Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Is there a breakdown of the types of 2014 Einstein drivetrains (6 wheel center drop, mecanum, etc) and how this year compares with previous years?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I know Mecanums were on Einstein for the first time this year. Only on a collector, not a drive base ;)

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

For the past two years there has been one butterfly on Einstein: 2014 - 1477, 2013 - 148.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Curie
254: 6 CIM 6WD
469: 6 CIM 8WD
2848: 6 CIM 6WD

Galileo
67: 6 CIM 8WD
973: 6 CIM 6WD
2481: Swerve

Newton
1114: 4 CIM 6WD
1640: 4 CIM Swerve
1678: 6 CIM 6WD

Archimedes
1477: 4 CIM Butterfly
1625: 6 CIM 4WD
2590: 4 CIM 8WD

Backups
3467: 6 CIM 6WD
2363: 4 CIM 6WD
5136: Looks like KOP chassis 6WD.
74: 4 CIM 6WD

All this data taken from the pre scouting sheets.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Thought 1625 was butterfly? It looked like they did some fancy spin moves that weren't possible with traction wheels.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

So, not even octocanum? This is worse than the Curie Curse! :D

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

2 Traction, 2 Omni, if I remember correctly. Saw some awesome used omnis off their bot at Midwest with rollers that were basically triangles from all the pushing and shoving on the field.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I thought so too, compliments to their driver, I guess...

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Those spins were amazing. Does anyone know if they were one-speed or two-speed?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Yep, 2 VEX Pro traction wheels in the back and 2 VEX Pro omni wheels in the front. I'm pretty sure they've got some pretty worn down traction wheels as well.

6 CIM single speed

Their driver is the same one they had last year when they had Butterfly, and a lot of the maneuvers he used with Butterfly carried over to the tank drive they ran this year. Their driver certainly knows his stuff, and to think he's just a junior....

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

No kidding, the entire drive team was pretty much on point every match...I wish I could be that good...

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Currently there is a high concentration of WCD, but I expect that to change in a few years. The higher concentration of butterfly and swerve designs will eventually create a new design that will overtake like WCD did.
WCD was not used much in the early years either.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Remember that 6WD does not automatically mean WCD. The KOP is a 6WD, but it is definitely not a WCD. If I were to take a guess, and at minimum count a WCD as a Cantilevered Live Axle drive, the percentage is most likely fairly similar to Swerves, and both are most likely more common then butterfly's. The teams that make good WCD's will most likely continue, because they know how to make them well, same as the teams that commonly build good swerves will most likely continue because thats what they are good at. The teams in the middle will be the ones that will switch back and forth between new drive types.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Of the teams that played on Einstein this year it would appear that there were 3 or 4 true west coast drives by Thad House's definition (254, 973, 1678?, 2590), 2 swerves (1640, 2481), and 2 butterfly-esk drive trains (1477, 1625), so there were about the same number of 'cutting edge'/'out there' drives (for lack of better terms) as west coasts. However, as far as drop center drives go, there's not a significant difference in performance from a west coast style to a kit bot style drop center, so in those terms the drop centers (67, 254, 469, 973, 1114, 1678, 2590, 2824) far out number the non drop centers (1477, 1625, 1640, 2481).

That said, I could definitely see the drive train landscape change to a more butterfly-oriented field say 3, 4, 5 years out, and it would not surprise me if it's more than just the "teams in the middle" making the change. Just look at a team like 33 or 1732. Two well respected teams that end up in the finals at their events more times than not that put out good drop centers on a year to year basis that switched to butterfly-esk drive trains this year. Either way it's definitely something to be tracking on in the near future.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Just a fact check point 33 did single speed Omni this year, not butterfly like many people thought.

But speaking of "cutting edge" drives, I have an entire folder of pictures of your teams drive this year, absolutely beautiful.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Jim calls it a Butterfly so a Butterfly it is.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Really? I was under the impression this was a butterfly drive...

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Killer bee joke. Its also a part of BJCs signature: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=36413

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

So from the general conversation, I am guessing that most if not all of the drivetrains had a dropped center. If so, can anyone give me some idea how much to drop the center. On the KITBOT we used I believe all the wheels touched?:confused:

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

In general, 1/8" - 3/16" are very common drops. Unless you're doing anything fancy, I'd lean towards the 1/8" side. Whenever I design using blue nitrile tread on traction wheels, I go 5/32" due to the extra grip from the blue nitrile. If you're doing pneumatic wheels, then 3/16 is one of the most common solutions. Anything else is 1/8 and you're fine.

*Note other people may have other preferences. This is just the general idea I've gotten from talking to many people about their drivetrain preferences and it seems to be the most commonly accepted one.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Not sure I buy a trend towards swerve or "butterfly" or octocanum or h-drive or anything else on Einstein. Swerve drives aren't new. They've been around for more than a decade in FRC. While they are often overrepresented on Einstein compared to their general FRC population, they're not an overwhelming presence (2 on Einstein seems about historically normal). The largest population of drivetrain in FRC, even among elite competitors, has remained tank drives and I expect that to continue. Even the best teams often favor the advantages in the trade-off of going for a tank drive. What they lose in functionality, they gain back in resources (weight, space, cost, machine time, programming time, driver training time) they can dedicate to other areas. There's a reason you see teams like 118 using tank drives now, instead of the swerve systems they were famous for in the mid/late-2000s.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

The AM14U provided as the KOP drivetrain this year had .140" of drop in the center wheels in both long and square configurations. In a wide configuration, it had no drop.

-Nick

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Most teams use anywhere from 1/8-3/16 for 6wd & 8wd robots. Sometimes how much drop you use can be influenced by your wheel choice. For example a 4in Versa wheel from Vex has a "W" like tread pattern that will dig into the carpet fibers while a flat surfaced Colson wheel will not. Last year we used the Versa wheels and needed 3/16in of drop in the long configuration to get a decent turn while this year we used Colsons with 1/8in drop that turned like a dream. We noticed our issue last year when we put the robot on the field and noticed all 6 wheels were touching the carpet.

Depending on what wheels you use you can adjust the drop slightly. What I love about Colson wheels is you can trim them down by shaving down the OD of the wheel. Our drivebase this year was originally designed without a drop (doh!!) in a wide configuration and it turned similar to last year's long drivebase with 3/16in drop. We shaved down the other wheels by 1/16in to achieve the 1/8in drop and it works great.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I wouldn't really consider 1625's 4 wheel tank drive with omnis on the front a 'butterfly-esk' drive. It is far more similar to a tank drive, in my opinion.

I think the biggest take away from that list is 8 6 CIM tank drives compared to 4 4 CIM tank drives. 2 to 1 ratio is pretty significant and very new.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Wouldn't having wheels with different ODs make the center and outside wheels have different speeds? Or is it negligible due to the small change? Also, by shaving 1/16" off wouldn't that be a 1/16" drop?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Because of the slight change in OD you won't notice much of a difference. IIRC this is how 233 has dropped their tank drives by just machining slightly smaller wheels.

Depends on how you look at the drop. Because we took 1/16th off of both ends and the robot is weighted towards the back there is 1/8in of clearance between one set of wheels and the floor. Another way people look at it is by how much lower the middle wheel is in relation to the other wheels. I've heard it explained both ways.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Ahh ok. I haven't heard of the first way.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I'll be home in a couple days and I will try to grab some pictures of what I call our "Bullet Omnis" They are ridiculously triangular and its hilarious.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

We can clear this up easily. 4 omni wheels can be called butterfly, to keep the Bees happy and the 148 style drive train can be called Tex Coast Drive like it should be*.

*For those wondering, I'm going to keep depending it be called Tex Coast Drive for the foreseeable future, so you should probably just get on board.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Here is a picture of the drivetrain 2363 used this season. It is 6WD drop center live axle.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I just think it's weird that the first drivetrain called butterfly was an articulated traction / omni combination... Then the term enters (vaguely) popular use to refer to the other kinds of articulated drives in 2012-2014... But now we're changing it because of one team? If all omni was always the intended meaning of butterfly and a traction mode was always an "extra", then I probably have been misunderstanding the term the whole time.

I can see the challenge of picking a different name for it though. "Omni drive" implies holonomic capability. Perhaps "omni wheel tank" would be more descriptive? Doesn't exactly bounce off the tongue.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

It's my understanding the original name was given because of the omni only portion of the drive, hence the "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" phrase. The omni wheels being the "butterfly" and the traction wheels being the "bee". It became a short hand for the entire articulated drive base but it makes more sense to refer to only the omni portion as "butterfly" since it's the part that is doing the "floating".

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I don't think you're misunderstanding it at all. Texas basically thinks it's its own country, so they can have their own regional name for a drive train too :P

It's like pop versus soda versus cola-- they're the same thing, but different regions call it different things. Texas can call it Tex-Coast drive all they want, but Neutrino introduced me to butterfly drive, so I'll call it that. It doesn't really matter-- we're still referring to an articulated omni and traction wheel drive train.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

JVN posted why they called it butterfly here.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=15

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Are you implying we're not our own country?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I make no comment as to the statehood or lack thereof of Texas. :D

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

On our 6w tank we have used 1/16" drop center the past 2 years.

That is, the center wheel is 1/16" below the line you draw between the two outer axles, so at any one time, one wheel is 1/8" off the ground. The low drop makes the robot much less wobblier and has no negative effect. We are happy.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I'm 1625's base driver, and were running a 6 CIM drive with a 16fps free speed (so about 14fps friction speed). Single speed no fancy shifters or anything d: we have 2 DT vex pro 4 inch wheels on the back and 2 Vex pro omnis on the front. I drove a butterfly drive and had a lot of fun doing fancy spins and learned how to control the squirlyness of the drive which helped this year. It helps to get around defense very easily. Thank you everybody for the words of encouragement (: if any more questions pop up feel free to message me!:)

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Don't go changing drivetrain names because of us. :] Butterfly will always have drop down omnis to me.

My signature has been the same for a number of years. I've been calling our drivetrain this year "4 Omni Wheels" which I think has a certain honest ring to it.

If I had to change it though, it would be "Greased Pig Drive" which is what our team compared it to throughout the season. You can push it around but you can't pin it down.

Cheers, Bryan

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I've played a lot of defense and I never thought an all 4 omni drive would be so hard to stay on! You guys really made finals on Archimedes interesting:rolleyes: kudos for driving it like you stole it!

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I'm a junior as well as our AUX driver and our human player is a sophomore so well be together next year as well!:D

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Is there any historical data for this subject (Einstein Drivetrains)? I'd be interested to see how many non-tank style drives have made it to Einstein in the past.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

+1. I would like to know this as well.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

1678 ran with a 0.090 drop center and 6 cim WCD with high gear of 22fps(20 attainable) and 8 fps low gear.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

I really think that "butterfly" is a better name for these actuating drives. It gives a better idea of the characteristics of the drive in that it suggests quick fluttering movement. I know the original reason for naming it "butterfly" has nothing to do with that, but it works regardless.

In addition to that, "Tex Coast" makes it sound like some kind of variation on West Coast which it most certainly isn't. KOP drop center and WCD are similar in comparison to actuating drives and it follows that actuating drives should have a distinct name. Honestly I think that an actuating drive with Mechanums should also be under the class of "Butterfly" simply for nominal organization purposes. It is very convenient and efficient to refer to all actuating drives with one name and then further qualify them with what kind of wheels are in there. "Octocanum" is incredibly misleading.

Sorry to derail the thread, all these different names makes it very difficult for someone curious about different designs to actually learn about them.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

As best as I can recall

Swerve drives on Einstein:
16 (2008, 2012)
67 (2005)
71 (2007)
111 (2003, 2009)
148 (2008)
1625 (2010)
1640 (2013, 2014)
2481 (2014)


File-card drive on Einstein:
71 (2002)

Drivetrains with drop-down wheel sets ("slide," "butterfly," etc.)
51 (2011)
148 (2013)
175?? (They have used these in the past, not sure if they did between 2003-2005)

Skid steer (tank) drives on Einstein:
Everyone else

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Why can't people just let Texas do its own thing.....

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

My personal Favorite -

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

What is file card drive?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

File card drive. In all its glory.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Ahh yes I remember hearing about that. Great idea.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

Here's a list of championships winners' drivetrains from the beginning of time. (Taken mostly from this thread, in particular Jared Russell's post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77412 )

I'm on my way to lunch and I don't particularly have time to fill in 2012 through 2014 (and I don't know some of the newer ones since I haven't really been on a team in a few years), but I'm sure it can be done quickly by the people in the CD community. Please also correct any inaccuracies.

2014
254 -
469 -
2848 -
74 -

2013
1477 -
619 -
1241 -

2012
16 -
180 -
25 -

2011
254 - 6 WD long
111 - 6 WD long
973 -6 WD long

2010
67 – 8 WD long
177 – 8 WD long (articulated is sets of two, front and back)
294 - 6WD long

2009
67 - 6WD wide
111 - 4 wheel crab (non-coaxial), wide
971 - 6WD wide

2008
1114 - 6WD long
217 - 6WD long
148 - three-wheeled crab (coaxial), nonagon-shaped robot

2007
177 - 6WD long
987 - 6WD long
190 - 6WD long

2006
217 - 6WD long
522 - Treads, long
296 - 2WD long, Omnis in front

2005
67 - three-wheeled crab (non-coaxial). Flop bot.
330 - 6WD long
503 – 4WD long, omniwheels in rear


2004
71 - 4WD long
494 - 4WD long
435 - 2WD long, with casters in front

2003
111 - Four-wheeled non-coaxial crab (with dropdown skid for turning)
469 – 4WD Long
65 - 4WD Wide

2002
71 - 4WD flop bot with casters in front
173 - 4WD long
66 – 4WD long

2001
71 - ?
294 - ?
125 - ?
365 - ?
279 - ?

2000
255 - ?
232 - ?
25 - ?

1999
176 - 4WD long w/ Omnis in front
1 - tank treads, long
48 – 4WD, long

1998
45 – 4WD long with Omnis in front.

1997
71 - ?

1996
73 - ?

1995
100 - ?

1994
144 - ?

1993
148 - ?

1992
126 - ?

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

That's not even remotely representative of how they actually used that drivetrain in competition. The factor that set it apart was the file cards on the "front" of the flop bot, that they used to "walk" downfield (once they acquired the goals) to give them incredible traction and pushing power, at the expense of the ability to steer their robot.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

1126 had 4wd, with 12" omni's on the front in 2004. According to shaun on 25, the only omni wheeled robot to go undefeated at the division level and hit einstein.

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

2014
254 - 6WD Square
469 - Looked like 6WD square, unconfirmed
2848 - 6WD Square
74 - ???

2013
1477 - 6WD slightly long
610 - 6WD Square
1241 - 6WD Square

2012
16 - Swerve
180 - 6WD wide
25 - 6WD long

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

74 is 4 CIM 6wd wide

Re: Einstein Drivetrains?
 

469 was 8WD square (or close to it) with 6 CIMs.