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-   -   [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130059)

dcribbs 15-07-2014 22:48
[FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
The 2014-2015 Game Manual (Part 1) is now online!

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...ual_Part_I.pdf

Just had time for a quick scan but noticed a few things right away...

New Items:
Section 3: Youth Protection Program
-sad what this says about our society, but definitely needed

Section 4.8 Advancement Criteria
-detailed to 41 places!

Section 6 Robot
<R04>
b. All post-processed materials are allowed provided they are readily available to the majority of teams from
standard distributers (e.g. McMaster-Carr, Home Depot, AndyMark, etc.).

Examples of allowable post processed materials are:
 perforated sheet and diamond plate
 Injection molded parts
 3D printed parts

I think it is new this year to have "post processed materials" - should make the folks happy who have struggled with the TETRIX axles and other KOP items.

c. COTS parts and assemblies may only have a maximum of a single degree of freedom. It is the intent of FIRST
that teams design and build their devices to achieve the game challenge. Assemblies of COTS components, such
as linear slides, and gearboxes are allowed while a pre-fabricated gripper assembly designed to grab the game
elements is not. Holonomic wheels (omni or mechanum) are exempt from the one degree of freedom
limitation.


Part c limits items to one degree of freedom with some exceptions

Looks like FTC is continuing to open up the list of resources teams are allowed to use!

What else do you see?

safiq10 16-07-2014 01:02
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Our FTC noticed RG11 was changed!

Jeremy Germita 16-07-2014 01:18
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
R09.b
A maximum total of eight (8) TETRIX /AM-2964 motors (in any combination) or eight (8) MATRIX DC motors are
allowed and must be controlled by a compatible TETRIX or MATRIX controller. A Robot is constructed with either
TETRIX /AndyMark or MATRIX DC motors, not both.
Emphasis mine.

While its not listed on Andymark yet, I'm still excited about more motor options outside of Tetrix!

Also:
Quote:
R09
Gearboxes may be replaced and repaired with replacement parts that are equivalent (identical in performance) to the
original.
Glad this is allowed. In a pinch, my teams were able to salvage working parts from old tetrix motors(individual gears, the gearbox assembly, etc) and hodgepodge together a working motor. Glad to know that it's competition legal.

maths222 16-07-2014 08:27
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
1 Attachment(s)
I ran a comparison between the past two years game manuals. Here you go: (it is attached)

MattRain 16-07-2014 18:04
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Im excited to see if these AM-2964 motors are stronger.:)

cadandcookies 16-07-2014 18:11
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattRain (Post 1393403)
Im excited to see if these AM-2964 motors are stronger.:)
I'm excited to see them too. Especially with all the complaints about Tetrix motors, I'm hoping AM can deliver the motor FTC has needed.

I'm also very excited to see materials restrictions opened up-- some of my teams are going to be juniors next year, and they'll really appreciate the added flexibility they now have.

This just has me more excited for Kickoff in September!

safiq10 16-07-2014 18:11
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Im having trouble finding these AM-2964 could someone post a link to it?

MattRain 16-07-2014 19:18
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
A link has not been given yet.:]

safiq10 16-07-2014 21:12
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Alright that is reassuring I thought I was going crazy when I couldn't find the motor.

ehochstein 16-07-2014 21:34
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
I spoke with an AndyMark rep - details will of course be posted on the website when it comes out but it sounds like the motor has the same speed and torque but the life span could be up to 2 times greater. We won't really know until the motor is released of course.

CENTURION 17-07-2014 00:37
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
d. High traction wheels, eg. AM- 2256, that may damage the playing field are not allowed.
Noooooooooooooooo!

The 4" HiGrips are awesome!

Nemo 17-07-2014 08:37
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Overall, I'm pretty thrilled with the increased flexibility in this year's rules.

We'll need a long string of Q&A's to ask about legality of specific wheels.

I thought we'd see a weight limit this year. It seems weird to allow these robots to be 50 lbs, 70 lbs, etc.

My wish for 2016 is a completely new control system (brain, radio, motor controllers, motors). But mechanically, FTC is in a great place, and we should see some pretty sweet machines this year.

ehochstein 17-07-2014 10:47
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo (Post 1393498)
My wish for 2016 is a completely new control system (brain, radio, motor controllers, motors). But mechanically, FTC is in a great place, and we should see some pretty sweet machines this year.
As soon as we see those RobotC bugs worked out for the eV3, I'm sure we will.

MattRain 17-07-2014 12:51
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CENTURION (Post 1393480)
Noooooooooooooooo!

The 4" HiGrips are awesome!
They are awesome. But, as a team who loans their full field out, we hate them chewing up our mats.

aklego 17-07-2014 17:17
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Details about the new Andy Mark motor are here:

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/AM-2964.htm

I'm excited about the built-in encoder but a bit apprehensive about the plastic gear.

MattRain 17-07-2014 17:47
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklego (Post 1393529)
Details about the new Andy Mark motor are here...

....but a bit apprehensive about the plastic gear.
WHY?, WHY? must there be plastic. Come on FTC, we need some good motors.

CENTURION 18-07-2014 00:52
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattRain (Post 1393513)
They are awesome. But, as a team who loans their full field out, we hate them chewing up our mats.
Huh, we ran them for one regional, two scrimmages (think slightly-smaller-regional), and a couple outreach events on our mats (actually, all those events were on the same mats, we provide two fields for the regional, and run the scrimmages), never had any damage.

I guess you'd see more damage if teams are running them without a dropped-center?

What kind of damage were you seeing? Do you know how the wheel caused it?

MattRain 18-07-2014 13:15
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Chucks or rips here and there. Part of it was probably the non dropped-center robots. We only had a little bit of damage, but we would like to get a few seasons out of one set of pads and we are on our third set now.

Recondelta090 18-07-2014 20:13
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
From what I saw, previous rule, 2013-14 Game Manual Rule <R08>n.6 was not included in this year's game manual.
Quote:
vi. The processor included in the Prototype Board may not be reprogrammed.
Although, it says nothing in the rules about it being allowed to be programmed either.
Also, I think it may be helpful in some cases that a 9V battery can be used to power the Prototype Board.

ehochstein 19-07-2014 12:02
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
I grabbed some pictures from IRI of the new motor and a 2 speed shifting gearbox!

CENTURION 19-07-2014 16:16
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
That's really cool and all, and I'd love to use it in a drivetrain just for cool factor. But holy whoah it's huge. Can you even fit two of those across from each other in a robot?

Honestly, with the size of the field, and the amount of stuff that's on it, I don't see a need for shifting. There's not enough space to really get up to speed anyway.

Nemo 19-07-2014 17:13
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CENTURION (Post 1393721)
That's really cool and all, and I'd love to use it in a drivetrain just for cool factor. But holy whoah it's huge. Can you even fit two of those across from each other in a robot?

Honestly, with the size of the field, and the amount of stuff that's on it, I don't see a need for shifting. There's not enough space to really get up to speed anyway.
In my opinion, there is a place for shifters in FTC. A heavy FTC robot with decently grippy wheels (such as rubber lego tires) has to be geared really slow to be traction limited.

atucker4072 19-07-2014 21:09
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
I was also at IRI and was told by someone who worked on the new motor that all the gears were metal and there was no plastic gears.

wgardner 20-07-2014 07:48
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 (Post 1393784)
I was also at IRI and was told by someone who worked on the new motor that all the gears were metal and there was no plastic gears.
I hope you're right. The AndyMark datasheet specifically says that the first stage is plastic and the rest are steel, but maybe they're still early in their design and can be convinced to make them all steel, given the issues that Tetrix had with plastic gears last year?

safiq10 20-07-2014 08:04
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CENTURION (Post 1393721)
That's really cool and all, and I'd love to use it in a drivetrain just for cool factor. But holy whoah it's huge. Can you even fit two of those across from each other in a robot?

Honestly, with the size of the field, and the amount of stuff that's on it, I don't see a need for shifting. There's not enough space to really get up to speed anyway.
I also agree with you in that the field is too small for a shifter. But I can see it being used in mechanism designs. The most immediate design would be a winch system that FRC used this year.

atucker4072 20-07-2014 11:04
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by safiq10 (Post 1393809)
I also agree with you in that the field is too small for a shifter. But I can see it being used in mechanism designs. The most immediate design would be a winch system that FRC used this year.
Say the game calls for speed like Block Party did. That's great you realize it and you build a fast robot that can zip around the field. Okay someone plays defense on you. Would you rather have to try and make a move around them and possibly have to around to the other side of the field or would you rather shift and be able to just push them out of your way?

JohnFogarty 21-07-2014 13:47
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 (Post 1393814)
Say the game calls for speed like Block Party did. That's great you realize it and you build a fast robot that can zip around the field. Okay someone plays defence on you. Would you rather have to try and make a move around them and possibly have to around to the other side of the field or would you rather shift and be able to just push them out of your way?
If your image is some insane resolution could you just link the image instead of embedding it....the image is too big for my browser even in 1080p mode.

Coming from someone who has used shifters in FRC before. You would much rather design a system that can escape pushing as opposed to something that could just plow through something.

There's no glaring need for shifters in the FTC drivetrain, but I can see it being useful in mechanism design. I hope those gears in the AM motors are all metal. I don't want to have to experience the plastic any-more.

ehochstein 21-07-2014 15:35
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFogarty (Post 1393888)
If your image is some insane resolution could you just link the image instead of embedding it....the image is too big for my browser even in 1080p mode.
I apologize for that, uploaded a few minutes after taking them on my cell phone and by the time I had time to go back and fix it, the edit button was gone...

MattRain 22-07-2014 17:34
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
There is not a limit this year to the size of the wheels. 4in limitation is gone.

orangemoore 22-07-2014 17:57
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattRain (Post 1393995)
There is not a limit this year to the size of the wheels. 4in limitation is gone.
That is so awesome!

Neutrinos6433 23-07-2014 10:25
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 (Post 1393814)
Say the game calls for speed like Block Party did. That's great you realize it and you build a fast robot that can zip around the field. Okay someone plays defense on you. Would you rather have to try and make a move around them and possibly have to around to the other side of the field or would you rather shift and be able to just push them out of your way?
Are we sure a shifting gear box is legal? I would think it is a COTS with more than one degree of freedom. Only COTS with one degree of freedom are allowed. In a shifting gearbox, one degree of freedom is rotational and the other degree of freedom is translation (for shifting).

In fact a non shifting gearbox could be considered having more than one degree of freedom as each gear has its own axis and different rotational direction. All this will have to be clarified in the official forums, but your comments at this time will be appreciated.

atucker4072 23-07-2014 11:55
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Andy Mark is updating the information on the link to the motor to say that all the gears are metal! No more plastic gears!

atucker4072 23-07-2014 12:01
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrinos6433 (Post 1394073)
Are we sure a shifting gear box is legal? I would think it is a COTS with more than one degree of freedom. Only COTS with one degree of freedom are allowed. In a shifting gearbox, one degree of freedom is rotational and the other degree of freedom is translation
When I talked with the person that had been working with it, it was specifically designed for FTC. The goal of it was to make smaller of the shifter that 4251 had built this year. That's all I know.

jcarr 24-07-2014 00:22
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
I think that the shifter has two degrees of freedom and don't think that it would be legal under the rules as written unless the forum specifically allows it. However, the ability to use COTS gear housings may make it easier to build your own.

atucker4072 24-07-2014 00:35
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarr (Post 1394176)
I think that the shifter has two degrees of freedom and don't think that it would be legal under the rules as written unless the forum specifically allows it. However, the ability to use COTS gear housings may make it easier to build your own.
They did have a single speed gear box actually. It was about as half as thick as the shifter. Other than that it was the same size. Basically a smaller FRC single speed gear box.

aklego 24-07-2014 15:05
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker4072 (Post 1394086)
Andy Mark is updating the information on the link to the motor to say that all the gears are metal! No more plastic gears!
This is an outstanding development. Does anybody from the FRC world know if AM usually supplies repair parts for their motors?

safiq10 24-07-2014 18:01
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklego (Post 1394223)
This is an outstanding development. Does anybody from the FRC world know if AM usually supplies repair parts for their motors?
Generally in FRC the motors don't have replacement parts but the gearboxes do, I asked andymark and they said there are currently no plans on the motor having replacement parts.

JohnFogarty 31-07-2014 10:57
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by safiq10 (Post 1394254)
Generally in FRC the motors don't have replacement parts but the gearboxes do, I asked andymark and they said there are currently no plans on the motor having replacement parts.
I've never in my days ever thought I would want to replace parts of a motor. Now a motor-gearbox combo like the Tetrix motors are, that's a different story.

ftcTeam6389 15-08-2014 23:30
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklego (Post 1393529)
Details about the new Andy Mark motor are here:

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/AM-2964.htm

I'm excited about the built-in encoder but a bit apprehensive about the plastic gear.
what plastic gear? the specs say "Gear Material: Steel"

confused.

orangemoore 16-08-2014 00:29
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftcTeam6389 (Post 1396618)
what plastic gear? the specs say "Gear Material: Steel"

confused.
When the product was first released it had a single plastic gear and then they changed them all to steel.

Smart Move Andymark!

Snakebyte 4546 30-08-2014 12:15
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
So I was wondering what ya'll thought about the rules regarding the SuperPro board and accessories. The rules aren't incredibly specific regarding this but it seems like it IS legal to have two 9V batteries, one for the SuperPro and one for visible LEDs (if they aren't robot controlled). But, if they are being controlled by an Arduino Micro (Which seems to also be legal, <R11>.D.ii) Can they technically be considered "Non ROBOT controlled, thus allowing for an independent 9V battery? This is what we interpreted. Any thoughts?

-Snakebyte 4546

Robo Hamsters 31-08-2014 22:37
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrinos6433 (Post 1394073)
Are we sure a shifting gear box is legal? I would think it is a COTS with more than one degree of freedom. Only COTS with one degree of freedom are allowed. In a shifting gearbox, one degree of freedom is rotational and the other degree of freedom is translation (for shifting).
I think it would be legal per R04c

Quote:
COTS parts and assemblies may only have a maximum of a single degree of freedom. It is the intent of FIRST that teams design and build their devices to achieve the game challenge. Assemblies of COTS components, such as linear slides, and gearboxes are allowed while a pre-fabricated gripper assembly designed to grab the game elements is not. Holonomic wheels (omni or mechanum) are exempt from the one degree of freedom limitation.

Examples of single degree of freedom COTS components are:
  • Hinges
  • Sprockets
  • Gears of any type, including Rack and Pinion gears
  • Simple and compound gear trains
  • Planetary gear trains
  • Lazy Susan
Just my thought, but as always it should be asked in the FTC Q&A.

JesseK 01-09-2014 15:24
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo Hamsters (Post 1398589)
I think it would be legal per R04c



Just my thought, but as always it should be asked in the FTC Q&A.
Compound in the context of gearboxes could also mean a single speed, multi-reduction gearbox, such as an am toughbox. It is with Q&A before a purchase is made, IMO.

Robo Hamsters 01-09-2014 20:40
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1398642)
Compound in the context of gearboxes could also mean a single speed, multi-reduction gearbox, such as an am toughbox. It is with Q&A before a purchase is made, IMO.
Very true. Definitely a Q&A issue.

skatefriday 02-09-2014 14:14
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakebyte 4546 (Post 1398485)
So I was wondering what ya'll thought about the rules regarding the SuperPro board and accessories. The rules aren't incredibly specific regarding this but it seems like it IS legal to have two 9V batteries, one for the SuperPro and one for visible LEDs (if they aren't robot controlled). But, if they are being controlled by an Arduino Micro (Which seems to also be legal, <R11>.D.ii) Can they technically be considered "Non ROBOT controlled, thus allowing for an independent 9V battery? This is what we interpreted. Any thoughts?

-Snakebyte 4546
We powered an led light strip via the main robot battery pack, running
it through a 7805 voltage regulator (with a huge heat sink) last year.

We had a schematic of the voltage regulation circuit and a fully educated
team member for judging should a judge question the setup.

Note that all microcontrollers, which includes an arduino, must be
powered from the superpro protoboard, and it can only supply
something along the lines of 8mA. A stock arduino will draw 20mA,
so we ran a barebones ATmega328 to drive the led strip.

Writeup here:

http://degreesplato.wordpress.com/20...s-need-lights/

Snakebyte 4546 03-09-2014 23:01
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skatefriday (Post 1398735)
We powered an led light strip via the main robot battery pack, running
it through a 7805 voltage regulator (with a huge heat sink) last year.

We had a schematic of the voltage regulation circuit and a fully educated
team member for judging should a judge question the setup.

Note that all microcontrollers, which includes an arduino, must be
powered from the superpro protoboard, and it can only supply
something along the lines of 8mA. A stock arduino will draw 20mA,
so we ran a barebones ATmega328 to drive the led strip.

Writeup here:

http://degreesplato.wordpress.com/20...s-need-lights/
I remember reading in the new game manual that external 9V ARE allowed this year.

Quote:
[B]Game Manual Part 1 2014-2015: <R11>.D.i[/b]

All power used in the circuits connected to the Prototype Board must be derived from the power
connections provided within the board including the board’s optional additional 9V battery.
If this is the case ya'll CAN use your actual Arduino with a 9V power. Thoughts?

--

skatefriday 04-09-2014 13:27
Re: [FTC]: 2014-2015 Game Manual Part 1 Now Online
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakebyte 4546 (Post 1398930)
I remember reading in the new game manual that external 9V ARE allowed this year.



If this is the case ya'll CAN use your actual Arduino with a 9V power. Thoughts?

--
Yup, that's new. Thanks for pointing it out.

It appears that the current draw limitations are removed if you are
powering the board from a battery as opposed to the NXT. This should
make it far easier for teams to start doing interesting things with an
Arduino.

The next step would be to allow teams to build a voltage regulation
circuit around a 7805 or 7809 and power it straight from the robot's
main battery pack.


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