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-   -   9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129549)

nikeairmancurry 20-05-2014 22:35
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1386573)
It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.
2612 was the team.

TedG 21-05-2014 08:21
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJ (Post 1386498)
Not if you get bumped into the top 8 by in-picking. It only prevents you from being picked, not picking.

Now I'm curious if a team in the top 8 or gets bumped into the top 8 can decline an alliance captain spot on the basis of a non-functioning robot (a reason you'd decline an invitation from outside the top 8 most of the time).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniwersel (Post 1386499)
If someone picks out of the top 8, the 9th seed becomes an alliance captain. If another team is picked from the top 8, the 10th seed becomes a captain. So if you decline when you're out of the top 8 you're taking a gamble, but you're not completely done.

Edit: I got ninja'd..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1386501)
Right - but if there had been interpicking there, the #9 seed would have moved up and had the right to select their own alliance (What I'm assuming 610 was going for in that instance). Still, a harsh lesson in "you never know what's going to happen". Yeowch.

Edit:: Someone else beat me to it. Oops.
Ahh yes, thanks. I wasn't thinking it through. So in that example 610 was expecting to get bumped up to 8th seed where they could pick, but it didn't happen.

pfreivald 21-05-2014 08:31
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedG (Post 1386685)
Ahh yes, thanks. I wasn't thinking it through. So in that example 610 was expecting to get bumped up to 8th seed where they could pick, but it didn't happen.
Yeah, that was brutal to see; everyone there felt just awful for them!

RunawayEngineer 21-05-2014 08:45
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1386573)
It happened a few years ago at another MI District event. The team had already qualified for State, and wanted to use the pit time. (Plus, it gave another team a chance to get points.) The scouting captain was on the sidelines with me in 9th or 10th and wondered if he could decline if he got moved up. Eventually he declined to be the captain the 7th alliance.
Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations. The presence of the team in Qualifications helped determine the spots of many of the other teams in the rankings - bowing out just to get some pit time is sketchy. It seems like a cheap way to get an advantage for the next competition.

JohnSchneider 21-05-2014 09:24
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunawayEngineer (Post 1386691)
Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations. The presence of the team in Qualifications helped determine the spots of many of the other teams in the rankings - bowing out just to get some pit time is sketchy. It seems like a cheap way to get an advantage for the next competition.
At a district event, them bowing out before elims is huge for some lucky teams point total. They got the pit time they needed without pulling points out of the system. Totally GP.

JamesCH95 21-05-2014 09:44
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron (Post 1386523)
I would say that was a case of poor planning or lack of attention to detail, not some issue with teenage abilities.
No doubt that accounts for some of it, but if you've gone to an FRC event you have seen a scout with a list/notebook in hand struggling to pick a team. It doesn't help when the DJ fires up the Jeopardy theme and everyone starts giggling.

Caleb Sykes 21-05-2014 09:51
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunawayEngineer (Post 1386691)
Was the robot in need of major repair? Otherwise, it's seems like an un-GP move to go to a competition with no intention of going through Eliminations...
un-GP is not a thing.

Siri 21-05-2014 09:54
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo1oser (Post 1386627)
Our team played on Newton this year, and finished 18th after losing a match to 1986 and 971 in the final qualification match. To our dismay, MARS was the highest seed (I think) left out of eliminations. I guess that had to do with a touch penalty or what role we could play (maybe we didn't show off our trussing abilities enough?), but the news left our team and head mentor (who had just spent three hours fixing our robot's transmissions :confused: ) Being left out of eliminations is tough.
Don't get too discouraged -- worlds is a big place for 'skips' like this. We were the highest miss, 13th seed, on Newton 2012. It went up from there. MARS will be fine :)

jijiglobe 21-05-2014 11:58
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1386483)
One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.

Ouch.

-Nick
Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...

kmusa 21-05-2014 14:09
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
We've seen it both ways.

In 2012, 639 was ranked 88th, got picked by 68 and 330, and we ended up as Newton finalists. Ours was definitely a niche robot.

This year, we finished 12th on Arch, ended up 9th after the inpicking, and didn't move on. I would describe it as a typical robot with an effective drive team.

Besides the existing comments on overall difficulty of scouting, and dependency on alliance partners during quals, the conclusion afterwards was that opting to maximize alliance performance meant not making use of our team's best capabilities. Unfortunate, but the team had a great time, and we'll just try harder the next time.

pfreivald 21-05-2014 14:40
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jijiglobe (Post 1386719)
Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...
I don't believe so. Based on our scouting, we didn't anticipate any of the other alliance captains picking each other even before 610 declined.

BigJ 21-05-2014 14:49
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jijiglobe (Post 1386719)
Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1386753)
I don't believe so. Based on our scouting, we didn't anticipate any of the other alliance captains picking each other even before 610 declined.
Even if it was the case, if 610 declined from 9th and the captains realized they would have a better shot at winning without 610 in the eliminations, it's just effective strategy. Nothing to do with "GP". Basically the exact same rationale as a "scorched earth" strategy.

Mr. Lim 21-05-2014 16:29
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jijiglobe (Post 1386719)
Did people deliberately not interpick within the top 8 to leave them out? As far as I can tell it wouldn't be very GP but it seems possible. Just wondering... I have heard of teams picking someone they know will reject them just to stop them from forming an alliance with someone else...
No I don't think that was the case at all, although it's an intriguing question for the future.

I was a mentor on 188 during the 2009 FLR, and I remember alumnus Shankar Manoharan (now a strategy mentor for 2056) correctly predicting that 610 could not decline, or else they would be shut out from playing in the elimination rounds. This was before alliance selections even happened.

Karthik 21-05-2014 17:00
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1386483)
One of the most famous ones I remember is 610 at FLR in 2009.

They were seeded 9th, and declined an invitation from an alliance. None of the top 8 picked each other after that, leaving 610 to sit out on Saturday afternoon.
For historical accuracy, 610 was not the #9 seed at FLR in 2009, rather they were the #12 seed. There was some miscommunication, and their representative thought they were in the #9-10 range, which made them more comfortable with their choice to decline. There was actually significant interpicking within the top 8, with the #11 seed moving up to be the #8 Alliance Captain. The picking went as follows:

#1 picked #3
#2 picked #13
#4 picked #12 (610, who declined) and then picked #24
#5 picked #7
#6 picked #15
#8 picked #9
#10 picked #19
#11 picked #14

I was the MC on the field for this scenario, and it was a very confusing 15 minutes.

pfreivald 21-05-2014 17:14
Re: 9th Seed not Getting Picked for Elims?
 
Thanks for the clarification, Karthik!


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