there is a more recent reflection of the break down in how teams utilize the coaching position, I am interested to see the results (the last one I saw was from 2008).

Free advice to people who are new to what online forums are: if you don't like a topic or see a repeated topic, don't click the link. I do it all the time on CD and other places. Works great!

Thanks!

Andrew Lawrence 28-04-2014 01:36

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I have been a drive coach for my team for the past three years. I am a student, however if I had a mentor who was better suited for the job I would have him/her do it in a heartbeat. There is a maturity and experience level you get from a mentor who has been drive coach for 5+ years that is impossible to come by in a student solely because of the time the mentor has been in the position. Students are cycled out every 4 years on a team - mentors can stay for a long, long time. Some may argue that the role of drive coach should be one experienced by a student, however I see the position as drive coach very much as a teaching and mentoring job to the drivers. The drive coach teaches and works with the drive team on how to maximize learning and understanding in the same way a teacher or mentor does, because this is what often results in success on the field.

Max Boord 28-04-2014 02:04

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
It is %100 team dependent. I have had to fight the "please dont load an auto ball" battle before and having an adult coach helps hugely. I have also seen students act as some of the best coaches (1876 and). I have also seen a few mentors with incredible coaching and strategy skills (1065 comes to mind).

We have used ex-driving mentors as coaches for years and it seams to work quite well.

Domtech 28-04-2014 02:37

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I have been on the Robototes drive team for 5 years, 4 as a student and one as a mentor. I traded around as coach/driver my first year before the team really understood the importance of a good coach. My second year I traded off being driver every other match with another student, and coached several of the matches I wasn't driving. My third year I was the main driver with Evan (the kid with the red Mohawk) as my co-driver. We had random students and mentors trade off being the coach that year.
Last year Evan once again took on the co-driver roll as he was also the team captain. The girl who drove went on to be our team captain this year. I was the coach, and apparently I did well enough that this year the team decided to have me coach again. Evan was picked as driver since he had the highest score (behind me :D) in our driving trial. We decided to take a risk and have his girlfriend be the co-driver, and it definitely paid off. Our drive team worked very well this year.

The main thing our team will be looking for in our drive coaches is the drive team experience, but being a mentor definitely helps.

wesbass23 28-04-2014 02:38

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
While there is nothing wrong with having a student as coach, I personally feel that an adult/mentor coach is better. This of course is completely biased as I am the drive coach for my team.

I think it is good to have a little consistency year to year instead of changing drive coaches every year or so. It helps you form positive relationships with other teams that also have adult coaches. I love going into prematch strategy meetings knowing that I can trust the coaches I will be working with. Plus having an adult on the drive team makes it much easier to vouch for your team's robot and driver capabilities.

Some of the most consistently good teams have adult drive coaches, a number of which I have yet to have the pleasure of working with.
Just of few of the best that I have gotten to work with personally are Glenn from 359, Dan from 469, Scott from 1625, and Kevin from 1675. I am quite positive that teams like 71, 111, 254, 1114, 1718 and more have adult coaches as well with numerous years of experience between them.

Again, nothing wrong with a student coach. I would just rather have a veteran adult one.

safiq10 28-04-2014 02:58

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
As a backup coach on a student coach team I think that if the students can handle the quick strategy and decision making options that need to be made in a moments notice let them do it. Our past captain this season (now alumni) did a great job at this. On field he was able to keep both teams relaxed and on there toes. Then off field me and him would go to every team and come up with pre-game strategies. So if a student can handle the mental pressure of being coach then let them.

Now if for say we had a adult coach on our alliance or perhaps on our team who really knew what he was doing and knew our competition very well ( Like ohh I don't know Allen Gregory [Thanks for the awesome elim matches in Dallas!]) we wouldn't have a problem with them being our coach.

We have also had our experience with both adult coaches and student coaches and from what I have heard and seen is that adult coaches tend to want to show off their team more. Now this is perfectly alright but sometime you need to focus on the game more than showing off your team.

On a similar but small side note: to all future coaches both students and adults alike. Please don't be rude. It very hard to work effectively with a coach who is being rude and insisting on letting their team do a job. There is difference between being rude and asking for another chance to shoot the ball in the goal

Thad House 28-04-2014 03:40

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use a student drive coach, because we like the experience it gives to the students.

Most mentor drive coaches are great. They have the experience to know how to win, and most of the time I have no problems with mentor drive coaches. However, there are the few that can be very stubborn. The coaches on those teams look at our high number, and start treating us like we are a lesser team.

At worlds both this year and last year, we had robots that could perform and score, but there were teams that would look at our number and tell us because of that we were going to be relegated to doing defense or inbound because they do not believe we can do much, and telling us things like "If we lose, we are going to blame it on you." And that just is not how a team should act, and when they start, we usually have to send a mentor in to help calm the situation.

If a team wants to use a mentor or a student drive coach, its up to the team, but to all the mentor drive coaches, please be nice to the students ones, because they are trying as hard as they can, and putting them down just makes it worse.

Navid Shafa 28-04-2014 03:55

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1379611)
However, there are the few that can be very stubborn. The coaches on those teams look at our high number, and start treating us like we are a lesser team.

Ignore them, play your game and work with them the best you can I suppose. If they bother to look at your team or machine, they would know better.

There is no excuse for anyone, student or mentor alike to treat any other team like this, regardless of their ability. I am quite frankly apalled.

AllenGregoryIV 28-04-2014 04:04

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by safiq10 (Post 1379607)
Now if for say we had a adult coach on our alliance or perhaps on our team who really knew what he was doing and knew our competition very well ( Like ohh I don't know Allen Gregory [Thanks for the awesome elim matches in Dallas!]) we wouldn't have a problem with them being our coach.

Thanks Safiq, this is actually the first year I have ever been an adult drive coach. I was coach or human player a lot in high school and for a long time thought that was the best system.

After looking at our team's development on the field and other very successful teams I started coming around to the idea of getting back on the field. Like other people in this thread have mentioned it's impossible for a student to have as much experience as a mentor who has been doing this for a long time. It also helps a lot when speaking with other teams and students. That time in queue is spent talking with other teams and helping them with their robot, students can do this as well but sometimes it's better received from an adult. Having an adult is also useful since if you play in the same region for a while you get to have relationships with the volunteers on the field and it's much harder to do that in just 4 years as a student. It also helps when things go a little wrong, I think I fixed a field gate at every regional I attended this year. It's not something a student couldn't do but I've been around long enough to know when it's time to run to get the vice grips off the cart.

rcmolloy 28-04-2014 04:07

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1379611)
At worlds both this year and last year, we had robots that could perform and score, but there were teams that would look at our number and tell us because of that we were going to be relegated to doing defense or inbound because they do not believe we can do much, and telling us things like "If we lose, we are going to blame it on you."

Well I honestly think that which ever team was associated in saying so needs to have a quick reality check and look at their scouting information or just keep their eyes on the field in general.

Our team certainly enjoyed playing against Shockwave this year. You guys certainly were one of the more competitive teams in Galileo and also up in the PNW.

Also in regards to the topic above, whether it be student or mentor, whatever gets the job done is what is the best choice for a team. This is coming from my mentoring experience. However, as a former driver, I would certainly prefer a mentor only because of the experience they've had on a drive team making mistakes that can be minimized when they are out on the field working with the students.

Thad House 28-04-2014 04:20

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1379614)
Our team certainly enjoyed playing against Shockwave this year. You guys certainly were one of the more competitive teams in Galileo and also up in the PNW.

Thanks. You guys were certainly an awesome team to play against in the finals. You guys played great and earned your way to Einstein. Also, it was great hearing all the nice things your alliance had to say about us after the finals, and its why your alliance includes some of the most respected teams in FIRST.

Koko Ed 28-04-2014 04:40

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use a student coach. It gives them a sense of ownership.

notmattlythgoe 28-04-2014 07:26

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
2363 uses a student coach as well on our team. I can vouch that on several instances quick decisions made by her this season won us matches.

I think both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. Mentors will almost always have the experience, where students will always bring a fresh outlook on how to play.

I also agree 4488 had a killer robot, it was great being on Galileo with you. I just wish we had had an opportunity to meet you on the field during the qualification rounds.

weberr 28-04-2014 07:55

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
If student achievement is you goal, then how you get that to happen can be done many ways and in different approaches each year. We have a phenomenal parent/mentor/coach who was previously a soccer coach. What makes him so special, is that he is able to assess the needs of the drive team: model structure, strategy and problem solving skills, as well as how to communicate and defuse a situation. As the students achieve during the year, our drive coach fades back promotes students to take over the role of drive coach. It is a win-win situation as students are set up for achievement rather than trusted into the position and having to swim.

Our team is small; we have about 17-18 students with 7-8 always in attendance, so having fantastic mentors/adults like our drive coach is almost a necessity. We are also a young team, with only four years under our belt. Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to have 70 or more students on the team five years from now. Would that change our needs? I do not know.

Jay O'Donnell 28-04-2014 08:16

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
1058 has a mentor that has been our drive coach for years, but he allows the students to decide what strategies we want to use and how we want to play, and then helps our drivers to do that. During offseasons we'll usually have a student coach as long as we have a student not already on drive team that we think can handle it.

mrnoble 28-04-2014 08:45

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
This was the first year that we had adults (myself and a recent grad switched off with each other). It seemed to fit the needs of the game for our team, as the team was structured this year. It was lots of fun for me, as in ten years I had never been on the field. We'll reevaluate next year and do what's right.

pandamonium 28-04-2014 10:11

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We have a student as the on field coach but an adult alumni (me) support them. This prevents issues with overbearing teams and intense interactions between adult coaches. Pre match is alot for one person. Now you can have too many but an adult and student is a good fit. It also allows for the mentoring through working with adults that first is all about.

E Dawg 28-04-2014 10:19

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use a student coach every year. Personally, I find it provides a sense of continuum for the student-run aspect of the team. We built the robot, so we get to field it (not that any of our mentors would do a bad job of coaching). Plus, it helps us practice being leaders and teaches us how to advocate for ourselves.

kristinweiss 28-04-2014 10:58

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Our team always has a student as the coach mainly because our team prides ourselves in being so student run

cgmv123 28-04-2014 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthernTaco (Post 1379692)
Our team always has a student as the coach mainly because our team prides ourselves in being so student run

Same here.

dag0620 28-04-2014 11:02

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We always use a student coach, as we try to have things as student ran as possible. Also, we don't really have any strategy intensive mentors on the team, so its usually a Senior who takes up that roll.

This year, we considered changing to using an adult coach, mainly do to our robot, and possible safety issues with it. It was felt having a responsible adult with authority on DT could prevent a volunteer or other team member from getting hurt in the rare event they tried to handle our robot. In the end we went with a student coach, and had no issues what so ever.

Anupam Goli 28-04-2014 11:05

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
While we tried out having a mentor coach during an offseason event, we ultimately decided to have a student coach. With such a volatile mentor base (read: College students), we think having a student that is dedicated and can 100% attend every competition would be the best fit for the coaching position. Our student coach is very knowledgeable about the game and strategies, and is trained by our experienced mentors on how to coach. The scouting leader, scouting mentor, strategy mentor, and the coach all work on the match strategy though before the match is played.

PayneTrain 28-04-2014 11:22

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
422 has been, to my knowledge, a team that has operated with a student coach since its inception up until this year. This was the first year where a perfect storm of sorts occured and the students asked me to coach. Students on 422 are very astute individuals who are very well suited to gaining an edge on the strategy and scouting of the games, but given student makeup of the team (all seniors and most juniors have well defined roles they enjoy on or off the drive team), the inability to identify a student we could plug into the role and have it work as well as an adult, and the game this year looking like it would be hell on a drive coach, I stepped in.

I was a drive coach in parts of 2010 and all of 2012, where we took objectively terrible robots to finalist appearances, and came back as adult this year to take an objectively mediocre robot to a top 25 finish on the division. Whether or not 422 moves back to a student, picks another adult, or keeps me is something to be done in our end-of-season review. I did enjoy my time as a drive coach every time I have done it, but this year especially has taken a toll on me. I do know I would definitely relinquish the role at the request of the drive team or if myself or others find a student who could bring a better perspective to the game than me.

JohnFogarty 28-04-2014 11:25

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I've been on both sides of the coin with this particular choice.

When I was a student on team 1102 it was understood that at both the FTC and FRC team level that our coach would be a student. I was that coach for 2 out of my 4 years on the team, and then I was one of the drivers the other 2 years. Honestly, I think I would have preferred an adult coach. The student coaches we had didn't seem to contribute much to the strategy, maybe that was just my team, or just the years I was on it.

Now that I'm one of the head mentors of 4901 we use a college student/adult coach for mainly leadership because our students are inexperienced. Plus our coach was a driver once himself. So he knows the pressure and tactics required of the position. Next year it might be different, I'm not sure yet. It all comes down to what we decide as a team.

Nemo 28-04-2014 11:25

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use student coaches, but there was one year when I acted as the drive team coach. That works out pretty well in hindsight, because now I'm able to prepare a student to be the drive coach much better than I could if I didn't have that experience.

Preparing the drive team coach is a really important piece of the puzzle for a team that wants to be competitive. It is a bigger job than it looks, and there are a number of things about it that make it very challenging for a student. I would agree that it's a great experience for a student to have.

Mastonevich 28-04-2014 11:26

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Our team also tries to keep student involvement as high as possible and having a student drive coach works toward that goal. I kind of like that students are having to discuss strategies with adults, with some of the adults very persistent. It teaches them things that student to student only interaction would not otherwise achieve. Those skills will be used the rest of their lives. Mentor/Student interaction is what FIRST brings to the table and the differing views of teams regarding this subject just brings about another method for that interaction to occur.

However, personally I believe that it is normally a competitive advantage on most teams to have an experienced adult as the coach for the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Everything is a compromise and one should be able to find positives and negatives for both approaches.

AFron10 28-04-2014 12:22

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
This past weekend at championships I had the opportunity to stand on the field level and be right near the drive teams. Personally our team uses a student coach. As I watched divisional elimination matches I noticed some terrible things. For one of the matches there were 5 seconds left and a human player wasn't paying attention and then forgot to put the ball in play. All of the sudden the adult coach from there alliance (who was on a different team but on the same alliance) ran over and started to yell at the human player and included multiple inappropriate words directed to the student. The student already felt bad enough about it and the adult coach yelling at him didn't help at all. Their alliance won that match so he cooled down. I just think that the drive team should be only students so they can discuss things together on a peer to peer level.

notmattlythgoe 28-04-2014 12:28

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AFron10 (Post 1379739)
This past weekend at championships I had the opportunity to stand on the field level and be right near the drive teams. Personally our team uses a student coach. As I watched divisional elimination matches I noticed some terrible things. For one of the matches there were 5 seconds left and a human player wasn't paying attention and then forgot to put the ball in play. All of the sudden the adult coach from there alliance (who was on a different team but on the same alliance) ran over and started to yell at the human player and included multiple inappropriate words directed to the student. The student already felt bad enough about it and the adult coach yelling at him didn't help at all. Their alliance won that match so he cooled down. I just think that the drive team should be only students so they can discuss things together on a peer to peer level.

Our drive team also witnessed an adult drive coach on an alliance partner during qualification rounds yell at a student after the match to the point that he felt uncomfortable being near the incident.

Dunngeon 28-04-2014 12:29

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
955 uses a student drive coach (me), which we prefer because we are a student run team. My only disappointment from this year is I was co-driving for our single driver (only one controller) and couldn't interface well with other teams while managing our driver.

I think this part hurt our robots performance at worlds because there was a lot more strategy going on which required more talking between the teams.

So, what I got from the season is that we needed 2 individuals who were quick on their feet with strategy and adaptation. One to co-drive our driver, and one to take the position of coach which will allow us adequate ability to work effectively with other teams. Ideally, this will be the driver, but it's extremely hard to find good drivers that can do strategy on the fly.

973 and 1717 did a great job managing strategy, going over all contingency plans before the match. Unfortunately we threw a wrench in their plans by missing an auto ball, but the strategy dictated what to do and contributed to a smooth match. That level of strategy was something I personally had never seen in a match, and would be a good argument for a mentor on strategy meetings or actually on the drive team in an effort to keep strategy at such a high level.

To address the adults that overpower the students, It's there, I had it attempted on me once. I suspect it would have been pulled more often if I didn't look 20 something). An Adult definitely would help most teams with this.

SamanthaW 28-04-2014 12:35

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
4555 uses a student coach (me actually). With only three mentors and 10 students we're a very student-run team. We find that a student mentor works best for us because we know how to work with each other extremely well, and we've trained on the rules beyond belief. :]

eddie12390 28-04-2014 12:43

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use a student coach. The only time that we have ever had issues with it is when an adult mentor feels that they should always be the sole deciding factor in things like match strategy. At Championships there were a few times that we felt like the adult coach on the other side was not listening to our input at all and that it was valuable in no way.

popnbrown 28-04-2014 13:06

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
This was actually a pretty interesting issue for my rookie team this year. At our regional event, I would stand with my team as they were in queue and would listen in on the strategy talk but we had a student as our coach. He really took into strategy and for the rest of the event was always out of the pits talking to teams about strategy.

I would always ask him about our strategy, why it was that way, whether it works for us, etc, and I think that helped him really understand how to play the game, and to also pick out who should be doing what. I didn't go onto the field during the regional, and from what I could tell it seemed like there was minimal talking between him and our driver because our driver yelled back at him and so he decided it was best to not talk again (I found out post regional).

It also seemed like many other Coaches, adults and students were intimidating our driver and coach (they're both 7th graders). It also seemed like many adult coaches would disregard our student coach, and either talk directly to me while in queue or talk straight to our driver. It was pretty upsetting to our student coach, as he wanted to be involved but others didn't let him be.

At World Championships, I started to accompany them as the "Coach" but our student coach did strategy and was more involved with the driver. After I noticed there was 0 communication between him and our driver, I warned them both that this was no way for a drive team to act, and our driver needs to listen and our coach needs to talk. When he did talk, I realized why there was tension our coach wasn't focused on our strategy or what we were doing or our human player and rather his own agenda. Ex - he told our driver to go defend 254 (he's obsessed with dem Pofs), when we had the ball and were trying to drop it.

My experience being a coach, you can't take anything personal out on the field, your alliance partners will yell at you, everyone gets their blood pressure pumped but as soon as you leave the field or the match is over, everyone's back to their regular selves. My team members being so young, I don't think they saw that there was a different mask put on when you got on the field. Getting on the field, helped as coaches would yell at me rather than at our driver or student coach.

In general, I would agree with it being a student coach, however being on the field allowed me to encourage the students and directly be involved with this part of the process. It tremendously added to my perspective of what was happening and allowed me to give better feedback and mentor the entire drive team.

It's a tough situation, because I want the students to be the ones who not only come up with strategies but develop the skills to react real-time and change the strategy if need be. However, it doesn't help to be yelled at by others as that puts a frowny face on them. It's a difficult position as I can't help if I'm not there, but me being there doesn't develop those skills...I'll likely need to put more thought into this, and we'll figure this out as a team.

Not sure what to do going forward, but we'll see how it goes. Maybe sticking with 1 driver, 1 student coach, 1 adult coaching mentor, 1 human player maybe the best for us.

Drivencrazy 28-04-2014 13:13

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastonevich (Post 1379707)
Our team also tries to keep student involvement as high as possible and having a student drive coach works toward that goal. I kind of like that students are having to discuss strategies with adults, with some of the adults very persistent. It teaches them things that student to student only interaction would not otherwise achieve.

Would your student drivers not get the same experience (more often perhaps) if the mentor was your drive coach?

Chris is me 28-04-2014 13:16

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
No need to jump down anyone's throat yet - it's just a thread asking for the pros / cons of why you make the decision you do. There's going to be some people implicitly asserting that a student coach means your team is more student run, or that a mentor coach is inherently better for on field performance, or other incorrect assumptions like that. I would encourage people to ignore them.

2791 has always used a mentor coach, and probably always will in regular season events. The opportunity for direct mentorship between the drive coach, strategy mentors, and students on the drive team is just too great to pass up. Much like a great football coach can inspire a football team, or a great basketball coach can keep players in the zone while making strategic decisions, a great robotics coach can serve as a role model, leader, and friend to a drive team. Watching the current drive team "grow up" under the direction of our mentor coach over the past two years has been incredible, and I'm sure not a single member of the drive team would trade away the dynamic that's developed for anything else.

A student coach is not a bad coach. We have worked with excellent student coaches over the past several years, and I was even a student coach on my old team. Along the same lines, a mentor coach is not inherently bad either. When doing pre-match strategy, I pay almost no attention to the age of the other coaches. I care about how knowledgeable they are of the game, their robot, and the strengths / weaknesses of the alliance. We work together to come up with a plan that lets everyone contribute in a positive way. If we come in with a plan and the other alliance is opposed to it, we try and find a compromise that works. I don't feel I have been listened to in pre-match strategy more as an adult than a student. Whether or not I'm listened to depends on my confidence, the validity of the plan, and my willingness to work with others.

A lot of the problems people have in this thread aren't with student coaches or mentor coaches. These people actually have problems with coaches who are massive jerks. Regardless of age, massive jerks shouldn't be coaches, and teams shouldn't let massive jerks serve as their coaches. If we all adhered to this rule, this topic wouldn't be nearly as contentious. I will say that coaches need to be some of the most mature people on the team, and it's easier to find a mature mentor than a mature student, but that doesn't mean students can't be mature enough for the role.

Jay O'Donnell 28-04-2014 13:22

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1379775)
A lot of the problems people have in this thread aren't with student coaches or mentor coaches. These people actually have problems with coaches who are massive jerks. Regardless of age, massive jerks shouldn't be coaches, and teams shouldn't let massive jerks serve as their coaches. If we all adhered to this rule, this topic wouldn't be nearly as contentious. I will say that coaches need to be some of the most mature people on the team, and it's easier to find a mature mentor than a mature student, but that doesn't mean students can't be mature enough for the role.

This is a great analysis of the argument. It's not about age: adults and students can both be complete jerks, or can both be great coaches. In some cases, a student on a team may conduct themselves as a coach better than any mentor on their team, but in some cases there may not be a student who is capable of conducting themselves as a coach.

Mastonevich 28-04-2014 14:57

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivencrazy (Post 1379773)
Would your student drivers not get the same experience (more often perhaps) if the mentor was your drive coach?

We have a strategy mentor work directly with the student drive team and most specifically the student drive coach before and after each match. On top of that they may get even more mentor/student interaction with another teams mentor when discussing strategy with other teams.

Kyle Stewart 28-04-2014 15:46

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1379611)
We use a student drive coach, because we like the experience it gives to the students.

Most mentor drive coaches are great. They have the experience to know how to win, and most of the time I have no problems with mentor drive coaches. However, there are the few that can be very stubborn. The coaches on those teams look at our high number, and start treating us like we are a lesser team.

At worlds both this year and last year, we had robots that could perform and score, but there were teams that would look at our number and tell us because of that we were going to be relegated to doing defense or inbound because they do not believe we can do much, and telling us things like "If we lose, we are going to blame it on you." And that just is not how a team should act, and when they start, we usually have to send a mentor in to help calm the situation.

If a team wants to use a mentor or a student drive coach, its up to the team, but to all the mentor drive coaches, please be nice to the students ones, because they are trying as hard as they can, and putting them down just makes it worse.

Great job on the field out there, 4488! I'm sorry to hear that you were not respected by certain teams due solely to that first digit, you guys were a pleasure to watch and clearly had built a robot that exceeded the majority of older teams.

Our team uses an adult coach because of our policy of only having seniors participate in robotics. Personally, I think certain students can and do exceed the abilities of adults in coaching as in any regard. However, to be an effective coach I think a student has to spend a lot of time and energy understanding the game and being able to adapt quickly. It is not something that just any student can handle. Similarly, plenty of mentors make bad coaches if they lack those skills.

Heartily agree that the key thing is not to be a massive jerk.

Jscout11 28-04-2014 15:49

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We're soon reaching 200 students on the team, and see no reason why we can't find 8 dedicated student drivers. It just works for us

notmattlythgoe 28-04-2014 15:51

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jscout11 (Post 1379888)
We're soon reaching 200 students on the team, and see no reason why we can't find 8 dedicated student drivers. It just works for us

2....hundred... Dear god can we have some?

Bob Steele 28-04-2014 16:13

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1379611)

At worlds both this year and last year, we had robots that could perform and score, but there were teams that would look at our number and tell us because of that we were going to be relegated to doing defense or inbound because they do not believe we can do much, and telling us things like "If we lose, we are going to blame it on you." And that just is not how a team should act, and when they start, we usually have to send a mentor in to help calm the situation.

You guys performed terrifically on and off the field. Any coach (student or mentor) that would tell any team "If we lose, we are going to blame it on you" is demented. In your case, triply so...

You have been so much fun to play against and watch play this year. You have a fine team and we look forward to many years of being on the field with you and to getting to know you better off the field too. You have an incredible set of mentors and parents that really enhances your team.

Have a great off season... (oops... well I bet you don't have an off-season really do you? We don't either... :)

At least now we can get a little more sleep...

cadandcookies 28-04-2014 16:25

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1379775)
No need to jump down anyone's throat yet - it's just a thread asking for the pros / cons of why you make the decision you do. There's going to be some people implicitly asserting that a student coach means your team is more student run, or that a mentor coach is inherently better for on field performance, or other incorrect assumptions like that. I would encourage people to ignore them.

2791 has always used a mentor coach, and probably always will in regular season events. The opportunity for direct mentorship between the drive coach, strategy mentors, and students on the drive team is just too great to pass up. Much like a great football coach can inspire a football team, or a great basketball coach can keep players in the zone while making strategic decisions, a great robotics coach can serve as a role model, leader, and friend to a drive team. Watching the current drive team "grow up" under the direction of our mentor coach over the past two years has been incredible, and I'm sure not a single member of the drive team would trade away the dynamic that's developed for anything else.

A student coach is not a bad coach. We have worked with excellent student coaches over the past several years, and I was even a student coach on my old team. Along the same lines, a mentor coach is not inherently bad either. When doing pre-match strategy, I pay almost no attention to the age of the other coaches. I care about how knowledgeable they are of the game, their robot, and the strengths / weaknesses of the alliance. We work together to come up with a plan that lets everyone contribute in a positive way. If we come in with a plan and the other alliance is opposed to it, we try and find a compromise that works. I don't feel I have been listened to in pre-match strategy more as an adult than a student. Whether or not I'm listened to depends on my confidence, the validity of the plan, and my willingness to work with others.

A lot of the problems people have in this thread aren't with student coaches or mentor coaches. These people actually have problems with coaches who are massive jerks. Regardless of age, massive jerks shouldn't be coaches, and teams shouldn't let massive jerks serve as their coaches. If we all adhered to this rule, this topic wouldn't be nearly as contentious. I will say that coaches need to be some of the most mature people on the team, and it's easier to find a mature mentor than a mature student, but that doesn't mean students can't be mature enough for the role.

This sums up my team pretty well too. We've had an adult mentor as our drive coach for as long as I can remember, and a large part of that is the consistency and perspective that an adult can bring to the situation. For the last four (at least) years, our drive coach has been a data architect who has been with the team almost since the beginning. He's one of the calmest people I know and is a master of both persuasion and defusing tense situations, because that's his job. That being said, the last couple of years have let him take a back seat, letting students occasionally act as drive coaches for matches where there are other experienced drive teams on the field. Might we be a bit more successful if he was always out there? Probably, but I think we've found a happy medium. We're transitioning towards possibly having a different drive coach next year, who will probably also be an adult, but I think the same applies there-- students may come and go, but a good mentor drive coach can stay with the team and provide a solid cornerstone to work off of.

CLandrum3081 28-04-2014 19:11

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We consistently have a student coach, and haven't run into any issues. Call it "Minnesota nice", but our drive team has been very vocal about when issues do happen, and none have been with other coaches or drive teams, save occasional miscommunication or misrepresentation (the typical "oh yeah we can do xyz and abc" and the team dances the whole match). But really, we haven't had any issues and our coach this year had four years of experience, so we didn't see any reason to have an adult coach. That's just our team, though.

mega900997 28-04-2014 20:36

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We have a student coach because it's what we've done and it works for us. We've always been a student run team during competitions and our mentors only help us out with making sure the robot is functioning.

One adult coach I remember in particular was during the Buckeye Regional when we were teamed up with the legendary team 217. The reason why this coach stuck out in particular was that he helped with strategy, was very cooperative and before each of our elimination matches, he gave us an inspiring pep talk. Props to 217's mentor for being a great guy and we hope to meet again next year.

EMHS2773 28-04-2014 21:02

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We have always had a student coach. We don't need an adult yelling at them telling them how to drive the robot. They know how to drive the robot and it teaches them how to think for themselves. I've typically seen a correlation between the teams that have adult coaches and the ones that let the adults build the whole robot. This year, our mentors were more hands-off than ever, and we made leaps and bounds because of this. We may not have done as well as we wanted to, but we learned so much more from from it. The STUDENTS made the mistakes, and the STUDENTS learned from it, and the STUDENTS built the robot.

SkittlesCharge 28-04-2014 21:06

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Our team prides itself on being student-led, so we have a student coach. This year was slightly more complicated than just that, however. I was our team's second driver this year, and I controlled our robot's shooter. Our shooter was almost completely automated, though, so I really only had one button on my controller. This allowed me to serve as a "team coach" while our actual student coach filled the role of "alliance coach". We felt this allowed our alliances to be more effective and unified. Also, because of some major upgrades to our scouting system this year, one of our mentors became more involved with strategy and scouting. Though he never coached us on the field, he did often help us plan strategy before matches*, so overall I would say we had 2.5 coaches this year. :D

*We are currently planning to have a student fill this role next year, to get students more involved again.

Chris is me 28-04-2014 21:09

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EMHS2773 (Post 1380150)
We have always had a student coach. We don't need an adult yelling at them telling them how to drive the robot. They know how to drive the robot and it teaches them how to think for themselves. I've typically seen a correlation between the teams that have adult coaches and the ones that let the adults build the whole robot. This year, our mentors were more hands-off than ever, and we made leaps and bounds because of this. We may not have done as well as we wanted to, but we learned so much more from from it. The STUDENTS made the mistakes, and the STUDENTS learned from it, and the STUDENTS built the robot.

Please don't judge other teams by their build styles, and please don't make assumptions about other team's building by their choice in drive coach. We have an adult drive coach and a painted, professional looking robot. I am confident that you would jump to the conclusion that we were an adult built robot and you would be dead wrong. The implication of your post is that adult involvement is inherently at the expense of student learning, growth, and development, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Be proud of what works for your team but please not at the expense or judgement of others.

EMHS2773 28-04-2014 21:58

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1380155)
Please don't judge other teams by their build styles, and please don't make assumptions about other team's building by their choice in drive coach. We have an adult drive coach and a painted, professional looking robot. I am confident that you would jump to the conclusion that we were an adult built robot and you would be dead wrong. The implication of your post is that adult involvement is inherently at the expense of student learning, growth, and development, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Be proud of what works for your team but please not at the expense or judgement of others.

I wasn't trying to downcast robots that looked professionally built. I love seeing robots built extremely well and our team tries to make ours look the best it can. I was just referencing the teams that I've talked to that seemed the students we were talking with had no interaction with the actual build of the robot. This didn't help when I saw only mentors in the pits working on the robot. While I only saw a handful of instances at our 2 competitions this year, several people on our team observed an increase in this kind of adult involvement in the pits and the field over previous years.

Sorry to derail this thread, I just didn't want anyone to misinterpret my opinion.

dellagd 28-04-2014 23:23

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
On 2607, since our rookie year, we have had a student coach for two reasons.

First of all, the position of coach is seen as a great opportunity for students to build really good leadership skills through the interactions with the drive team and other teams. One main reason that I see teams using an adult coach is that it is a unique mentoring opportunity for the 3 students on the drive team, which is completely true. This, however, doesn't allow a student to grow into that role, to lean in that role (learn very applicable life skills I might add). There really isn't any other position that gives that sort of experience for students in FRC.

Also, having an adult be a coach on the field can be a bit intimidating for some students. Having an adult yell out things at you, a lot of kids kindof shutdown or stop thinking. When it's a student, the relationship seems more natural where the drivers converse and contest about the decisions of the coach (not necessarily on the field).

And, for the obligatory "don't hate" line: Just my two cents :D

EMHS2773 29-04-2014 09:43

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1380214)
On 2607, since our rookie year, we have had a student coach for two reasons.

First of all, the position of coach is seen as a great opportunity for students to build really good leadership skills through the interactions with the drive team and other teams. There really isn't an other position that give that sort of experience for students in FRC.

Also, having an adult be a coach on the field can be a bit intimidating for some students. Having an adult yell out things at you, a lot of kids kindof shutdown or stop thinking. When it's a student, the relationship seems more natural where the drivers converse and contest about the decisions of the coach (not necessarily on the field).

This is the best way I could've worded it.

AndrewGRowles 29-04-2014 09:44

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Boord (Post 1379603)
It is %100 team dependent. I have had to fight the "please dont load an auto ball" battle before and having an adult coach helps hugely. I have also seen students act as some of the best coaches (1876 and). I have also seen a few mentors with incredible coaching and strategy skills (1065 comes to mind).

Wow, thanks.

Personally I think students can be great coaches. When talking and strategizing with alliances student coaches communicate with other students better. In my experiences, it is easy for an adult coach to put off a condescending tone and it can be awkward for alliance members to discuss strategizes with another team's adult coach. Also I feel having a student coach better represents your team.

In my opinion a coach's job is to know the rules, organize, strategize, and motivate.

Zuelu562 29-04-2014 09:52

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Since I have become a mentor and joined my current team, we have had an adult coach (me). During my time as a student, we had adult coaches except 2011, where I stepped up to coach. As has been said before, the coach is the anchor of the drive team; it will weigh it down or give it stability in rough seas. Know your rules, know how to be diplomatic, know your robot's limits and know when to say yes and no. Whether it's an adult or a student, the best coaches know.

Deke 29-04-2014 10:23

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
This is just my opinion from one year behind the glass as an adult coach. It seemed to me that 3/4 of the student coached teams struggled with organization on the field. That is when most of the pre game strategy went out the window during the match. That's not to say that adult coaches didn't struggle either, but it was closer to 1/3 of the teams with adult coaches.

Whatever fits your team structure is what you should use and follow for your drive team. It's all about inspiring students, do what inspires the most.

My biggest frustration was when others didn't know the basic rules of the game, it doesn't matter who the drive coach is if no one knows the rules.

Adam Freeman 29-04-2014 11:00

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I hesitate to chime into the conversation because I don't want to say that one way or another is better for someone else's team.

For HOT, we have always had an adult coach. Before me we had a great coach in Ken Velzy. I learned from him how to coach and work with the students.

Coaching the HOT Drive team is one of the most rewarding opportunities I have had in my life. Getting to work with our "best of the best" students is amazing. Meeting other students and metors from the greatest teams in FIRST is what keeps me going. I know FIRST is for inspiring students, but us adults also live for this stuff as well.

When I was working in the pits...or scouting in the stands, I never met anyone. No one knew who I was...and I was not out-going enough to go out an meet people from other teams. Without meeting some of these other great FRC mentors (JVN, Cory/EJ, Karthik, Paul Copioli, etc...) and hearing/discussing FRC with them, I would not be nearly the mentor I am today. Hopefully, I am paying that back to both my team and other teams during my interactions with the students, presentations, etc...

From a pre-match perspective, I try to ask our alliance partners what they can do and what strategy they would like to run. 95% of the time, it's exactly what we want to do anyways. The other 5% we need to have a discussion on how to comprimise on the differences. I hope to not come off as a jerk during strategy discussions. But, we will call out a team that is lying about their capabilities.

During match play and just after is probably where I need the most work on emotion control. I try to limit any outburst to just my drive team. But, some times we may yell to another team about what to do. In qualifications if an assignment is missed, I usually let it go. In eliminations, we might have a conversation about what/how to do it in the next match.

I have worked with both adult and student coaches that are both incredibly talented and also some that are completely worthless on the field. Typically the students are much more open and honest about their machine and it's capabilities. I have no issue working with student coaches and drivers.

The one concern I have for teams with student coaches, is seeing the driver's and coaches arguing on the field. In the coach/driver relationship there needs to be clear definition that the coach is responsible for what on the field. Strategy, positioning, who to defend, how/when to score, etc... these need to be clearly determined through practice and lines of responsibility. When it's student to student, their is a possible power struggle that can play out during the match... effecting both the team and alliance.

For us, my driver's control the robot...but when given a command by me, that should override what they think is needed at that time. Because I can see the entire field and know what else is happening, I have the ultimate say. That allows the driver's to be free of the burden of answering why we did something....since it all falls on me. It helps me protect them in a way from the rest of the team.

I guess this is a long way of saying I hope I am providing a net benefit to our students and FRC in general as an adult coach of the HOT Team, and that is one of the biggest reasons why we choose to have an adult coach.

popnbrown 29-04-2014 13:03

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1380387)
I know FIRST is for inspiring students, but us adults also live for this stuff as well.

Side note - I'm as much if not more inspired by what students can do and what a community can do than students are. I completely agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1380387)
...is seeing the driver's and coaches arguing on the field...the coach/driver relationship there needs to be clear definition that the coach is responsible for...Strategy, positioning, who to defend, how/when to score, etc... When it's student to student, their is a possible power struggle that can play out during the match

I can see the entire field and know what else is happening....since it all falls on me.

All the things you mentioned, how amazing would it be if a group of 14-18 year olds were capable of working this out themselves. My argument for a student coach, is allowing a student to learn all of those things you do as an adult coach. Imagine, if we could get a group of students to look at a match they lost because of one person making a call, but yet be there to support each other. If those exact skills you mentioned were to be learned by a student....how powerful would that be?

At the end of the day, and this is where many may disagree, it's about what is learnt and not about who wins. If my team were to lose a quarterfinal match and come back to me, talked it out in front of me, what went wrong, what each other needs to do, go in for a team high five, and get back out there <- that's worth more than a million world championships.

As a mentor who got to hold a blue banner for the first time ever, the banner represents my students ability to work under 6 hrs of pressure to re-build their kitbot, the ability of a 13 year old kid to go talk to people 4 or 24 years older than him and dictate what strategy we were going to play and the countless number of emails over the span of 3 days requesting times for meetings sitting in my inbox.

Chris is me 29-04-2014 14:24

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popnbrown (Post 1380452)
All the things you mentioned, how amazing would it be if a group of 14-18 year olds were capable of working this out themselves. My argument for a student coach, is allowing a student to learn all of those things you do as an adult coach. Imagine, if we could get a group of students to look at a match they lost because of one person making a call, but yet be there to support each other. If those exact skills you mentioned were to be learned by a student....how powerful would that be?

At the end of the day, and this is where many may disagree, it's about what is learnt and not about who wins. If my team were to lose a quarterfinal match and come back to me, talked it out in front of me, what went wrong, what each other needs to do, go in for a team high five, and get back out there <- that's worth more than a million world championships.

You have an excellent point that is a strong argument in favor of student coaches. I just want to add that mentor coaches are not always at the expense of students learning. In some cases, students learn and grow more from working with an experienced mentor coach than they do with a peer. We don't really use an adult coach to get a competitive advantage - we use one to better inspire our kids within our particular team dynamic.

Basically, I get the idea from a lot of people (not really you, just reminded me of it) that student coaches are inherently more educational and mentor coaches are chosen for competitive reasons. I just want to provide an example to show that isn't always the case.

hrench 29-04-2014 14:26

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Though I think any team with an adult coach has a couple of advantages, I think it's absolutely the wrong thing to do.


I just looked up 'mentor'--"an experienced and trusted advisor" An advisor just helps with his advice.

We adults could just design and build the robot too and I'm pretty sure it would be better than the kid-built one. Probably could drive better too--the best fighter pilots are in their 40s. But this game is for the kids to learn. Any jobs we do are ones that they don't get to learn from.

When I see my drive coach go-up against an adult in a disagreement, she always 'loses' even when she's right. Its just not fair. Against the spirit of this organization. My opinion.

popnbrown 29-04-2014 16:45

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1380486)
You have an excellent point that is a strong argument in favor of student coaches. I just want to add that mentor coaches are not always at the expense of students learning. In some cases, students learn and grow more from working with an experienced mentor coach than they do with a peer. We don't really use an adult coach to get a competitive advantage - we use one to better inspire our kids within our particular team dynamic.

Basically, I get the idea from a lot of people (not really you, just reminded me of it) that student coaches are inherently more educational and mentor coaches are chosen for competitive reasons. I just want to provide an example to show that isn't always the case.

FYI, I as a mentor was the "official" coach for our team during World Championships. We only had 1 driver (and 3 kids...) so it made sense.

I completely agree, mentor coaches aren't necessarily competitive (they aren't necessarily not competitive either). I actually think that what I was talking about are skills that even drivers and human players can use. Being there on the field, I was able to provide soooo much better feedback than I was at Regionals and actually mentor the team to realize how to better work together. Also...we had some driver/student coach tension to work out, and being on the field helped me realize why, and it's something I can fix now.

I like the idea of feeling it out and doing it as is every year. There's a lot of teams that seem to change it up per year, and I plan on re-evaluating every year and doing that. We might even just stick to 1 driver for a bit (we'll see!)

popnbrown 29-04-2014 16:57

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hrench (Post 1380489)
Though I think any team with an adult coach has a couple of advantages, I think it's absolutely the wrong thing to do.

When I see my drive coach go-up against an adult in a disagreement, she always 'loses' even when she's right. Its just not fair. Against the spirit of this organization. My opinion.

I think you've been with bad coaches, and even horrible mentors. An adult coach is a "mentor" and someone who should be advising. The people you are talking about are not mentors either and therefore are not qualified to be in that position.

Once a mentor, always a mentor. It doesn't matter if it's my team, the team a mile away or a team from Israel. It's my obligation and duty to mentor any and all students. Unless, I personally think that our alliance would have NOTHING to gain, I would have never even disagreed. Heck...I've succumbed to some strategies by other teams, that were bogus.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hrench (Post 1380489)
I just looked up 'mentor'--"an experienced and trusted advisor" An advisor just helps with his advice.

An adult coach is a mentor of the team. I barely strategize with alliance partners, only if a student of mine answers incorrectly (ex (this never happend) says we can shoot with just a kitbot). I am there to observe, guide and advise. It's hard, but I even tried to withhold my comments during matches unless I really needed to step in because our driver and coach were arguing a minute into the match.

popnbrown 29-04-2014 16:59

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hrench (Post 1380489)
Any jobs we do are ones that they don't get to learn from.

This is the only thing I cannot confidently disagree with. I'm not positive if our student coach learned anything from the way I acted. He did understand his mistakes and his eagerness to defend 254, 624 and other teams to "show off" rather than playing to our strategy. Whether or not that will stay with him, we'll see.

CaptainDanger 29-04-2014 17:07

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AFron10 (Post 1379739)
This past weekend at championships I had the opportunity to stand on the field level and be right near the drive teams. Personally our team uses a student coach. As I watched divisional elimination matches I noticed some terrible things. For one of the matches there were 5 seconds left and a human player wasn't paying attention and then forgot to put the ball in play. All of the sudden the adult coach from there alliance (who was on a different team but on the same alliance) ran over and started to yell at the human player and included multiple inappropriate words directed to the student. The student already felt bad enough about it and the adult coach yelling at him didn't help at all. Their alliance won that match so he cooled down. I just think that the drive team should be only students so they can discuss things together on a peer to peer level.

Completely agreed, I believe student coaches are better because they can relate to their drive team and other drive teams on the same level. Speaking from experience, I was our team's human player this year and at world champs, one of the adult drive coaches on our alliance came up to me and asked if I'd ever human playered before. I was shocked and when I said yes, I've been our HP at both our regionals, he asked if I was sure I knew how to do it properly, and if I was confident in my abilities because I'm only 5'0". He then proceeded to tell me in a voice I would use on a five year old, 'See, you don't touch the ball until the pedastal is lit up' and demonstrated how to take the ball of the pedastal. It was a little hurtful and I don't think it's fair for any adults to speak to students like that.

That being said, I understand that not all mentors are like that, so if you have mentors that can relate to students, then they make awesome drive coaches too :) It all comes down to the idea that yes the drive coach is the leader of the drive team, but they shouldn't abuse their authority, whether they're a mentor or a student.

BigRickT 29-04-2014 19:20

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Although I could see the case where a student coach would be an acceptable solution. The majority of the time, having an adult mentor on the field is a better choice. When I coached in the past, my role was to make sure the drive team was focused and had their emotions in check. Sounds easy, but it is not.

belle94 30-04-2014 00:48

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRickT (Post 1380695)
Although I could see the case where a student coach would be an acceptable solution. The majority of the time, having an adult mentor on the field is a better choice. When I coached in the past, my role was to make sure the drive team was focused and had their emotions in check. Sounds easy, but it is not.

I agree that it isn't easy, but I don't think that you can make such sweeping generalisations about one choice being better than the other. We have always had a student coach, and at least in my time, our coaches have been great. Like others have said, they have to understand the rules, be able to make quick decisions, be able to keep their cool under pressure, etc, and this is what we take into consideration when choosing a coach. I drove my senior year and our coach that year was fantastic. I truly believe that she was the best person for the role of anyone on the team, mentors or students. She knew the rules and knew what we had to do in any given match. She was able to stand up for us if she believed we weren't being heard. She stayed calm and communicated effectively with our operator and me on and off the field. She kept her eyes on the field as a whole so that I could stay focused on our robot.

Our aforementioned drive coach was in that role for two years, and she was better than some coaches I saw that had five, ten, and more years of experience. As many others have said, it's not about how old the coach is or how experienced they are. It's about how well the person can do the job.

waialua359 30-04-2014 02:20

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman (Post 1380387)
From a pre-match perspective, I try to ask our alliance partners what they can do and what strategy they would like to run. 95% of the time, it's exactly what we want to do anyways. The other 5% we need to have a discussion on how to comprimise on the differences. I hope to not come off as a jerk during strategy discussions. But, we will call out a team that is lying about their capabilities.

Adam,
thanks for saying this.
Its what many mentors who are drive coaches feel who have done it for a long time.

Teams need to be honest about their capabilities. Be realistic. The frustration lies when people claim they can do things and absolutely cannot.

I would think that every alliance in every match wants to maximize their capabilities. Its starts by telling the truth.
The data doesnt lie.

Tinmint1 30-04-2014 09:43

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I don't see a problem either way with a student or mentor coach but...

At one of our district events we picked a team based on someone else's data. when we tried to talk strategy, their student drive coach started speaking down to two adult mentors, one was ours the other was our first pick and we respected. I think that when it comes to strategy, especially in eliminations, an adult mentor should be there to at least keep the students under control. The student drive coach left a rather sour taste in our mouths about the team. Along with other teams who saw the conversation go on.

I understand the experience it gives students but if they are going to coach they need to know how to speak to adults coaches on other teams in a respectable manner.

who716 30-04-2014 09:53

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Team 716 has had a wide array of coaches for our team, in 2012 it was all student based, but we assured our self's that we knew the rules before we went out to the field, in 2013 the coach was our lead mentor. and in 2014 it was a previous student who was on drive team. I believe the coach position should be for who ever understand the game the best, and have the ability to make quick changes.

wesbass23 30-04-2014 13:38

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hrench (Post 1380489)

I just looked up 'mentor'--"an experienced and trusted advisor" An advisor just helps with his advice.

Is that not also a definition for coach? The coach does not touch the robot or the controls (except for maybe aiding in carrying it on or off the field), so in the end it is the students who are in control.

AdamHeard 30-04-2014 13:46

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1380857)
Adam,
thanks for saying this.
Its what many mentors who are drive coaches feel who have done it for a long time.

Teams need to be honest about their capabilities. Be realistic. The frustration lies when people claim they can do things and absolutely cannot.

I would think that every alliance in every match wants to maximize their capabilities. Its starts by telling the truth.
The data doesnt lie.

Especially at regionals, we generally come the most prepared to the pre-match discussion (I get good scouting data, plus the scouts discuss and pass along an ideal plan to me). Also, since we're usually in contention for top 8, we're usually one of the few teams in the match (later in the days) that still are truly affected by win/loss.

However, even with that being said. I ALWAYS (barring a huge time crunch) ask the other teams what they would like to do to start the conversation. More often than not, they are pretty much in agreement, and we just elaborate on that and make a more formal plan.

From there, if there are disagreements. I explain my point of view (often many teams didn't initially understand the importance of assists this year for example) and their eyes usually light up and they go "OH!" and learn something new, and generally agree with us.

Rarely do we truly have a conflict down there, and we try to resolve it as best as possible. I will never FORCE a team do anything (not that I could), as a team that has a bad attitude about a plan will often not follow it. And I'd rather know pre-match they are doing their own thing, versus having it all fall apart during the match. Sometimes I will explain to teams that them showing off a feature versus playing smart to win the match is WORSE in terms of getting picked in most games, but I generally try to avoid getting down this route as often the argument is too far gone and no consensus can be reached.

I always end with asking if everyone is both happy and comfortable with the plan. I want it to be a discussion that leads to a consensus decision.

Even with all that, I still get complaints and compliments in cases where I wouldn't expect them. Times when it seems like everyone agrees and is happy, I'll get a complain that I "talked too much", when I was really just leading the discussion and everyone was included. Some of the times I walk away from a match where we had some tense discussion and I know no one felt good about it, and I'll get feedback that my honesty and thoroughness was appreciated, even if we disagreed.

Michael Corsetto 30-04-2014 14:10

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1380996)
Especially at regionals, we generally come the most prepared to the pre-match discussion (I get good scouting data, plus the scouts discuss and pass along an ideal plan to me). Also, since we're usually in contention for top 8, we're usually one of the few teams in the match (later in the days) that still are truly affected by win/loss.

However, even with that being said. I ALWAYS (barring a huge time crunch) ask the other teams what they would like to do to start the conversation. More often than not, they are pretty much in agreement, and we just elaborate on that and make a more formal plan.

From there, if there are disagreements. I explain my point of view (often many teams didn't initially understand the importance of assists this year for example) and their eyes usually light up and they go "OH!" and learn something new, and generally agree with us.

Rarely do we truly have a conflict down there, and we try to resolve it as best as possible. I will never FORCE a team do anything (not that I could), as a team that has a bad attitude about a plan will often not follow it. And I'd rather know pre-match they are doing their own thing, versus having it all fall apart during the match. Sometimes I will explain to teams that them showing off a feature versus playing smart to win the match is WORSE in terms of getting picked in most games, but I generally try to avoid getting down this route as often the argument is too far gone and no consensus can be reached.

I always end with asking if everyone is both happy and comfortable with the plan. I want it to be a discussion that leads to a consensus decision.

Even with all that, I still get complaints and compliments in cases where I wouldn't expect them. Times when it seems like everyone agrees and is happy, I'll get a complain that I "talked too much", when I was really just leading the discussion and everyone was included. Some of the times I walk away from a match where we had some tense discussion and I know no one felt good about it, and I'll get feedback that my honesty and thoroughness was appreciated, even if we disagreed.

All of this is spot on.

Coaches (either students or mentors) could learn a lot from following the methods Adam just outlined. I follow a very similar, if not identical, model for coaching.

I'll add a few things. As much as I love the robots, this competition is about inspiring STUDENTS. I believe students are not only inspired by robots but by relating with older scientists and engineers.

To facilitate relationships, I am very intentional about asking students and coaches their names. Knowing a name is powerful tool. It breaks down barriers, communicates appreciation and interest, and gives people a sense of belonging.

Also, find ways to compliment each team's robot. Especially as a coach of a high performing team, finding features to praise about a teams machine will mean the world to those students.

-Mike

Pjtruslow 30-04-2014 14:16

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
I do FTC, and we absolutely never have adult coaches. our coaches are great with using tools or helping make things when complex equipment is being used, but our students are the ones who spend months focusing on the game, know their robot like the back of their hand, and can properly strategize. we usually pick a student who has the confidence to lead the team and wouldn't be ignored by the alliance partners.

debbiemusselman 30-04-2014 16:08

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
For team 708, we have an adult coach who is also our programming mentor. This is important because you need to have at least one person out on the field that understands what is going on with the code and having the programming mentor helps a lot when your are trying to figure out what is going wrong on the field. He makes sure that it is the students on the drive team talking strategy with our alliance partners and will only step in when he needs to and will talk to all three drive teams once we are in que to make sure that we all know what our strategy is.
Personally, I enjoy having an adult coach on the field, not only for their experience, but because of what they can teach you just by being around them. I have been on the drive team for 2 years now and have gotten to know our coach really well and it helps to have the same person out there from year to year because they know what is going on and they don't get as stressed out because they are used to the environment. It also helps to have an adult mentor because they can help you keep you under control when you get frustrated about something that happened in a match, whereas a student coach might not know how to react.

TrentHasAHammer 28-05-2014 11:25

Re: On field Coach - Student or Adult
 
We use a student but in the past have used a mentor as coach and i must say a mentor typically does better but you really need to be careful if you use a mentor because in my experience as a human player i find mentor coaches can often come across as being verbally "abusive" when they truly are not i just seems so because they are a figure of experience and authority. However Regardless of who is telling you what to do if you know that they are wrong follow your instincts and if necessary just say to them "I know what I'm doing Do you?" that is what i say and it goes over well most of the time and i have even had a coach say to me after a match that i was right and what i said gave him a reality check


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