Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Hey All,
I'm a mentor for Team 4619 looking for some tooling advice. We were lucky enough to receive a monetary grant from a sponsor specifically for new machine tools for our team. We already have a dedicated work-space in the school auto shop (with lots of small hand tools) and decided the best use of this sponsor money would be for a vertical mill and associated tooling. I have limited experience with large machine tools, and would love to get some advice/thoughts on the mill linked below. It fits well within our shop space, available power, and expected manufacturing needs. The price also allows us some room to buy bits and other accessories with the sponsor money. Does anyone have experience with the Grizzly brand? Thanks!

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0758

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

It depends on your budget of course, but look into a Bridgeport knee-mill. You can find some pretty decent ones for not tons of money nowadays. They are bigger, but can also handle larger loads if you need them to.

Edit: If power is a concern as you stated, a Bridgeport may not be within reason. Ours is 3-phase 208volt and I'm not sure if single phase 110 can be found

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

3476 Code Orange has a very similar (if not identical) mill to the Grizzly one linked, and they're pretty close by to you. I bet they'd be willing to show it to you.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

As of right now, we only have access to standard wall outlets in our shop. There has been some discussion of adding some higher voltage hookups in the future, but nothing is certain.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

If that's the size you're looking for, go for the G0704. It's a little bigger and not much more. Also, it has quite an aftermarket for mods (CNC conversions, motor upgrades, Tormach Tool System adapter, and belt drive kits - "Hoss" will become familiar after some light research).

If you have a little more cash, get a PM-30MV-L (these are also the same basic mill as the Grizzly series you posted). I bought one and it is quite a nice machine (pic of mine on pallet). As with almost any mill, it is time well spent to take it apart, clean, grease and lube the ways, reassemble, and tram before use. You'll notice a huge increase in smoothness and feel.

That being said, I've spent more than the mill on tooling and CNC conversion components. Most of my tooling came from Glacern. They have very good Black Friday sales and are great quality for the dollar. I got cutters (cheap and highly likely to break while learning the machine capabilities) from Shars (I got a 3" boring head from them and it is OK - nothing to write home about, but does do the job decently). I'd recommend cheap cutters when students are using it.

A Bridgeport knee mill is still a great option, but it is heavy (forklift required) and doesn't run on 115V. A used one isn't that much more than the PM mill I posted, but it provides a new set of challenges to take into consideration.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I'm going to just copy/paste a response of mine from a similar thread. I know you aren't looking at CNC necessarily, but I think it's something to think about.

Now, if the machine you linked to is about the limit of your price range, you'll likely have a bit of trouble getting into a good router. But I've just found that most of the parts we want to mill end up being sheet material, and a router will get you more work area for the price. Just something to keep in mind.

I haven't used anything like that little Grizzly, but just from the specs it seems like a decent machine. Just keep in mind that you can't expect too much from it, it's not going to have the accuracy or rigidity of a larger machine like a knee mill.

If you can save your money and get a nice used knee mill (bonus points for a DRO), you'll be much better off in the long run.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

It's a giant (well actually small) POS...but if it's what you can fit, it's better than nothing, I suppose.

The Rong Fu RF-45 or the PM-45 (Basically the same thing. Might be some minor fit/finish differences. Probably made in the same factory) are ~3x more, but more than 3x more machine. You can actually do some real work on them and not hate life the entire time.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I bought my first Bridgeport for about twice what this Grizzly cost.

If you're clever you can probably score one for under $1500.

I run my machines from static phase converters...they're not the best solution, but single phase 220v is fairly easy to get access to.

I agree with Cory that Grizzly is more or less junk.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

DO NOT BUY THAT PILE OF POT METAL LOOK FOR NAMES LIKE Bridgeport, supermax, trax , kent

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Not wanting to discount anyone's input - but I'd recommend you beware of the "extreme" responses (both favorable and unfavorable). I have the 0704 in my basement - basically the same machine with a bit bigger table - and it is a very capable machine.

I listened to everyone's advice to find a Bridgeport or Enco etc. etc. but after a year of religiously searching Craigslist and Ebay they just were not available like everyone thinks....and when they are they are in need of massive repairs or adjustments...or they are HUGE...or they require 3 phase. If someone has a nice little Bridgeport in their shop they hold on to it. Yes they can be found, but it is extremely rare.

For the average team (not necessarily the average Cheif Delphi posting team) a mill like this will be a tremendous enhancement. Couple this with a local machine shop or fabrication sponsor for your bigger stuff and you're in business. (plus you might gain a valuable mentor with some great tool-room teaching skills too.)

I wish you were closer - you'd be welcome to come "mill up a storm" to see what you think. Look for one nearby that you can try out.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I'll second the RF-45. There are some knockoffs out there with poor castings but genuine Rong-Fu's are quality machines for the price and size. I've set up two and both continue to run well and treat their novices users well.

I think they're also super popular with the CNC conversion crowd. I'm not sure that that conversion really makes a lot of sense but it does mean there are a lot of folks out there who know the machine inside and out.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

OP, what is the space you have dedicated for the mill? That might have been a good question for us to ask. Floor plans are often assumed large enough for the larger machines these threads. What exactly are your power capabilities? Are there requirements to buy "new" from your sponsor?

Do you have or are you also getting a horizontal and vertical bandsaw, drill press and lathe?

I agree with the sponsor + in-house shop capabilities that Qbot brought up. This is what my team does since we can't fit or afford a waterjet or the 4000 kW laser cutter that one of our sponsors has :)

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

The quality in casting and design and supply of aftermarket parts make the big old machine worth it i got my Bridgeport for 800$ yeah the screws are beat up but its a chassis to rebuild later. For now it's head and shoulders above the LX-329 we have up to school.


http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...457199058.html weird out of date cnc!! convert back!!

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac...475132393.html ---great rig

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...482171177.html

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant...472300972.html T0O cheap!!

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

mine has the drive motor swapped to a off the shelf 110v

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

We recently acquired a Lagun FTV-2 with CNC control, it's been a really nice tool to have around. Speaking to brands, I don't have a favorite, just don't get something cheaper if you can help it (some Grizzly and Jet tools come to mind as being the cheaper end).

I'd suggest searching for a local rigger and/or used tool place nearby you. They tend to get nice used tools sometimes. We had to move our tools last week to a different part of the building, and the rigger made the comment of "I had a FTV-1, had to send it to the scrapper because no one in Philly wants one".

Also, never hurts to ask a local university that has an engineering program if they are upgrading any time soon. Sometimes they give you the machines for the price of moving them out. :D

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Getting a mill with digital readouts (DRO) is worth the extra money.

We have a Enco value priced mill with DRO at the build site. Within its limits it does better than my heavily worn Bridgeport at work & takes less skill to use. The skill part is knowing how to compensate for the wear more than one machine being easier than the other. We also have a 1940s vintage Southbend 9A lathe . I am really fond of it, but having it to do over again, I would have bought a new value priced lathe. While it nice to have industrial quality tools, you are not putting the same hours on them as commercial facility would.

Most of the small mills & lathes can run on less than 1 hp which means single phase 110 or 220 is a possibility. Best with a dedicated circuit though. You can get a single phase VFDs to convert to 3 phase if that is what the motor is.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Yes. We do have one, however I can not recommend this model. It worked okay during the season, however it is prone to breaking and is cheap in general. Go for a used vertical knee style milling machine instead.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Check out the Seig machines offered by DRO pros as well, you can also get a DRO from them at the same time

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

To add to the discussion.

Yes, buying a nice knee mill is good and likely a great option if given the chance. 294 has been extremely lucky that our main sponsor Northrop-Grumman has donated a couple of old Bridgeport knee mills for our shop.

However, I totally hear the things that need to fit in the shop. While our build area was under renovation in 2013 we were displaced into a portable classroom. Realizing we have lost our machining resources and we didn't want to use up all our sponsors time to make tons of brackets or spacers, we purchased a mini-mill and lathe. Namely a G0704 and an Micro-Mark 7x16 lathe.

For all the crap people spout on them, they were a godsend to our team.

Now I will be honest, the lathe turned out to be more of a dud. The tail stock was poorly designed and couldn't maintain alignment even after being trammed. We had to do a lot of adjusting to get the lathe up and running. The mill was absolutely great. Are you going to cut giant pieces while maintaining 1 thou tolerances. no. could you cut simple brackets with semi- tight tolerance holes? actually yes; even without a DRO (we actually taught kids about backlash and how to compensate) you could machine some pretty decent things.

But the biggest thing, was that these little machines turned out to be super student friendly and turned into major workhorses during out 2013 build season. We would have never survived without them and I feel that getting one is not a bad idea. The big caveat is that you need to give them a little bit of TLC. Spend the time disassembling, tramming and dialing things in. Just like you need to do on any machine, a little will take these machines a long way.

Also.. to make things even more interesting. Once we moved back into our normal build space, we decided to convert our G0704 to a CNC. With a little help with the home machinist community and the huge amount of online resources we successfully turned out a pretty nice little CNC machine. Obviously its not a HAAS VF2, but it seriously churned out every bracket, gusset plate and heck even our custom 3CIM gearboxes. Heck it got just as much use as our standard Bridgeport machines. Not too shabby for such a small mill.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Personally, I'd avoid getting any Grizzly tools. They really are crap. My experience is that they fall apart, have manufacturing defects, and are really weak/sloppy. A higher quality mill will be much, much more rigid.

Get a bridgeport, it's really worth it. If you can't get any 220v power, use a VFD converter. A DRO is really nice to have, but not 100% essential.

As for tooling, try asking local companies. We get an incredible number of reground endmills in all shapes and sizes from our sponsor once they have been reground too much and no longer meet their spec, but they work just fine for us.

If you don't have a lathe, I might consider getting one before a mill, but that's just my opinion.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

You can polish a turd and you can make decent to good parts with a crap machine, but there's really no objective argument that the mini mills sold by grizzly (and most other rebadgers of Chinese equipment) are not somewhere between bad and terrible.

Having the ability to spend a bit more money makes a huge difference in maintainability, ease of use, resistance to damage by novice users, and lowers the amount of effort required to produce good parts.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Machinery Parts Depot has a kit for $500 to convert a Bridgeport to single phase power. Its hard to beat a knee mill for flexablity.


http://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/s.../product/SP2SP

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Surely a VFD with 3-phase output is cheaper than that? (And less annoying than having to modify the pulley.)

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I mounted a 1hp 90V DC motor on my knee mill, with the speed controller on the wall, instead of changing pulleys I can dial in my speed

Kelly

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Yeah, a VFD like that is like $150. Plus you get easier speed control (easier than step-pulleys anyway.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I'd love to see some information about this...want to eventually do the same thing with ours.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Try industrial auctions. Some are bankruptcy/liquidation sales and some are just a method of selling surplus equipment. A quick google search for huntington beach industrial auctions gave several hits.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Exactly. This is pretty much where we ended up. Hoss has been super helpful to me and to many others. He is quick and responsive to emails and is willing to help out.


There is a ton of info and several knowledgeable people at cnczone as well.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/

For the electronics we ended up going to
www.cnc4pc.com

The owner Arturo Duncan was super helpful. And he knows all about FIRST as his daughter was part of SPAM's 2012 championship team!

For the control, we had an old PC that we put Mach 3 on. I would recommend getting the Ethernet smooth stepper as it made life super easy not to have to deal with the parallel port.

For the CAM we use HSMworks. if you contact the development team you can request the full version. You need a teacher to do this as they need to be registered through a school district or university. They also have the post processing files for Mach3 so we were able to make chips pretty quickly


As for the conversion. You learn an awful lot about the machine. From tear down to reassembly, you will get to know its weaknesses and strengths. Understand that there are limitations on the machine. Set expectations on what you want out of it. Like I said above don't spend time trying to turn it into a HAAS. It just wont get there.

For us, it turned into a great little machine in which we plan to use to get our students into CNC machining. Thus our students can see and experience the work that goes into making a CNC part, rather than send the part out and the CNC machining fairy brings something back. For future builds we will do simpler parts in house now and send complex parts to our main sponsors.

Best of luck

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

We've had a similar experience.

Made a decent size metal router, fixed up a 2x2 wood router than 294 (thanks!) gave us years ago, and recently converting a full size knee mill.

I know you like your little machine, and your points are all valid... but I think everyone would agree that the biggest (And closest to full size machine) you can get, the better.

Certainly that machine versus no machine is AWESOME though.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Exactly. I don't think anyone will disagree about the Bridgeport being a better manual machine for the money. I think that the benchtop machines, which sometimes are the largest machine someone can realistically acquire, are not given much acceptance.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

We faced a similar decision last year, all the research pointed us to a Bridgeport but it was not possible at that point in time. One option was to wait to raise enough funds and have the space for a cheap used knee mill. We choose to get a Grizzly G1006 this allowed us to introduced our students to machining and bring in house the capability to make custom parts. A Year later I do not regret our decision. In time we will get a Bridgeport (a few years). We decided that a cheap Chinese machine now is better than a good machine in the future. Read other similar threads here. Keep us posted of what equipment you buy in the end. Good luck.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

We picked up a used bridgeport for $700 it even came with a nice DRO. its in good condition (1/8 slop in x) they even threw in the vice when we told them were a first team. look on craigslist we had to drive an hour to get it but it was well worth it.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Thanks for all of the great advice that has been provided in this thread. The consensus seems to be that it is very much worth spending the extra money to get a full size Bridgeport machine, which I definitely agree with. With a few changes and the addition of a 220V power source (or a converter) our shop could accommodate a full size machine. My main reasons for seeking out the Grizzly machines is the price. Our team has only been around for two years and is still trying to establish steady fundraising and team structure. Until that happens, I'm not super comfortable spending a large portion of our budget on a nice, full-size machine (especially when there are other tools that we need to acquire). I'm glad to hear that people have had some success with the G0704. I'm going to keep and eye on Craigslist and check around local tool shops to see if I stumble on a well priced full size mill, but I would like to have a machine in place before the Fall to begin training the students. Thanks again for the help!

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Get friendly with local machine shops and network. They will know other shops.

Most are happy to help once you get to know them. You could possibly get a machine for free!

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Try contacting the National Tooling and Machining Association. They have a chapter in L.A. www.lantma.org, or San Diego http://www.ntmasandiegochapter.org/

They might be able to help out.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I think equipment procurement will be a major topic for the OCRA meeting on July 19. I am looking at 3309 and 3476 wishlist and both are very long. I think everyone is orange county wants a knee mill. I almost got one last year for 3309 for free but we could not get a truck in time to move it. I bet if orange county teams put our heads together, we should be able to dig up a few knee mills, DROs, and perhaps a CNC conversion kit or two.

This would be a good time to start talking about trading parts. 3309 traded with 766 in the past.

Also 3309 and 3476 are both working of safety documents, I think that could be a good shared resource that all the orange county teams could work together on.

I think I will be going to the bonfire we could chat there too.

PM me your contact info and I will make sure your part of the orange county teams discussion on new equipment.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Great idea! Thanks!

PM sent.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Another vote for finding a Bridgeport, and if you do you'll become spoiled!

A Bridgeport was a staple of machine shops years ago, and still are in some cases for one off jobs, but with most stuff going CNC they are becoming easily available as shops upgrade if you look hard enough. I just got one donated (tax exempt 501c3) that was well taken care of and gone over once a year. It was no longer needed and the company was willing to take the tax write off, pic of it below after I unloaded it in it's new home. Look hard enough and get out the word you're looking for one and chances are you'll find one. Being maintained this particular one had little backlash and good ways. Takes a standard R8 collet, a complete set of collets was included too, in addition to being equipped with a DRO.

Depending on how you set up the motor this one is good from 208v 3ph to 480v 3ph.

The only cost I had was $210 for a roll back. The pallet and banding was free from work.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. I wanted to necro it to provide an update. After taking stock of our budget for this year (trying to go to two regionals for the first time), the space available in our shop, and scouring Craigslist all summer, we have decided to go with the G704 from Grizzly. While it is certainly not a Bridgeport, I think having this will be better than having nothing at all. The fact that there are resources that describe how to convert it to a CNC is also a huge bonus.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dril...th-Stand/G0704

Now for my next question. Bits and accessories! What mill bits would you recommend to start off with? Brands? Any additional accessories we should consider? Any good guides for general maintenance or best practices? Thanks again!

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

You might regret the Grizzly in the future. I've found that being able to take large cuts, extra work envelope, and just the sheer size of a Bridgeport is hard to beat. Although recently I have been looking into horizontal mills as lathe/mill combos.

That being said, for tooling, you will want at least:
-3/16" end mill (for milling 10-32 and 1/4"-20 clearance slots)
-1/2" end mill(for general purpose milling)(get a double-ended one of these)
-3/4" (for making existing holes larger)
-Small boring head (for boring out holes for press fits)LMS has it
-R8 Collet set for 1/16", 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4".
-Taps, for 4-40 through 1/4"-20 in all the normal imperial sizes. This depends on what your team does, but those are the ones I've used.
-Drill chuck for at least up to 3/8" drils (do not use this for endmills)
-Drill set. Numbers and fractionals at least, letter drills if you can get them. Buy shortish drills if you can, as you will probably rarely need a Jobbers size. I don't think in 3 years I've ever used anything longer than 2", and most of the time it's <= 1".
-Set of single-flue countersinks. Get 2 or 3 sizes. Fantastic for deburring holes quickly.
-1/8" thick set of parallels. You need several sizes.
-Vise. Get a quality vise, or at least one designed for machine work. A regular driling vise will not work. We have a vise with angles markings on its base, which is very useful.
-Deablow or soft face hammer to seat stock on the parallels.
-Other stuff that I've missed in this list. :P

Measuring tools are an entirely diferrent story. I'm going to list the ones I think you can get by on.

-6" calipers. Get good ones. Mitutoyo or Brown and Sharpe are good brands, but I prefer the former as they are consistently good across the board. Digital ones are good because you can reset the zero to whatever you like. Mitutoyo digital calipers are around $50 on ebay.
-12" ruler. Get one that has divisions in the 0.01" range, not a regular one. Better would be a 12" caliper.
-If you get a 36" ruler you can make side 2x1s for a WCD.
-Vise stop. Very useful to take stuff out for the vise to measure it.
-Small clamps. I'm partial to these, as I use them to clamp multiple plates together often, and they're strong. Other types will work.
-Edgefinder. Spend $15 on ebay and get yourself a Brown and Sharpe or other band-name version. These determine quite a bit of your tolerances.
-Test indicator. Get the type that looks like this. They're good for finding the center of holes and aligning the vise to the head.
-Electronic protractor. Good for making angles. It will read 90* when on a wall. You tilt it to find angles.
-Combination square.
-Scribe (Like a pointy metal pencil).
-Sharpies.
-Scientific calculator (just have one on hand. An iphone will do).

A DRO would be a great addition, but they are expensive. However, even a cheap DRO is better than none.

I have heard that 1-2-3 blocks are good to have, as well as v-blocks, but I have never used them for our parts. There was never any part big enough ot strange enough to justify using them. However, you might want to pick up a clamping set anyway, because your vise will likely be smaller than ours so you might need the clamps.
I used the above the most out off all the ~$6k of machining-specific tools the woodshop teacher has.
I will edit this later to include more stuff, but I think I got the basics.

You won't want to run an end mill larger than 1/2". Anything bigger is highly likely to chatter and bog the motor down.

As for end mills? Get cheap two flute ones since they're going to be broken by the students most likely :)

Honestly, I think you've done your homework and walking in well educated.

I'm not sure about the boring head. I got a 3" indexable tooling set from Shars that is OK. It cuts well and leaves a nice surface finish; however, the adjustment screw has quite a bit of backlash that I want to try to resolve. I think LMS and Shars are made by the same manufacturer.

If you want to go CNC, you can most likely skip the DRO.

Get a good machining vise. The Shars ones have been said to be pretty good for the dollar, and for FRC applications "good" is usually good enough. For the G0704, a 4" vise is probably the right size unless you want to machine the end off of a 5" to clear the column on some cuts.

I really like my Glacern ER16 and ER25 tool holders, vises, and face mill. I bought them in November when everything is a lot cheaper (Black November sale).

Always try the sponsorship card when acquiring new hardware. We tried Grizzly, but I don't think they do donations or educational discounts of equipment. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Monster Jaws sells cheap ($80-85 for 10 pairs of 4") soft jaws that you might find useful later on.

And whatever you do, take that mill completely apart when you get it and clean and relubeeverything. You'll find out why as soon as you use it the first time after reassembly. You can tram it following the hossmachine guide on YouTube. It's pretty easy to do and you should be able to get it aligned very well.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I think the gears in the head/ belt will die before the end mills do if you crash. Those Grizzly mills have problems with that.

We use two flute end mills for aluminum because they can remove more metal due to the large flutes (according to my teacher). However, for such a small/ low HP mill four flute may be better for removal of metal. 4 flute is not that much more expensive than 2 flute.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

The grizzly mill is what I consider a hobby grade machine. It will do a fine as long as it taken care of. Now with that said it can not take much abuse. Check with grizzly for the availability of repair parts.
Find recommended cutting conditions from the cutting tool manufacturer. Start with the lowest and be gentle with it.
WWW.use-enco.com and Harbor Freight.com will be good place to start for pricing when you are buying tooling for the machine.
I would not recommended converting it to a CNC. It just is not rigid enough to last very long. Keep looking for a deal or a sponsor for a knee mill with a CNC retrofit.
Just my .02

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Your result may vary, I've heard of a lot of these being fake. Keep in mind a new set of Mitutoyo digital calipers go for around the $120 range for a 6" and closer to $190 for a 8".

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

True, but many of them come with the certification. If you have the money, new is better, but you can open an Ebay case if it's fake.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

Don't cheap out on calipers. You will be amazed at how often they are used, and while there are many very capable brands - the good ones are smooth and just feel perfect. We got a "medium level" 6" caliper last year and the kids use them constantly. But they are no where near as nice as my old, beat-up Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharp, or Starret models.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

One the other side of the fence. I buy Harbor Freight calipers for general use. They are noticeably not as nice as Starret or Mitutoyo. But they are also a 10th of the cost. I can loan them out without requiring a first born as collateral for their safe return. Somebody mikes a moving grinding wheel, I can laugh.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

I really agree with Frank on this. I bought the $17-20 pair of Neiko 6" calipers on Amazon. You can get 6 of those or one Mitutoyo. If they break from misuse or accidents, it's less costly to replace.

FRC isn't ISO 9001. Hobby mills and cheap calipers get the job done just fine.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

We use two calipers. One is in the machining tool box, where everything is nice and sorted and clean (and I like to keep it that way), and the other is in the communal toolbox, where things get bumped around with the rulers and the like. Both are in their own boxes. However, even after ~5 or 6 years of constant use, the ones in the communal toolbox are still accurate to +- 0.001", or better. Both are Brown and Sharpe dial calipers bought for about $100 each years ago by one of our mentors. Good tools last, as long as students are told how to use them properly.

Re: Vertical Mill for FRC
 

For manual machines, we really like the hss end mills from latheinserts.com.