Re: A Request
 

Being from a high school FTC team that's been in existence for the past 4 years and just finished their rookie FRC season, this is a topic we've greatly discussed between our team (and yes, I say the singular team because everybody on the FTC team considers themselves just as much a part of the FRC team).

I think we pretty much agreed the core "divide" between the programs that causes the whole looking-down-on-FTC is that FTC isn't just about the materialistic component of the robot and heat of the competition that FRC is so widely known for. FTC delves into, and praises, multiple other factors that FIRST is striving to showcase from its progression of programs, like holding an accountable engineering notebooks and Chairman's like interviews for normal judging just to name a few. FRC is a lot more mentor based, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, but in comparison to FTC, it just has a lot more involvement from multiple other people whereas FTC seems more student based and coerced.
It's just that FTC has been so downplayed by FRC teams, it's just one more thing an FRC team can do for community outreach, but it's not. It's not just a subset of FRC, a less hyped "petty competition" that only middle schoolers seemingly participate in.
When we got the overwhelming experience of being able to compete in the FIRST World Championship this year (as an FRC team), we were so excited because we'd get to see FTC compete and other FTC teams we've seen before at regional and qualifying tournaments. And honestly, when we sat down to see FTC finals play out on the Edison (or was it Franklin? I don't remember :() field, we were so disappointed because it seemed so small and pathetic compared to the loud spirit coming from FRC division qualifying matches. It was basically the Einstein's of FTC, and all that happened was a little bit of clapping before it was just shoved off to the side again from louder MC's elsewhere.
It makes all of us pretty sad when we realize how much smaller and less FTC is in comparison to FRC, because to us, FTC is still pretty freaking great. And it must seem that way to every single other FTC member too.
Like I don't know about anybody else, but winning the Inspire award? That memory itself may overshadow the fact that we were a part of the winning alliance of the FRC LA regional our rookie season.
I don't know. I'm sorry. I got ranty. I'm just really passionate about this subject, and in all honesty, I don't know what to do about it either. I'm torn between the feeling like I have to choose between FTC and FRC, and what sucks is that I love both of them so, so much. It sucks.

#my2cents

Re: A Request
 

Yeah, but the AM14U is pretty much a lego set, with instructions. :rolleyes: And it's pre-built with all kinds of things already accounted for (Drop center, belt center-to-center spacing, gearbox integration, etc.) and so students don't get to learn about the importance and relevance of all those things.

But anyway, I totally agree with you, neither is better or worse or simpler or tougher than the other, they're just plain different.

Re: A Request
 

I'll be blunt and straight to the point. I do not care for FTC and I have no interest in FTC.
My main issue is the inconsistent lack of information about events and teams. FRC is excellent about having information about FRC teams and event. Any information I want is easily accessible. Results. Awards. History. It's all there. Any time I try to look up information on FTC I cannot find it or it's minimal. They have gotten better at it but nearly the level I expect from an organization like FIRST. In my opinion FTC is a lesser event. It is nowhere near as well organized as FRC and until things change I will not dedicate a moment of interest towards it.

Re: A Request
 

But FIRST as an organization began back in 1989. It takes alot of planning to organize such an undertaking.

Re: A Request
 

????

Re: A Request
 

I'm trying to understand why the lack of information on team history makes FTC inferior. Events are actually listed fairly accurately on the FIRST website. One of the main reasons that it is harder to find the information is because FTC events are not on the scale of an FRC regional; instead, there are more events, each with its own organizers and flavor. As a result of the smaller scope of each event, FIRST is less directly involved in each one, and it is up to the event organizers, in large part, to ensure that team performance information is preserved. The events are actually orgainzed, in general, very well by the tournament organizers; the main difference with FRC is that organizing events does not begin at the top in Manchester. This year, a move towards making this information accessible has begun with TheYellowAlliance.net, which should grow in the coming years. [/RANT]

Disclaimer: I am a proud FTC participant who has traveled to the World Championships for 4 years; however, I am also very familiar with FRC through ChiefDelphi.

Re: A Request
 

Information about the event and teams is important to the public perception of the program. FRC is very thorough with information about statistics at the event. Match results. Information about how much the teams have scored and how they scored it and links to teams websites. I ave found no such thing for FTC or their teams. If you can't be forthcoming about who you guys are and what you do why should I care? I need more than some impassioned plea on a messageboard.

Re: A Request
 

I suppose I would be one of those people you are asking to stop looking down on FTC, so I feel like I should explain why I do. I would not say FTC is necessarily inferior to FRC, it does have its strengths. FTC teams are far cheaper for a high school to fund, and make it much more feasible for FIRST to reach its goal of a FIRST team in every school. Coming from a high school in Iowa, almost every 4A school in our area had at least 1 FTC team, while Iowa still only has 6 FRC teams in the entire state.

That being said however, FTC is not as exciting, from an outsiders perspective, as FRC. I know that for those of you who compete, its extremely exciting, but even up close, the robots are just slower, the field is smaller, and once you get to the Edward Jones dome, and people look down on this tiny field you can hardly see, they will start to wonder about that huge field over there where everyone is cheering.

If our goal is to inspire broader acceptance and interest in STEM beyond people in FIRST, if we want a FIRST event on national TV, it will be an FRC event, because FRC is and will be for the foreseeable future, the flagship FIRST program. I'm not saying you can't learn a lot doing FTC, I'm not saying you can't be an amazing engineer after being on an FTC team, but if we want to hook people outside FIRST, we will do it with FRC, not FTC. Thats why I see it as "FRC-Lite".

Re: A Request
 

I was lead que at the Hudson Valley FTC event. It was a cute little event but honestly it felt more like a start up FRC off season event than an official FIRST qualifier. I was expecting more.

Re: A Request
 

We couldn't get inside them, but there were no ramps that we saw. You can BARELY fit 64 teams inside a basketball stadium (Source: FTC North Super Regional). How are you going to fit 128 teams PLUS Jr. FLL (which isn't big but still) in Union Station?

For me at least, when it comes down to it, I don't so much look down on FTC for the structure of the program from what the teams do. I think it's a great and needed program. For me, I have never been impressed with how it's competitions have been organized. One of FRC's strengths is there's strict standards to how events are ran.(Blair always tells us the idea is that your supposed to get the same experience no matter where you are). In FTC, there's clearly no standards to that level, and I've heard stories of affiliate partners making things happen at events that would not even remotely fly at an FRC event. I feel like a lot of FRC feels the same way, as we're used to having those quality standards, and that's why we look down on FTC. If FTC really wants to get out of FRC's shadow, there needs to be higher controlled standards on it's qualifying events. I hope this happens, FTC teams deserve to have the same quality experience at events FRC teams have.

Re: A Request
 

The workable floor of the Carver Hawkeye Arena is probably in the neighborhood of 6000 square feet (regulation hardwood is 4700, plus space from bleachers being moved). The meeting area at the Union Station Hotel is 100,000 contiguous square feet ("ballrooms" according to the website) plus an extra 43000 square feet in advertised flex space.

Am I missing something?

Re: A Request
 

FRC teams pay about $4000-$5000 to attend a regional event. FTC teams pay about $100-$300 for an event. Just based on this fee structure, it would be impossible to expect the same quality of experience at events from both programs. Expecting FTC events to magically run like events with operating budgets of $50k-$200k is just unfair. FTC is a program that is far more affordable and accessible than FRC, and does a heck of a job of teaching and inspiring students. Sure the robots are smaller and the events lack the production values of FRC, but it's still a great vehicle towards working towards achieving a significant culture change.

*Full disclosure: I work for a company that runs similarly scaled robotics competitions to FTC, so I'm naturally sympathetic to their plight.

Re: A Request
 

This right here. As South Carolina's affilate partner for FTC this statement is 100% ACCURATE. We as partners can't scale our events up to the level of FRC because of the lack of funding we get from team registration. All funding to increase the quality of the event comes from the corporate or otherwise funding that I as the partner can solicit.

I don't think FTC teams need to be payying $5000 an event either.

Re: A Request
 

Remember that The Blue Allicance is a third-party, not an official part of the FRC program. And FTC is getting better at this with the newly-created Yellow Alliance.

I think you'll find that FTC teams are very "forthcoming" about who they are and what they do, just as any FRC team would be. But FTC competitions are just generally less of a spectator sport (At least for now). Why does everything have to be defined by how accessible the match results are? I don't see the letters "MR" anywhere in "FIRST"