Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

This is something that has been discussed at every LRI training I've been to in NH.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

So you're saying it's official policy to not trust teams?

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

It is more of a guideline. :yikes: :)

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

Trust has to have limits at some point... otherwise why have inspections at all? For the most part, I trust that all teams do what they think is proper, appropriate, and legal. However, I also know that many teams don't read/understand the rules fully, and as a consequence they make mistakes and need someone to help them increase their understanding so they can compete on the same level as everyone else.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

So presumably you'd talk to a team reminding them they can't go to a match with air from that compressor and call it good, or would you still ask they remove the compressor because you don't trust them to follow the rules?

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

For me personally, that's a non-issue... all the events in Minnesota do not meet the power requirements for a shop compressor in the pits, and we ask teams to remove it based on that alone.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

So can we agree that #2 is not a good reason?

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

If only that were true, ask any LRI.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

Sorry to comment so late at the party, but there are few things that I would love to see change.

1.) Require soft start valves for pneumatics on a robot. This prevents rapid influx of air when connected to high pressure source. First can get them preset to a curtain fill rate and this only applies until the system reaches pressure. I personally can think of ten ways this would make events/robots safer but it is the one that I can't that are the most important.

2.)require Silencers/mufflers - for the love of robots please!

3.) relax the tubing size rules to allow for running larger manifolds. Feeding a 8 position manifold with the same size tubing as the outputs really limits the effectiveness of a lot of systems. A few times, we have used multiple regulators and smaller manifolds to skirt this rule. Plus with the way the current KOP is structured a team would have to have a reason to move off the more or less standard parts. This could easily be done by an ID area rule (for example if running 8 position manifold with 8 valves the max ID = sqrt(.161^2*number of valves).

4.) allow for different pressure sensors - please let me use a sunx :-)

5.) In the future, I would love to see the pneumatics module have a pressure transducer were you would plug an air line into; just to simplify things and provide a estimated pressure. That would just be nice.

Just an idea or two

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

FIRST trusts teams on many levels. Why should we have issues trusting teams to not use a shop air compressor to fill their robot? Compared to things like bag and tag, filling your robot with an air compressor is a pretty unimportant (and relatively safe, compared to other stupid things teams have done) thing to worry about. If you're going to disallow shop air compressors, you should only allow each team to bring one battery, as they could sneak in a second battery on their robot after inspection.

FIRST only works because we trust teams not to cheat in a high school engineering competition.

Shop air compressors should never be disallowed. There are very low power versions (less than 5 amps) that should meet power limits for most competitions.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

There is one other potential reason for teams to want to use "shop air".

If you've got a properly sized compressor, you've got a very reliable and steady source of power for your tools, and possibly smaller tools to transport. If you use a cordless tool, you'll probably run out of charged batteries at some point, particularly if you've only got one or two batteries to start with. And if you've used corded tools, they're only good for as long as their cord, or you're using an extension cord, while an air line coils neatly but extends as long as you'd need it.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

One of the reasons many teams love pneumatics is the speed at which they actuate, I seriously hope this does not become a rule. We loved having the ability to use a valve with a higher Cv value this year specifically.

For pressure sensor, check out this one from ebay, we used them on the robot this year to monitor both high and low pressure sides of the system.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

+1 One the pressure sensor, We used it last year (Thanks CD for a previous post recommending it). It a was key factor in a QF buzzer shot for a win.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

It would be difficult to manage this rule, yes, but I think this would encourage better quality in pneumatic work. I won't name any specific teams/years, but I have seen a number of robots with a ridiculous number of tanks, that still struggle with having enough air in match.

That makes sense. Perhaps rules could be changed to allow any teams to use external compressors, but specifically state that two compressors can't be used at the same time? My team always uses on-board compressors and we've never had any serious problems with having enough air in-match, but with some of the crazy things we saw teams doing with pneumatics this year, it would be cool to see more relaxed rules in the future.

At the events I've been to, it doesn't seem like a lack of trust, but inspectors are strict. This hold teams to a high standard, and inspectors are generally very consistent. Also, on the topic of shop compressors, my team has never encountered trouble with having a compressor in our pit. We use it almost exclusively for our rivet gun, and it stays hidden away inside of a cabinet when not in use.

Re: Pneumatic Restrictions & Improvments
 

We were allowed one type of tank and up to 4 of them. It was really simple to check.