Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I’ve never talked to Brandon Holley in person, but something that he said once has stuck with me lately. His custom user title reads “Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be”, which we should all strive to do.

Recently, it seems as though CD has been a hotbed of hostile quarrels. People have thrown respect for others out the window, and honestly it seems that some users are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Truthfully, I'm sick and tired of it. And, in some cases, it feels like it is the same people at the center of every negative thread.

Let’s discuss some things. Everyone has different opinions, and most of the time people stick to theirs. However, just because you may disagree with what another person thinks does NOT mean that they’re wrong, nor are you wrong. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. There’s no use in fighting with someone just to ‘win’, because you won’t. There’s nothing to win. Learn to respect the opinions of others, even if they are the complete opposite of yours. Some people might not agree with yours, either. If someone thinks that FTC and FRC should be thought of as equals while you think FRC is better than FTC, that’s fine. Those are your own opinions. Respect them and move on. Stop fighting about who is ‘right’.

For those of you who don’t know what respect is, here’s some Aretha Franklin for ya. You can find out what it means to me.

Also, there’s no use being nit-picky about the little details of every single post, nor is it worth it to rip on someone for not spelling everything perfectly. If someone states that FRC is about 25 years old, there is no reason to quote them and correct them by saying it is only exactly 23 years old. Chief Delphi is supposed to be a fun and constructive internet forum, for all of FIRST to enjoy. We’re not writing SAT essays here, nor are our posts the equivalent of a master’s thesis. If someone tries to post something helpful, yet misspells a few words here and there, we should be thanking them for their assistance, not putting them down since they used the wrong form of “they’re/their/there”. Everyone, yes, even you and me, makes mistakes here and there.

Almost everyone has been guilty of being a bit aggressive over the past few months, including myself. As Don Rotolo recently said, “We are all one big team, even though we are split into thousands of smaller teams.” I don’t care if you’re FRC, FTC, FLL, or even Jr. FLL. We’re all one big FIRST family. Yeah, families fight from time to time (trust me, as the youngest child with two older sisters, I’m well aware of that), but people should not be afraid to post here just because they are worried of getting yelled at and receiving a bad rep.

So, let’s all have a corndog and relax for a bit. Chief Delphi is supposed to be a place for people to ask for help, for others to give help, and for everyone to learn and have fun. I’m not perfect, you’re not perfect, no one is perfect. But before you post next, stop and think to yourself, “what would my grandma think if she saw me saying this?”. Or worse, sponsors? Let's not forget our gracious professionalism.

Thank you, Brandon Holley, for the consistent reminder of what this site is meant to accomplish: a welcoming community, where the members all support one another, and are understanding of the views of others. Now let's all work hard to achieve that again.

Darn, my soapbox broke...

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Thanks for posting this Ryan. It's painful to watch threads get derailed because of silly arguments. Glad to see other people feel the same way.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

It's also important to understand that CD is a public and searchable forum. My wife was looking up information about Jane Cosmetics, and one of the top Google responses was the CD thread.
She glanced through it, and commented to me, "That's a poor way to treat a sponsor."

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Thank you Hallry for this. CD is one of the few places on the internet where I can go and not see flame wars happening (though lately, that's been different). Hopefully we can work together to make it stay that way and make it a better place for us all to be.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I agree with what you have to say at least 99.98%—and I'm probably misinterpreting the other .02%. But I'd like to point out that while "arguing for the sake of arguing" is an absolutely futile and pointless exercise, and beyond that it's actively negative as far as interpersonal relationships—all of which you perfectly articulated—there is a large difference between arguing for the sake of arguing and having a constructive debate in which two parties offer their different beliefs. Chief Delphi is a *forum*—a place for various people to offer varied opinions on a variety of topics. And the important part is *offer* those opinions. If, to use your example, one person thought FTC was the equal of FRC and another person thought FRC was superior, there would be nothing wrong with the two presenting their points in a calm, clear, friendly fashion. That's why we have conversation in the first place. It's when things start becoming hostile, when personal insults are exchanged or people start claiming the other person is absolutely wrong and stupid for having their opinion, that debate turns into argument, and that's when it becomes a problem.

Oh by the way, it should be noted that this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: I'm being (as far as I know) civil, I'm offering up a series of thought-out points, and I'm not smashing down anyone's opinion. However, the fact that we may (or may not) have slightly differing viewpoints doesn't mean neither of us can talk about them.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hallry again."

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Adding on to this, a quick series of google searches of individuals on the message board result in THEIR Chief Delphi posts showing up on the first results page. Because I am blessed by my parents with an incomprehensible change in format of the name "Will" (instead of William, I'm a "Wilson") I for one show up A LOT so despite the very wide range of quality in my posts (from preachy to trolling) I do pay attention to what I say and delete some of the dumber stuff I've said before it gets locked in here forever.

If you don't believe me, google me, or maybe even yourself!

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

FRC is important, and it's complicated, and no one is entirely sure what it should look like (well, some people may be sure, but they're sure about entirely different things). Healthy debate is essential to figuring this out. Of course there's a line, and people need to watch out for it, and the admins here need to police it. But there are times when I see legitimate debate cut off because of an excessive fear of minor hostility, and that's never a good thing.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Well that was an excellent birthday post.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

This thread is so true. The insults though really need to stop NOW though. People have been publicly insulting other people, sometimes even anonymously. People have been insulting high level sponsors that provide millions of dollars to this program. I would bet that members of those companies, and the people being directly insulted are browsing this forum, seeing what is getting said about them, and thinking very hard about leaving because of what they see. This is not good for the growth of FIRST, and could have large negative impacts.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Really? He's been at a few events where I know you were, too. My advice: Find him. Good "kid"*
Yes, it does. :rolleyes:

OK, seriously: Ryan, CD has always had some bickering; what we are seeing today is just more of it. In the past, the 'trustees'** of CD would either PM, or negative rep, or outright ban someone who was practicing "Obnoxious Amateurism"***, or just a troublemaker.

Whats' changed is that we are seeing reduced involvement of the trustees. I am not trying to criticize Brandon Martus, but many in the CD community would be tickled pink to help him maintain decorum.

CD is not like other fora on the Interweb: We have a younger crowd here, and "Gracious" is a key word in our vocabulary. We can change it, but we need moderators who will do it and admins who believe it is the right way to run a forum.

Good post Ryan, thank you.

Don


*Kid to me, since I'm such an old fart. It's all relative.
**Mostly the forum moderators, but fewer and fewer are active these days. Possibly because the atmosphere is different.
***The opposite of Gracious Professionalism.

.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I know people that have never and probably will never post anything on Chief Delphi because of the nature of the community to correct everything. Fear is a powerful motivator.:ahh:

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

This.

I rarely posted as a student for fear of having the "wrong" opinion. As a student it can be quite intimidating to put your thoughts out for the scrutiny of the wider community. Side note, I would love to see what percentage of Chief Delphi posts are made by students vs mentors.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

One thing that I do as a mentor is take note of which of my students are posting on CD. I periodically search for their username to see what they are saying. I have been fortunate that none of them have posted anything out of line from what I've seen. One thing we as mentors can do is help police the forums ourselves. If you see your students posting things that your team would deem as not gracious professionalism then talk to them.

I also periodically search the other mentors on the team to see what they are posting.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Since the soap box is already out...In addition to the concerns Hallry brought up, I've been disappointed and frustrated with all the FIRST-hate earlier in the year. I'm not saying we all have to drink the kool-aid and praise FIRST every sentence, but when well-respected members of the community take every chance they get to criticize, take shots and and simply rant about FIRST, it sucks. Yes, there were some issues with the game and bad calls in some matches, but just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean you should go on CD, complain every post and ruin the experience for everyone else with constant negativity.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Maybe I just have a far different memory of the old CD than most...

It was far harsher than the CD I see now. I see a lot of folks complaining at people being too harsh or disagreeing with opinions. But none of that is new.

A quick waltz through some threads found several of these "trustees" saying some pretty nasty things. I'm not doing this to call them out, merely to point out that it's always been this way and that saying "Let's go back to the old days" is at best a pointless thing to say.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...?postid=280908 Jumping on someone for asserting that you don't need a degree to be an engineer.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...336#post649336 Refusing to argue with folks about subjects

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=40 Grammar Police

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...227#post211227 Put up or Shut up!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...804#post316804 Copious usage of sarcasm

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...415#post319415 Calling folks stupid


Why'd I pick these two? Well, because I recalled reading them and used Spotlight to find them. I could have found hundreds more threads but my coworkers were looking at me funny and wondering why I was giggling. Now, you could argue that I cherry picked my threads, you're right. I could also argue that the counterpoint would use cherry picked threads.

So, what am I saying here? The issue of being rude to each other has always been there. We need to work on it (heaven knows I need to sometimes not be such a... let's just say punk). But the big thing we're missing is that so many of the folks that made CD a great resource? They've stopped posting. And I get that, life gets in the way. The community is a lot darker without folks like Ken Patton, Andy Baker, Paul Copoili, Mike Martus, Dr Joe, and their ilk sharing their insights. Why? Because they were folks who, while having massive engineering chops, were also passionate about sharing that knowledge.

Want to bring CD back to how it was? Bring back solid technical discussion.

Designing a drivetrain? Post your calculations along with the CAD. Explain to me what variables went into your drivetrain this year and why you chose a 3CIM ball shifter? And I mean, more than, well, 3 CIMs for MOAR POWAH and Shifter for MOAR SPEED! What variables were you trying to optimize? How did you compute that?

Get rid of the BS political handwringing - Who the hell CARES if a company uses the patent system to make a profit? Take their money, say thank you, and then be inspired to go fix the patent system. Want more women in FIRST? Don't harass me about how my friends aren't diverse enough, help me recruit more women to STEM.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

On the other hand, I am never afraid to post on CD if I'm pretty sure I'm correct, because if I'm wrong, I'll be corrected within minutes by a more well-established member. I have learned quite a bit this way, and will probably be learning like this to at least some degree until I die.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

It is part of the nature of engineers to improve upon systems, in a general sense. It should thus be desirable to improve upon the system known as Chief Delphi, rectifying its weaknesses and developing its strengths. While it is possible, even evident, that this forum has been just as hostile in the past, as a community we should not feel justified in maintaining an undesirable environment. The CD community is ultimately responsible for the contents of its own forum, and thus should take ownership, as a community, for how it will operate in the future.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

You can't go back, only forward. (Entropy, heat death, etc...)

The internet has been developing as long as FIRST. The internet is a Tower of Babel, reflecting the ease and diversity of the opinions of the hoi polloi. Do you want freedom or not? Would you prefer a lockstep monoculture?

I don't find that the commentary here is any worse for wear than it was in the past. We have always had our "pilot light" wars.
I find that the posts responding to contrary ideas and correcting each other to be forthright.

Many of us are engineers or have those proclivities. We always see a construction and think, "That's nice, but it could be better.", or, "I concur.", or "Are you crazy?" So we respond.

Let's move forward whilst maintaining our graciousness.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

On a less controversial side of things, I like that I haven't seen full-on spam threads on CD for a while. Please, let us not go back there... :rolleyes:

IMO, compared to much of the Internet as a whole, CD can be a rather more civil place than most. I'm reminded a bit by a quote (that I think might be from Woodie Flowers, and I'm paraphrasing) is that one of the biggest problems in life are those things that we know, that just aren't so. Be willing to take criticism, know when you're wrong, and give criticism where it is due (without jumping into a pot of boiling anger).

As long as CD remains a civil discourse, a resource for sharing, thanking, and working through problems, things will be okay.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Don, I agree wholeheartedly. It's not something that could be fixed in a day, but over time I think it could be brought back at least to the same level of politeness.

I know that one of the major complaints I've seen from long-time members is simply the drastic drop off in signal-to-noise. It used to be (a decade ago) that a large majority of the posts had worthwhile content. Now you get just as many "me too", meme, or fluff posts that don't have any useful or original content. I don't know any solution short of taking a far more strict standpoint on what type of posts are allowed in forums outside the social ones.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

In high school my friends and I used to joke that we would be able to better present ourselves to colleges and scholarships committees due to the fact that we spent so much time on Chief Delphi. We were ripped apart so often for poor spelling and grammar that we made a large effort to try and present ourselves in a more professional manner. In fact, I still think a lot of my internet writing style comes from thinking "How would Andy Baker try to communicate this?".

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

A lot of this is true. I have friends on teams heavily involved in FIRST who are role models to their community and fellow teams who say that CD is only negativity, mindless criticism, and a hive mind where opinions are discouraged due to the need to be "GP". And as an involved user who thinks CD has the potential to be a great resource, I wholeheartedly agree. I only come on here because I have hope that there will occasionally be the rare learning opportunity or person asking for help in a topic I can assist with. I haven't posted any CAD I've done for months on Chief because I get no constructive criticism from it, and neither do my friends who, like me, are now choosing to spread their designs and talk about FIRST through other social media websites rather than Chief Delphi.

Thank you, Ryan, for bringing this up in the fashion you did. It's been attempted before, but I have a feeling this may actually get something accomplished. Also, Happy Birthday!

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The torch is being passed on to members such as you and Brandon and Carolyn Grace, Tom.

It is right for the torch to be passed on. Some torches will illuminate, as Andy Baker's has done, and others won't. The flame will burn or sputter ... It is up to the leadership qualities and character of the person who chooses to post in CD as an active participant. It has always been that way. From the time I began posting, I would look for your posts, Tom. They have always helped to lead the way. I value that. Leadership is something to be tended with grace and kindness as much as experience and knowledge. Dr. Flowers understands that balance very well and has talked about it many many times.

Jane

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

In the world of programmers, technical Q&A forums are used a LOT and very successfully (i.e. the useful content ratio is very high in some places).

One of the most successful one is called StackOverflow.com. Powered by a free community software called StackExchange.

StackOverflow revolves around technical questions and answers. No political debates; practical questions only. Answers can be ranked by readers so that the most useful answer floats to the top.

If there is a desire to bring CD back to a tool for roboteers, rather than a platform for debates, I would highly suggest us to take a look at the StackOverflow model or try hosting a site there. They have to be doing something right as StackExchange is increasingly popular with 5.4 million users.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Thank you for starting this thread, maybe we could pin it somewhere highly visible (Top of the portal comes to mind).


While we try to keep CD moving forward a couple of things that I would advocate removing/reducing:

-Reaction gifs. In a community consisting of freshmen and rocket scientists we are going to say/learn something that someone else finds simplistic or wrong. In my opinion reaction gifs rarely contribute to the tread and are sometimes used to intimidate or belittle others.

-When people say If we really have less then 10 people generating meaningful content can we eliminate this forum rule? Or can you just green dot 9 other somewhat useful posts? Posting this often feels like people wanting attention for sharing opinions or being a good person.

That said, maybe I'm no fun and out of touch. I'd be interested if anyone has any opinions on these or other items.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Andrew has a lot of truth in this, especially on the technical information that over time proved informative enough that a business major could learn enough to be dangerous. I know Dave laid the smackdown on me here on at least one occasion--but I deserved it. I don't find any fault with blunt, well-written come-on-you-guys discussion when a person knows their stuff.

My post count here on CD is...high, but it would be thousands more if I posted every post I aborted because I couldn't hit that level of quality. Not even just spelling and grammar, even the thoroughness of my research or argument. The spelling and grammar seem to have improved by my seat-of-the-pants measurement, but it is something that we have to keep an eye on as a community. I speak from experience: this is a very, very marketable skill in any profession.

Reaction GIFs have their place in my eyes (sparingly, and generally as an alternate form of praise), but I will say something about reputation. According to the CD control panel, my reputation-giving power is currently 622 points. That's a large swing for a user with fewer posts, which may have a greater effect than I might deem necessary. That colors my decision to leave positive/neutral/no reputation on a post. Your mileage may vary.

Posting this way also has the secondary effect of a public endorsement, which can have its own effects on discussion. I'd agree that an in-depth reply is better, but nobody's perfect.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I don't have a problem being told I'm an idiot from time to time, as long as the accusation has at least some basis in reality. I usually only try to post about stuff I know about, but there are times when someone's given me bad information or I'm just plain wrong. And especially if I'm being a jerk about being wrong, I can live with being told to go jump in a lake.

In regards to criticizing official FRC people, for the most part I see it as a good thing. I never want to be a part of a community where people follow what is said on high as gospel. Because of the nature of the sport, we have a greater of risk of becoming culty than the average sport. I'd much rather have people criticize FIRST people from time to time than give the impression that we're all whackos who worship at Dean Kamen's feet. In any case, a certain degree of criticism is necessary in order to keep improving the sport and the organisation. The fact that they work hard shouldn't be an all-encompassing shield that protects FRC staff and volunteers from any accusations of wrongdoing. Of course, sometimes things do get kind of out of line...

I'm fine with the level of criticism on CD right now, this forum really doesn't seem like a place where people go just to slam each other. The hero worshiping and hivemind can be annoying, but aren't really the biggest problem either. As others have said, this forum could become a lot better if people just talked about technical/strategic stuff more. That's the biggest thing we stand to improve on.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I can see two problems with the forum right now:

1) There is not enough technical discussion. There is far more activity in threads griping about "things I don't like about this year's game" than anything else, and these are generally unproductive and they very often breed ill-will and negativity.
2) The atmosphere is not always conducive to providing helpful feedback to people who need it. People who post incorrect things are often swamped with condemnations for being wrong rather than helpful corrections.

We'd all do well (myself included) to step back and realize people are in FIRST to learn. If everyone already knew everything, they would not need to post here. If every team were successful at all aspects of FIRST, there would be no purpose for anyone to participate.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I must agree on this, with one caveat: The criticism needs to be both constructive and, to some degree, warranted. Constructive, so that the problem can be fixed; warranted, because there should actually a problem and not just someone misinterpreting the rules or having a bad day.


Incidentally, this isn't the first thread on this sort of topic, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I started one a few years back, during a particularly snippy offseason. Looks like CD, like the rest of the world, runs in cycles. I suppose in a couple of years it'll be spamfest again.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

True, I don't post here often due to myself always being concerned about what I post. I spend way too much time making sure my posts are acceptable. Reading them several times over, even when it's something as simple as "Looks great! Can't wait to see your robot at competition." But, this isn't exclusive to CD, it's a quirk in my personality.

I don't want to be wrong, but I know I will be from time to time, it's part of life. In fact, you're more likely to remember something if you are corrected (in a respectful manner).

Plus, if I'm unsure about something, I know someone else on CD will reply in a moments notice, that's the power of the internet. But with great power comes great responsibility.
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

Looking back at my posts, I can see one thread that I added a bit of fuel to the flame, I apologize for that.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Frankly, the discussions of the political, societal and cultural implications of ideas—whether or not they have anything to do with robotics—were historically some of the most interesting conversations on the forums.

The increasing ease with which anyone can access our posts leads us to self-censor our opinions out of fear of the consequences. As a result, here (and elsewhere on the Internet), people now tend to be more cautious and less willing to postulate something unconventional or advocate for something unpopular. While one can argue that the risks of heated discussion or iconoclastic behaviour outweigh the benefits of discussions among people with common interests but diverse viewpoints, I worry that we're overcompensating for the perceived harms and will soon find ourselves in an online echo chamber, with nothing consequential to talk about.

Today's students participating on ChiefDelphi are missing out on the kind of high-quality conversations—and outright debates—that used to be commonplace. In those cases, it wasn't so much that the outcome of the debate was especially important, it's that by having the debate in a quasi-public place, everyone learned something about the issue at hand—and for some people, that was probably their introduction to the issue.

Speaking of an echo chamber, do we want a ChiefDelphi where people can't have that discussion for fear of offending a sponsor?

It's one thing to cause deliberate offence with malicious intent. It's quite another to recognize that a foreseeable consequence of constructive criticism is that people might recognize that mistakes were indeed made—and to criticize anyway, because that same criticism could plausibly lead to useful improvements. Certainly we have a moral duty to be judicious, but I don't think that moral duty compels us to be silent when we have nothing nice to say.

(Also, the magnitude of the problem may be overstated: Google is probably biasing your search results by personalizing them based on your inferred interests.)

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

This. I think this sums up what CD is designed to be.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I agree with everything you said. I'm all for healthy academic discourse. That's what CD "ought to be" - no question.
The reason I quoted the above is my wife was on her work computer when that happened. A coworker commented on her lipgloss, so she was looking for more info on the company. My wife ... she's not a chiefdelphi kind of girl.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I'm very curious as to what she searched as I can't get ChiefDelphi in any of the first 4 pages of Google results (after 4 I haven't looked as you start hitting no mans land). Once you search "Jane cosmetics first robotics" or "Lynn Tilton first robotics" does CD start showing up in the searches but its not the headline.

This isn't here or there at this point. Everyone should use caution when posting online but on flip side I don't think we should shy away from having certain conversations such as the one regarding Jane Cosmetics at the Championship as there was some good conversation that came from it.

I agree with the OP, ChiefDelphi has become a very hostile place these days and you can see the technical discussions have moved away because this place is full of trolls who think they know everything and tear apart anyone with a differing view. Most of the time its not by students its by adults which is pathetic. Stop tearing young students down and instead build them up correctly.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The weeks immediately following the competition season is a dark time for ChiefDelphi. A simple search for "negativity" reveals the trend:

April 2002: Negativity on and about CD
Late March 2005: Stop the Madness
May 2006: Refrain from the negatives
October* 2009: Whatever Happened to the Old Chief Delphi?
Late March 2011: Is there usually this much frustration?
Late March 2012: Sippin' on the haterade
May 2014: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be

*an outlier here, but extremely relevant.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The old saying in finance goes... "go away in May, come back in September to play". I've always thought that it could apply to CD too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sell_in_May

As for the general quality control post on this forum, I would like to see some more of the tribal knowledge in FRC institutionalized somewhere like a Wiki that could be easier to send a rookie team in need to. There are soo many best practices here that really just stop on some thread from 2006, it would be great to see that go somewhere that would do it justice. Maybe a wiki isn't the best place because the community needs to emphasize and validate information, but I'll let the community figure that out.

I'm just looking for a way to add some corporate jargon to this place.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

A while ago, there was a FIRST wiki, albeit rarely used by most.

EDIT: Oh, right, tons of spam...

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Also, no use. I remember setting up a whole page for my team, I think it was viewed more by me then anyone else. Sad...

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I'm new to CD so I don't want to speak with too much certainty, but I wonder if the occasional nastiness isn't a reflection of the (pretty old by internet standards) vBulletin template. Other online communities have been trying to grapple with similar problems (maintaining civil discussion, highlighting useful information) and they have come up with various forum features that help somewhat. These include:

1) "Likes" (Slashdot, Reddit, Metafilter, StackExchange, Facebook, Twitter and almost everyone else) - this gives posters a chance to show support or agreement without having to fill the thread with "mee too"s. It also gives readers another way to filter or sort replies.

2) "Flags" (Metafilter, Slashdot) - gives posters a chance to notify moderators of particularly good or bad posts without having to fill thread with "pile-on" criticisms

3) "Real Name Policy" (Facebook, Google+) - a bit more controversial (I'm not actually in favour of this one, even though I follow it myself). It eliminates sock puppet accounts, and gives posters a bit of pause before posting to know that their comments will be attached to their names.

4) Help forums (AskMetafilter, StackExchange) - specific places where anyone (not just CD regulars) are encouraged to find help, and regulars are encouraged (through various gamification tricks) to provide high-signal/noise responses.

There are other techniques as well (heavy / pre-moderation, signup costs, contributor rankings / best post trophies...). Not all of them will be useful here, but some of them might. A facelift wouldn't hurt either - the CD interface is pretty intimidating for someone who isn't already inclined to post online. I don't have the skills to contribute the changes myself unfortunately, but I'm sure there are some talented web designers in FRC who might be up to the challenge.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I'm gonna just respond to these, there's some interesting ideas on them.



1) "Likes" (Slashdot, Reddit, Metafilter, StackExchange, Facebook, Twitter and almost everyone else) - this gives posters a chance to show support or agreement without having to fill the thread with "mee too"s. It also gives readers another way to filter or sort replies.

I've personally, never been much of a fan of "likes" I feel it leads to people writing things that are likable rather than useful discussion.


2) "Flags" (Metafilter, Slashdot) - gives posters a chance to notify moderators of particularly good or bad posts without having to fill thread with "pile-on" criticisms

Moderators already do way too much work for too little pay (ie, $0). Plus, define a bad post? I'm certain that my definition is vastly different than most folks. The rep system kinda serves as a way of passing a message to the actual user. (I use a lot of green and gray rep to give feedback).


3) "Real Name Policy" (Facebook, Google+) - a bit more controversial (I'm not actually in favour of this one, even though I follow it myself). It eliminates sock puppet accounts, and gives posters a bit of pause before posting to know that their comments will be attached to their names.

I've used my real name on here for many years. It doesn't really give me pause at this point. I know that you find this account if you search my name in Google. But, while I'm a bit of a jerk a lot of the time on here it's nothing compared to how some of my coworkers are. But I do like the idea of a person being a known person Accounts like LF are different imho. Having been on the prediction side of the coin, doing it from NOT your real name is a good thing. This community SAYS it's respectful but the horrific comments/lies I've gotten sent my way say quite the opposite.

However, that logic really only applies to adults.

4) Help forums (AskMetafilter, StackExchange) - specific places where anyone (not just CD regulars) are encouraged to find help, and regulars are encouraged (through various gamification tricks) to provide high-signal/noise responses.

I'd be ok seeing a StackOverflow style Q&A board, it solves some of the problems with forums. It does introduce some new ones.




How do we get to a less cyclically negative community? Well, I got a few wonderfully enlightening text messages today... at the time I didn't find them quite as wonderful but with a few hours to think on it I learned something. I'm sharing some of the thoughts since I have a hunch I'm not the only one who does it.

- Snippish responses to misunderstandings. I do this a lot, a lot of other folks do too. Maybe we should take a lesson from what we always yell at the GDC for and not rush our calls. I've been writing most of my posts 2/3 times before posting them... unfortunately I'm a REALLY fast typist. Coupled that with the fact that I get frustrated with what I perceive as stupidity and stay that way for a long time; I guess I need to physically write them out. I'd be willing to bet this would prevent a lot of misunderstandings.

- Negative tone. I, and many folks (esp this year) have a really negative tone. Or at least that's what folks tell me. I rarely see it as I focus mostly on content rather than tone. I'm open to suggestions on avoiding this one. It's a writing style/personality style. I've noticed, at least in my field, it tends to be quite common to be very negative when looking at things. Suggestions on being optimistic are very welcome.

- Frustration at arguments based solely on feeling. I'm a firm believe in facts. It's why I'm in STEM. My mind is wired to believe there is an OPTIMAL answer. Because of this I find myself being frustrated by folks who think that an opinion based on nothing more than "well I feel that..." is worth as much as a researched opinion. Big wakeup call to folks like me: We're wrong. I hate writing that, I hate admitting that. But as this friend pointed out (as much as I didn't want them to), feelings are just as valid about a lot of topics. That being said, folks who base opinions on feelings should recognize that if facts come to light disproving your feeling? Responding with "You're wrong because I feel this" without incorporating the new facts into your belief is just rude.


Those are the big three I pulled out of that conversation. I figured I'd share in case someone else similar finds any use out of them.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Thanks for the kind words Ryan.

I 'officially' joined ChiefDelphi back on kickoff in 2004 after a couple of years of stalking. Like Tom pointed out, CD helped me grow up, learn to make concise well-articulated arguments and was a source for endless information on all things FIRST (and more).

I had a chance to interact with guys like Andy Baker and Joe Johnson on a daily basis, and have them critique my designs, strategies and choices. Of course there were spirited debates and arguments, that will come with ANY group that is passionate about something.

What I think we're really missing these days is hearty technical discussion, with original ideas and complimentary content. Looking at designs posted up for critique in the past several years, much of the feedback is regurgitated from older/similar posts. Creative ideas are often first critiqued with something like, "Interesting, but you should just do 6WD kitbot instead...". While this is extremely useful advice in certain situations- I miss the CD that celebrated cool ideas with a nice discussion about them- not endless rants and questions as to why you would ever do such a thing.

I was very fortunate to have some amazing mentors both here on CD and in person along my path. I still have these mentors as I've gotten older and picked up new ones along the way. I would like to think the next generation of FIRSTers can be exposed to the same experience I had here on CD. It's not a simple problem to fix, as cultural issues are often deep-seeded and have massive inertia.

All we can do is lead by example and hope the rest follow suit. Something I have tried to do as a mentor, and I know many others have as well.

-Brando

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

This is a great post, and might just be the best one I've read, ever. If you look at the "negative" conversations that have been going on, 90% of the posts are by the set of people people who have full/almost full rep bars, and are active, well-known users. If everybody makes a good effort to be constructive, we could really make CD a wonderful place. After reading this, I looked through my posts from this year, and realized that I'm guilty of doing most of the bad stuff. I've convinced myself that I'm not going to post anything that doesn't help someone or contribute to a conversation. If I think something isn't good, I'll try to stay more positive, and help find a possible solution. For all the complaining over little things I did this year, I accomplished absolutely nothing.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

As a mentor with only five years in FRC and on CD my opinion is of limited value. I offer this. I find CD a good resource and generally positive in nature. I can figure out negative threads usually by the title but I some times read them and post if I have input for or against.

I think discussion is generally positive on CD. Discussion in a civil manner should never be discouraged but I would agree that some posts are not civil. Welcome to our world and the realities of it.

There has always been negatives to freedom of speech but we should not run from the principal of it in this forum. We should strive to be CIVIL in our discussions and PERHAPS censor uncivil posts but who is the JUDGE of that. I like this forum and try to be constructive in my posts and I believe for the most part others do as well.

I think questioning this forum and what is posted is healthy and the question should be asked from time to time but a third party just deleting posts or the like does not seem to me the way to go unless FIRST is drawing the wrong sort of people more than I have witnessed.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

This is a thought based on a few years of participating in Chief Delphi and in FIRST.

When members refer to the mentoring leadership skills that Andy Baker and Joe Johnson shared and continue to share with us - they are addressing skills that are hidden in plain view. One example would be the value of listening. Another would be paying attention. Another would be, and I think this is very important, they don't forget about the membership of the Chief Delphi community. It is a wonderful community comprised of members of all ages, diverse cultures, interests, and experiences. Andy and Joe never forget that. Neither does Brandon.

When new members participate, they are learning. When new members of a FIRST team join and participate, they are really learning. We can all remember the struggle of learning about this amazing program, and.. whoa... there is a forum, created by a team, for people to gather and be a community. Wow, how cool that?!?! There are those who always keep the community, and the unique opportunities that it presents, at the forefront of their thoughts when posting. There are those who begin to slip into taking it all for granted and who stopped listening and keeping the community members in mind when they are posting.

And that's why threads like these are healthy.

It's been quite a year and it has been reflected here within this community. That said, many wonderful things have happened and opportunities have occurred. Don't lose sight of those when you bring your gifts and talents to boards here in CD. It's not that hard to do.
---
A final thought - Andrew, you have a really good friend. You are lucky that he/she cares enough to be that honest with you. Everyone should have a friend like that.

Jane

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I've always wished I could help remedy the issue of "not enough technical discussion" but the sad part is, I don't have enough technical knowledge to do this, almost all of the time. I come here to learn from you guys! I don't have enough data to draw any conclusions, but I can say from anecdotal evidence, out of a desire to improve the overall quality of posts, I am more hesitant to post on the technical threads, because I am aware of my lack of experience. After being a fairly passive user for a long time, and seeing threads like this time and time again, I have made an effort to post constructively when I can, but it is difficult when I often am not able to. However, all this may be irrelevant if inexperienced people are the minority here.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I've delayed posting in this thread, as I process my thoughts. Here is what I have come up with:

Discussion is important to the FIRST community, which is why ChiefDelphi is a great resource for mentors and students. It is a medium for discussion, allows for everyone to develop their communication skills, and encourages networking among individuals. These are the facts.

:: Puts on English teacher glasses ::
Imma take you back to your sophomore year English class when you analyzed Shakespeare's Julius Ceasar.
::Zach Morris timeout:: You never analyzed Julius Ceasar!? You didn't pay attention in English class because you didn't think it was important or interesting?! THIS is why we need more NEMs in FIRST. ;)

There are three tools (appeals) to use when you have a discussion:
1. Logos
2. Pathos
3. Ethos

Such Greek. So philosophy. Much debating.

Logos: the appeal using Logic.
(Attention! Stereotype ahead!) This is the way that most engineers argue: logically. The facts are the facts! The data shows this, and so we should do this. You are wrong because you have nothing to back up your point of view. I am right because I can point to this, that and there. Logic is valuable when making an argument because it has information to back up its point. Logos is cited often on ChiefDelphi, and used more by veteran mentors because they have more data, experience and information at their fingertips. Personally, I feel that this is the most important form of appeal in discussions. What's the purpose of discussion if you can't back up your argument?

Pathos: the appeal to Emotion.
(Stereotype ChooChoo coming again! Don't let it derail your train of thought! I'm so punny...) This is the type of appeal that most engineers dismiss as being unimportant. "I'm right because I'm right, and here are the facts to show it. Why should I care what other people feel?" That's a great question! You should care what other people think because how they feel towards you effects how they view your point of view. If they feel insulted, attacked, dismissed, or judged, they are more likely to dismiss your points of view, regardless if you have shown them facts that they can not dispute. Similarly, if your audience feels respected, listened to, and like an active participant they are more willing to listen to your point of view, respect your input and be swayed to your side. You know who is great at this? Good Guy Frank. Why do we all like him? Because his tone suggests that he cares, his attitude reflects thoughtfulness, and he consistently points out how he is listening to what we have to say. He often appeals to Pathos.

Ethos: the appeal using Credibility.
This is the most fascinating appeal IMO. It is one that takes time to develop. Each person's credibility depends on a variety of things and is unique to that person. For example, Dave Lavery's credibility (quoted so nicely by Andrew in an early post) is huge: Just Google the guy and you come up with some impressive information. His professional credibility allows him a unique balance of sarcasm in his writing, because what he says automatically holds a lot of weight. It also means that his posts are scrutinized carefully by others. Similarly, Andy Baker's credibility is popular due to his long-term participation in FIRST, the creation of AndyMark Inc and his thoughtful personality that shines through in all that he does. ChiefDelphi is a fantastic way for people to make or break their own credibility. Rarely does credibility stand on its own though: in order to turn yourself into a credible debater, you need to appeal to other's sense of logos and pathos.

Which brings me to my final point (just kidding, I have like a million more things to say still...):

The best discussion/debate utilizes all three forms of appeals. ChiefDelphi provides a fantastic medium for this, especially with the greenie/reddie reputation system. If you find that you are really good at one appeal (I imagine most of you are great at Logos) then try to improve your use of another appeal.

Additionally, ChiefDelphi is part of a larger program: FIRST. FIRST is a program that embraces learning and growth. Which means that CD should be a place that allows for learning and growth as well. So we need to add two final aspects to our appeals: Humor and Humility.

Humor: FIRST is supposed to be fun! So embrace humor and try to find humor in your own writing as well as the communication in others. When we find humor, we become more creative and thoughtful individuals, which helps with all three forms of appeal.

Humility: FIRST embraces growth for all members. Embracing humility and constantly looking for how to improve yourself (including your written communication skills) is helpful to the community as a whole.

With the recent rise of various social media pages, like FRC Confessions, that diminish the Ethos and Logos side of discussions and concentrate soley on the Pathos, (yes, shots fired) it's important for everyone in our FIRST community to continue embracing and learning about our Core Values, especially how we apply them through written/digital communication.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

As a thought experiment: "I love team 2013" is the exact same statement (albeit multiplied by -1) as "I hate team 2013". For one statement to be acceptable and the other not, doesn't really make sense now does it? However, the first is perfectly acceptable to post while the second is not. Each one should be met with the same response if you truly want the most out of our discussions here on CD- "Why do you love/hate team 2013?". The problem is that the first makes everyone feel happy and fuzzy inside and hence goes unquestioned. The second, elicits "That's not GP of you". In either case we fail to discover the merits or deficits of team 2013.

People do not always agree on things. When you appeal to a community for answers to technical questions or solicit an opinion, you have to accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with each other. Each has their own views of a situation and what the best solution is. If you solicit these responses from people, then be ready for them to defend their views and ways of thinking against each other in whatever method they choose.

For someone to say "I want to know what you all think, but I want everyone to give me the same answer and agree" is not conducive to a productive discussion so don't expect it when you make a post.

Some of the greatest advances in history are a direct result of conflict. Arguments and bickering are indeed part of the discussion- they are the result of individuals attempting to assert themselves in a forum where I am sure many feel as if they are not heard. It may need to be managed, if not to protect the delicate egos of everyone involved, then to simply filter out some of the tripe in many of the threads these days but I implore everyone to STOP HIDING BEHIND THE GUISE OF GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM WHEN SOMEONE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU. It cheapens the meaning of the term and does nothing to further the discussion. If someone doesn't agree with you and says your idea will not work, or when someone thinks something or someone is bad etc- don't just hurl the accusation that they are being ungracious. Understand that this person has been influenced by an experience(s) or event(s) that has caused them to arrive at their statement and it is not appropriate for you to dismiss their views simply because they don't make you feel happy inside.

In the end, if you want a forum where valid, discussion takes place- where opinions are collected (and in a discussion forum like this, 99% of what takes place are opinions whether the participants accept this or not) then you're going to have to take the good with the bad and accept the fact that not everyone is as happy as you, not everyone shares the same opinions and not everyone agrees that a swerve drive can overpower a skid steer drive etc.

If you don't like where a discussion is headed, then don't participate. On the internet, everyone considers themselves an expert and everyone has an opinion - this is the reality. If you squelch it because it does not make you feel good then you loose part of what makes an open forum so valuable.

IMHO: Take the bad with the good and get over yourselves. Parse the information you collect using your objective thinking skills and form your own opinions whether they are good or bad, agree with your premises or not. If we get rid of the negativity, we lose half the experience.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Wat.

Negation is a big difference, and sentences in natural language aren't formal logical statements to begin with. I don't think you honestly believe that there is no substantive difference between how those two statements contribute to the atmosphere on the message board.

Telling a team that you hate them is not graciously professional, and I hope you have the decency to never do so. That is not how we maintain a healthy community.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The fact that this thread includes a post discussing the finer points of web-forum community interaction followed by a post using Greek philosophy to explain debate dynamics helpfully illustrates why I love this forum, and the community that it supports, so much.

I do think discussion and debate between differing viewpoints is healthy and necessary to facilitate learning, but it's important to remain civil and try to maintain a professional and inclusive decorum.

Also, this thread reminded me of the "Real Life ChiefDelphi" video Bacon made a while back. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_mdx8_6A4) had a little nostalgia trip at work.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The sticky part about CD is this: It's an Internet forum. Always has been, always will be.
But it can be, and professes to be, so much more.

Same with FIRST Robotics. It's a high school competition. Always has been, always will be.
But it can be, and professes to be, so much more.

We can argue and discuss GP and Obnoxious Amateurism and all kinds of Greek and Latin history, but at the end of the day we all know how not to be a jerk. We also know just enough about Marketing to realize when we're being counterproductive with our 'discussions' and turning them into flame wars.

Let's be the change we wish to see.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Jesus... I used my own team in this theoretical example in hopes that I could not possibly offend anyone... I was wrong apparently.

It's an example! Replace "team 2013" with what ever topic you wish.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I want to explore the possibility that Oblarg did not read your post as an assertion that you would use CD to tell a team that you hate them. Rather, what Oblarg was, perhaps, identifying as troubling, and what troubles me too, is that the logic is challenging. I understand that I might be incorrect. The logic is not only challenging, but also the conclusion.

I'm not sure where else you will find that you can multiple a statement by negative one to give it the extreme opposite sentiment. Very rarely are sentences and ideas so simple.

I'll add that I also find your conclusion challenging. It is very possible to make a contribution without negativity or disagreement. And, certainly, this type of contribution encourages further fruitful conversation and additional voices.

Perhaps, this is part of Carolyn's point. We need to add anecdotes, we can add new evidence from an unfamiliar source, and we can add new logic patterns that come to different conclusions without discouraging anyone that is bold enough to post on these forums.

Ultimately, is our goal not the creation and growth of community under the umbrella of the FIRST programs that we all find so transformative and worthwhile? I am happy that members of this community write and re-write posts. Writing is hard. We should all become very familiar with that fact and this is writing. We write in a way that represents ourselves, represents FIRST well, and welcomes each member of this community - engineers, non-engineers, students, parents, sponsors, college students, people of color, people that identify as LGBTQIA , international students, and anyone that might come across Chief Delphi. Dialogue is important. Chief Delphi develops educational dialogue. This is conversation is productive, additive, and it contributes to a collective knowledge. It doesn't mean that we are all positive or in agreement, but it does mean that we are aware of each of the different groups that make up our community and we tailor our writing to respect them, to teach them, and to listen to them.

I'm very happy that threads like this exist. Each of our teams has a period of reflection at the end of the season, each of us individually reflects through transitional periods, FIRST HQ reflects at the end of a season, and so should we as a community invite critical discussion of the ways that we communicate.

-Sam

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I'm not sure anyone was insulted by your post. We are all just a little bit confused. Can you clarify your point?

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Carolyn, you asked me in a private message 47 minutes prior the same thing.

I used the word "hate" because it is the antonym of "love" but perhaps "hate" was too strong a word. Reread my "thought experiment" without any emotion- take it right out of the equation. Replace "hate" with let's say- "do not love".

Without letting emotions take the wheel, what does your brain ask you when you read those two statements:

I love 2013.

I do not love 2013.

Ideally, based on the type of discussion the community seems to want on CD, I would hope that for either case you would wonder "why does one love or not love 2013?". But this is not the kind of response we see to these statements.

Without posing that question the two statements really have no value to any discussion here unless there is an implicit explanation due to the context in which they have been used.

So I would like to use Oblarg's response as an example of what I would like to see less of- that is the failure to ask the question and instead, jumping to: "Telling a team that you hate them is not graciously professional, and I hope you have the decency to never do so. That is not how we maintain a healthy community.".

Oblarg did not ask the question which *should* follow statements like these. He has no clue as to the context that I love or do not love 2013. Instead, he jumped on my back and accused me of not being GP, supposedly because my opinion did not agree with his.

Now, lets say you do ask the question. The following responses could completely change the perception of the statements and reverse the emotions involved. For EXAMPLE (#2 did NOT happen FYI)

I do not love 2013 because the maple toffee was harder than usual this year and pulled out my filling.

I love 2013 because they flipped another robot on purpose.
(Disclaimer: ***DID NOT HAPPEN***)

All of a sudden the two statements reverse their positive and negative connotations.


What I am getting at here is that everything that someone posts has been influenced by their own personal experiences. To go around slapping hands accusing people of "not being GP" when you either don't agree or don't understand them carries with it the same negativity you claim to be fighting. It doesn't further the discussion. Understand that there is usually a reason for a post on this forum. Even the ones which are extremely negative and not in the spirit of FIRST. Someone has had an experience to cause them to write such a thing and to tell them they're "wrong" does not help solve their problem, resolve the situation or further discussion on the topic.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The response that should follow your original wording of "I hate <insert team here>" is a condemnation of that sort of post, because it is destructive and breeds an atmosphere that we do not want. The context is not relevant, and the choice of language is extremely important.

It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing, or whether the opinion is founded or unfounded. Telling someone you hate them does not engender useful discourse, and people should have no expectation that it'll be overlooked.

Note that in my previous post, I did not say that you were not being graciously professional. I said that anyone who'd claim "I hate <insert team here> would be being graciously professional, and there is nothing wrong with the primary response to that claim being condemnation rather than attempted discourse.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Nah, the only proper response is "Why?" because without any context we cannot understand where they are coming from. Perhaps FRC Team 2013's robot ran over his puppy. By finding more information we can address the root cause of the hate rather than put the GP bandaid over and cause festering hate.

Anger -> Hate -> Dark Side -> Shooting Cool Lightning -> Having really wrinkly skin.

Do you want fox46 to have wrinkly skin? Nah, so let's ask him what his reasons are and address them rather than condemning the symptom and letting the causes go untreated.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Thank you Andrew!

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

And to be clear, I do not hate any team, especially my own!

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I somewhat concur with this. While I would immediately be disappointed with this, the "mentor" in me would ultimately turn to
Oblarg is right in that sort of language is destructive, but it doesn't help to reply with "YOURE UNGRACIOUS", as I feel that's more-so destructive. If they are then help to understand what you believe is the right way to respond. Be a mentor.


I will add that Oblarg brings up a good point
I tell my students this every time they want to say something negative. To tell me what they feel but choose their words careful enough to not be negative. And if they do say something that's offensive or could be offensive, then it's my duty to remind them to say it in a more polite manner.

After all FIRST & CD are both places to learn everything.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

So ask good technical questions. When I started posting on CD I started with a question about sizing a gearbox, which went into a discussion of reflected inertia with Dr Joe, which lead to a lot of other things over the years. Good questions bring out the best minds here, and some of them are very very good.

Think about something you wish were different about this year's robot and ask questions about how to do it better. That would be a good start.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Not condemning use of destructive and ungracious language is isomorphic to tacit approval. There is no way for any community to maintain a standard of discourse if no one acts to do so.

If you care about the discourse here being civil and gracious, then I think you have an obligation to point out when it is not and make it clear that you do not approve.

If/when the tone becomes acceptable, then you resume discourse.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I disagree. I think condemning is more destructive and tacit approval is destructive as well. I suppose it depends on what you mean by condemnation though.

The difference being condemning by saying "you're being very un-GP" vs. saying "that is a strong opinion. Why?"

Andrew's point is to not use the first method and to rather use the second. By saying the first, you're literally fueling the fire.

Saying GP over and over again doesn't help, but telling someone how to act respectably (essentially GP) might help.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I wish we could do away with "gracious professionalism" and/or "GP" as a descriptor in discussion on CD.

Here's why:

Situation 1:

Person A posts some topic talking about a controversial situation.
Person B says "Wow, talking in that way about other teams isn't GP. This topic should be closed"

Situation 2:

Person A posts some topic talking about a controversial situation.
Person B says "Wow, talking in that way about other teams isn't very polite. This topic should be closed"

If I, as Person C, disagree with Person B, we have a problem. Everyone has different interpretations of what "GP" is. However, if you argue with anyone about what it means, and don't just accept it as a blanket statement, people get hostile, like "GP" is some blanket truth that everyone is supposed to agree upon and not question, just because Woodie said you should be GP.

My grandma probably has/had a lot different view on things than your grandma.

I also see it thrown around a lot too where it doesn't need to be, like (paraphrasing something I remember seeing earlier this year) "the music you used in your robot video isn't very GP". Really? It's a music piece that we can talk about the pros and cons of, it doesn't need to be "abolished from FIRST society forever" just because you don't like it or maybe find lyrics or themes questionable.

That's just one example. I know there are a lot of people out there who don't "abuse" the term, but I wish we could all just post and say what we mean instead of throwing the "YOU AREN'T BEING GP!" flag.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

If someone comes out and says openly "I hate your team," I think they should be told quite firmly "that tone is not acceptable here."

If no one ever does this, there is no way to uphold any standard of discourse at all.

Ideally, if people continue to be nasty, the moderators step in.

This has nothing to do with "saying GP over and over again" or substituting "GP" in places where there should be legitimate discourse. This is a fundamental tenant of a decent forum community that's not at all specific to CD or to FIRST.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I'd rather have folks learn WHY something is not acceptable than merely the fact that it is. There's no lack of condemnation, merely a lateral approach that address the core issue.


Play a little thought experiment with me:


Me: I hate 1337

You: Thats not GP, you shouldn't say that here. *neg rep*

Me (to my friends): I hate 1337

OR

Me: I hate 1337

You: Why?

Me: Because they are mentor built and their students don't learn anything. And my students get discouraged because they always lose to them and it's not fair

You: [rational explanation on why that line of thinking is flawed and how I should use them as a role model, something to strive to BE not to BEAT]

Me: Oh. I hadn't looked at it that way.

Which exchange has more value? The former was using GP as a bandaid to treat the symptom (emotion based on misunderstanding) vs the actual problem (misunderstanding).

Now, come at it from the perspective of a member of 1337, all they'd see is "All these people hate us and are only not saying it because it's not GP". Not cool.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

But saying that flat out without any explanation or prompt for further discussion will likely drive the person away and this "hate" will continue to exist.

No-one is suggesting not to approach that post and mention that it's unacceptable, but similar to how you said "choice of words is EXTREMELY important". It's the same situation here.


Perhaps it's moot to discuss this part, but like Andrew said there's people that simply say "this post is un-GP" or even keep referring to the GP. So we don't have to talk about GP because it seems like you're not trying to defend this.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

In my estimation, the second scenario is rather contrived and unlikely ("you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at by reasoning"), and the far more likely course of events is a protracted debate with further use of uncivil tone.

I think you miss something when you claim that the "actual problem" is only the misunderstanding. It is not; or, at least, the misunderstanding is only part of the problem. One can voice an unpopular (or wrong, whichever you prefer) opinion in a civil manner.

Pointing out that the tone is unacceptable isn't a band-aid to cover the first problem, it's addressing the second problem directly, which I think quite strongly is a valuable thing to do.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

As long as you don't leave it at just pointing it out. I will concede that pointing it out with an explanation is an appropriate thing to do.

To Andrew, it's still important that the person understands to not just say "I hate xxx". So in a reply that asks "Why?" I would also have a tidbit asking them to explain for future posts or to refrain from saying something so blunt. Slightly irrelevant but...This is like every technical post ever that goes "My robot is messed up" and the correct reply would be "What do you mean? Also, in future posts please explain further so we can help and skip this section".

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

That was my intended point. I'm glad we reached agreement! :)

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The language people use isn't the problem, the feeling or idea that drove someone to use that language is. Criticizing someone for the way they present an idea rather than for the content of the idea is, as ever, a bad idea.

CD has many, many more users today than it did 10 years ago. One could argue that the decline in overall quality mirrors the decline of quality in FIRST itself. Efforts to raise the floor, as the saying goes, of robot functionality on the field could be mimicked here as well. The challenge, I believe, is that there is nothing so convenient as geography to insulate each of us on CD from facing ALL of the bad at one time, so the notion of raising the floor of discourse here is all the more daunting.

Regarding technical discussion, specifically --

Most people answering technical questions have little to no idea what they're talking about and would probably do the community a service by keeping quiet. When a chorus of misinformation piles into a thread, the folks that do know their stuff have to answer the original question and debunk all of the bad science that gets thrown around. The burden on the subject matter experts, in that regard, is much higher.

I'm not sure how to fix that, exactly, but it mustn't be impossible. It'll probably take a bit of education, a lot patience, and a more stern manner with some folks to make them understand that they're noise more often than they're signal.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I do not think this is true as a general principle.

If someone comes in and says something completely valid, but with vile and offensive language, should we do nothing because "the content of the idea is all that matters?"

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

If you're asking me, specifically, I believe that we should judge the value of the idea, not its presentation.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

In that case, I think we simply have a fundamental disagreement about what makes a good message board.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Probably so. Policing 'vile or offensive language' or ideas isn't something I'm too interested in doing. My standard is likely very different from yours, which is itself very different from someone else's standard. I am not so presumptuous as to assume that my standard is the correct one -- perhaps you are not either -- so I am not comfortable telling other people how they should behave or what language they should use. Certainly, the standard I use in moderation here is very different from the standard used by others.

What I can do is to share with them how their behavior or language impacts me and empower them to choose to change if they desire.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

My takeaway from this is still "...that pointing it out with an explanation is an appropriate thing to do."


Oblarg - as long as you provide an explanation feel free to point it out.


Madison, while your standard may or may not be correct, you should still make the effort to explain to them why you feel their language is offensive or vile, and suggest improvements. While you don't have to, to make this community "not just another internet forum", it's important we self-moderate. This doesn't mean setting a standard but simply to make sure we're aware of each other by being respectful (whatever that may mean).

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I want to make a statement that I always made on this forum and elsewhere. "There is no such thing as 'un-GP'." I would hope that others will stop using that phrase as (in my opinion) it undermines Gracious Professionalism itself. In many of those videos we older generation individuals watched of Dr. Woodie Flowers discussing the topic, we should be well aware that GP was never "a bar that needs to be reached." An action or spoken word that is good, humble, culture changing and/or worthy to be shared ... is Gracious Professionalism. An action or spoken word that is disingenuous, unfair, against the morals of FIRST and/or the way things have always been ... is disingenuous, unfair, against the ideals of FIRST and/or the way things have always been. Gracious Professionalism promotes what is above and beyond. Everything else is just the way things are.

I am hesitant to call the Chief Delhi Forums as ever being universally bad or universally good. There are threads with encouraging posts discussing good topics and have appropriate levels of conversation. Team support, skill assistance, data crunching, and event commentary are all topics that don't exist in the same way anywhere else for the FIRST programs, and specifically for FRC. And to the same end there are also threads with posts that collectively get chewed-up, ripped-apart and spat-out - appearing as a school of piranha that together swim in peace and unity until a poor soul starts to bleed.

This forum is a collection of threads. Threads are a series of posts. And posts are created by individuals. It is really then on you and I to improve the quality of our own posts. When we do this, the threads will be improved. And when all of the threads are filled with clear, effective and insightful dialogue and commentary, we will then have our great forum. Let us promote insightful dialogue in the same way we should be promoting Gracious Professionalism: When there is effective dialogue and manner of speaking we should point to it, respond in kind, and promote it as our high standard - even if we disagree with the topic expressed. When there is a post of bad grammar and spelling, with untrue remarks or aggression we should respond with our effective dialogue or ignore it. It doesn't matter if our effective dialogue points out the flaws or not - what's important is if it's the effective dialogue we should be striving for.

However, I am not oblivious to reality. I realize that these goals are idealistic and utopian. I myself have made plenty of mistakes in tone and substance while on this forum. Some even created heated arguments and dissent. This post may be one as well. I'm just of the opinion that nothing will be gained from having a conversation on what is or isn't the right way to empress ourselves in a conversation - at least for the moment. What will make things better now is if we all just step back from our posts and realize that words make waves and we need to be aware of how tall our waves are.

I'm reminded by the basic concept of Qualification matches: "Your opponent in one match may be your ally in another". We should all be aware that those that have poor spelling or opposing viewpoints are also allies in making FIRST the best program in the world and making our world into the best it can be.

The Chief Delhi Forums are known for being an effective tool for FIRST students and mentors to share their ideas and connect us in ways other social interactions fail to do. It's also known as a haven of snobby grumps and the old guard that's impossible to present an alternate opinion to. I think that this forum can grow for the better if everyone starts to present themselves in the same way as everyone wants to be perceived as.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

Yay.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

I've had exactly that conversation, dozens of times over the past few years, with members of my team, members of other teams, and people previously unaffiliated with coopetitive robotics. It is a powerful and necessary discussion to have, and I'm glad some of my forebears had that discussion with me several years ago.

^THIS^
A judicious application of the above statement would solve a vast majority of the misunderstandings on this forum. I've noticed a BUNCH of threads lately where the OP says "I'm looking for data regarding X, if you've dealt with X please give me data", followed by pages of some version of "I've never actually done X but I've seen grainy webcasts where I think it was used and it's horrible" or "The parent of somebody on my team says this other mentor says X is bad so don't ever do it"
Those types of responses have NO PLACE in this forum, and to me, are more damaging than "I hate 2013*" posts.
*I don't hate 2013. It was a pretty good year, actually. And the team seems quite nice, even if they are Canadian.

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

The closer CD comes to being a "Wiki Answers" for FIRST-related technical questions, the worse it will be. ;)

Re: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
 

In my opinion the antonym of "Love" is "Indifference", not "Hate". Yep, got it.All those hours going to a presentation skills class, wasted!It is not a bad thing to correct someone's mis-use of facts (which includes spelling and grammar, as well as physics). It is a bad thing to demean them. However, sometimes people read emotion into words that isn't really there.

As several have noted, clean writing is a valuable skill.
It is important to note that someone's feelings cannot be wrong.

However, opinions can be in ignorance of facts, and therefore wrong. You will never change my opinion that the Earth will continue to revolve around the sun for the next 12 years, I don't care which Greek arguments you try. And if you assert to me an opinion that one generally does not need an engineering degree to be an engineer, I will dispute that. If, in your opinion, static friction force depends upon surface area, that too will be disputed. And so on.

A wrong answer is worse than no answer.