[FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Posted on the FRC Blog, 8/7/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...s-To-Four-Days

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Frank. You just trolled me so hard.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

"Hope we didn't cause any panic"?!?!?!?

There wasn't any panic when I saw the dates on the website - I figured they were just counting load-in day, as it turns out they were... but when I saw the title of the blog post...

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

*wipes sweat off of brow*

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

*Gently sets down pitchfork*

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Now Frank, will you PLEASE consider directing local regionals to allow teams to set up their pit areas during load-in night? It is SO much safer and easier than in the rush of things on the first morning. To be blunt, the existing schedule and limitation on setup is stupid.

We load in all our stuff Wednesday night, completely filling the 10x10 area, then Thursday morning we move it ALL out of the 10x10 area completely, blocking the aisle and getting in the way of numerous people, and then assemble back into our pit area piece by piece properly. While the pit setup is taking place, we usually move the robot to a vacant hallway or other area to prepare it for inspection. It's a very disruptive process to all parties in attendance, and we take up 3 pit areas worth of space doing it.

Just let us set up the pit on load-in night when hardly anybody is there.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

^ Please Frank

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The reason that has been explained to me that they don't allow pit set up is not all teams are able to make it to the competition venue until practice day (Thursday). It gives the teams that are there the night before possibly a very large time advantage which is not fair to the other teams. I wish that setting up the night before was a possibility but at this point it wouldn't be fair.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

We don't have this in districts anymore but I will chime in that under the regional system this really should be considered.

It really wasn't worth the time to drive 25 minutes to the venue, spend 10 minutes unloading, and then drive 25 minutes home to spend 10 minutes the next morning clearing the pit again and in everyone's way.

I know the first argument regarding not making this change is it will give an unfair advantage to teams who couldn't make it the night before for some reason or another but whatever "advantage" that is there is minimal. Even when we have to setup our pit there is always a few hands tearing apart the robot as needed during setup or what many teams do now which is to not even setup their pits until Thursday night when the robot work is complete. We had to wait nearly two hours after doors opened to get into our first district event but that didn't stop us and our laundry list of to-dos.

Its little things like this that can make events less stressful on everyone that they just won't do for one reason or another.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

We're not allowed to unbag our robots until Thursday anyway, why shouldn't we be allowed to just set up our pit?

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If the event dates include the load in day as a fourth day, than it is hardly an unfair advantage. It is another day of the competition that teams can choose whether or not this is something they wish to take advantage of or not. I fail to see how a scheduled day of the event is leading to an unfair advantage to certain teams.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I have now gone into cardiac arrest.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

With the current set up restrictions, we actually are at somewhat of a competitive disadvantage compared to teams with a minimal amount of "stuff" they bring to their pit. We bring everything we could ever need, and everything we own that our partners or any other team could ever need. We know many teams are not well equipped, so we like to be, not only for our benefit but also for theirs. Also, we like for the pit area to be a showplace, not a haphazard work - on - the - floor trainwreck like 80+% of them are. It takes some time to put this all together. While it may give us an advantage in judged awards, it's most certainly a disadvantage on the field because we are still setting up the pit when teams with less stuff are passed on inspection and out practicing.

And on the topic of practice, Frank, why the heck do we close the field SO early on practice day? It kills us for a perfectly good Field to be sitting right there, and not being able to use it past 4PM or whatever it is when practice day goes until 8PM. We pay an aweful lot to just stand around and look at an empty field Thursday night.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

My team has never done an early load in (Wednesday night) because the venue wasn't close enough to warrant driving there, nor was it far enough away that we couldn't just leave early in the morning and save on hotel costs. There hasn't been an advantage for us to do Wednesday load-in. Even with the 5-person early crew on Thursday, the load-in but not set up rule has to be one of the most annoying things about regional competitions. Robots are all in bags, so we can't open them and work on it until the prescribed time anyway. Especially because of the same-day early load in, there is no advantage given to a team by allowing them to set up early if everyone has the opportunity.

It's also rather annoying to be placing our un-set up pit objects in the space and arranging them to fit while a smug inspector yells at us that we're not allowed to set up. I calmly explain that if items aren't arranged properly, we violate the sacred pit space boundaries. It causes unnecessary stress in a timeframe where it's already stressful.

There is no real advantage gained by allowing us to set up our pit early and actually would help in terms of efficiency. We always hear that getting through inspection is a top priority, well, it would be a lot easier to get a robot ready for inspection if the pit was set up ahead of time. This also allows teams to check if there's a problem with electricity provided to the pit (we've encountered this multiple times over the years) before serious work has to begin on the robot, where time, in fact, matters. It also causes traffic jams in the aisles when we have to remove everything to set up properly while other teams are doing the same.

I'm interested to see how this works in the district format this coming year. Maybe it'll be a refreshing change, or maybe it'll be more of the same, just later in the day.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

On second thought, I think these are such valid issues that I'll submit them for Frank Answers Fridays. But until it"s addressed, let the discussion continue.

EDIT: Submitted. We shall see.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I completely agree. I understand it could make a long day for volunteers, but I'd much rather see 3v3 matches going until 7PM than the same handful of teams doing 1v1 matches at 10am. Just shift the schedule back.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I'd even settle for 2 teams at a time, for 4 minutes, from a filler line, to do whatever they want on the field. Doesn't even have to be matches. Most venues cannot accommodate a proper practice field and the late PM when everyone needs it is when everyone is ready for it and crowding it, and the real one is there, but closed.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Aside from volunteer time, a big issue is inspections. Believe it or not, there are usually 1/3 or more of teams that haven't passed inspection yet when the field closes (and sometimes teams that haven't even started yet!). Teams spend the whole first day doing work on their robot that didn't get done before it was bagged up and playing on the field... they just don't prioritize inspections. I honestly worry about giving teams more time on the field so they could put off inspections even later, causing a situation where we couldn't possibly get them all inspected before their first match.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

We already require a preliminary safety inspection to get on the field at all. I think most of us would be fine with a "must fully pass inspection to practice on the real field after 4PM" type of requirement. Problem solved, and it brings another new incentive to get inspected sooner than the morning of qualifiers.

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I agree, pits should be allowed to be setup during load in and practice field should be open after 4pm. We don't even need there to be matches we could run them like the practice field with one or two volunteers and teams just getting 5 mins each to drive their robot around. The full practice field at IRI is my dream for every event.

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I agree. This would allow more teams to get the practice/testing they need. And it would probably make the early Friday matches more entertaining too, as they're usually quite dull and often there are dead robots on the field early-on. We don't even stay at our local regional after the main field closes because we know we're going to have to wait a very long time to be able to use the practice field for a few minutes and it's never worth it in our opinion.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

We at the Innovators decided early on that the pit would remain simple. 2 rolling work benches and our robot cart. The only loose items are 2 tubs with scouting in one and outreach in the other. The goal is to roll into the pit and in 10 minutes we are capable of working on the robot. After competition is over we can be also be out in the same time frame.

Adding another day of work is not something I would like to see.:yikes:

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I think there's a couple of things with the setup of pit and the field being open. I'll try to address those briefly. And NEITHER is what you'd expect.

Pit setup: I'm not concerned as much about competitive advantage here. There are a couple of reasons why setting up the pit is, or could be, not allowed, and a couple of items I'd like to point out.

#1: Verification that you're NOT working on your robot. Yeah, I realize that there's the bag and all that, but here's the thing. Inspectors are typically a skeleton crew on load-in. You've got maybe 5 or six inspectors going over bags and checking to make sure nobody's taking advantage of that green tag being on the bag to do a little early work. That, and once people start working, it's VERY difficult to get them to STOP working. Have you guys who are asking to be allowed to set up ever even TRIED to get the entire pit area cleared for ceremonies or end of day on Thursday or Friday? I'm not talking about just your team, I'm talking about clearing the entire pit area so you can go home and get some sleep before beating the teams in the next day. It's not as easy as it sounds. If you haven't, please contact your volunteer coordinator and ask if you can volunteer at pit admin.

#2: Some of the "It takes so long because everything has to be set up" might be mitigated by better planning. 973 has a beautiful setup: they bring everything in, drop it off, it's already just about in position--what's more, they can bring it out to the field if needed in a matter of moments. I suspect that some careful planning of the "what is packed where and deposited where" may be in order for speedy setup. Or maybe bringing less stuff into the venue--there aren't restrictions on tools and COTS items being stored outside and brought in as needed, last I checked. (That doesn't hold true for fabricated items under last year's rules, mind you.)



As far as the fields go, there are potentially a number of reasons. As noted, one is inspection. Inspectors want to see your robot at inspection early. (As an unrelated side note, I'd be in favor of allowing teams onto the field only once with just a safety inspection; anything after that with a minimum of partial, or a pass from inspection/FTA to try to get field connection.)

But there are others. One is field wear and tear and repair. Even on practice day, there can be damage to the field that needs to be repaired. Also, there is a huge cushion left in case of major problems, which you'd rather have fixed on practice day. And we can't forget the fatigue factor, both on the mechanical parts of the robots and on the humans manning the field. That four hours is a great time for the field crews to meet up out of sight and evaluate anything that needs to be evaluated, as well as connect any robots that haven't connected yet.




That said, I have a compromise proposal on both counts. For the pits: All the setup you want, but you get exactly one trip per early window, make it count. (Translation: 1 trip during night-before load-in, one during early-bird.) One bonus trip during either window for helping any two other teams carry items in, not extendable past one trip regardless of number of teams helped. For the field: Extend the field open hours by two hours, for any teams that have passed inspection OR that need to work on communication problems, on a filler-line basis (comm issues take priority). The caveat here is that because your team is so prepared as to require this extra practice time, your team will of course also have team members volunteering to help the inspectors and technical staff eliminate rules non-conformance and comm problems and field issues of all types, unless of course you do not want to take the field during this time. (BTW, that "volunteering" isn't exactly volunteering. It's more of "You look like you're not busy, come help us fix this ziptie/carpet tape/comm issue/oversized robot/etc."

For those that can't detect mild sarcasm, or a side of snark, the above proposal isn't exactly serious. But if folks will insist on rules changing to accommodate their bending of rules, may as well change them so they are required to help out other teams who work within the current rules, no?

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I think I have a nice perspective on this as I attended an event where we were extremely short on inspectors and one where we had 15+ inspectors :yikes: . I will say personally I wish teams were allowed to set up early because, usually IMO, the teams that take longer to set up their pits almost always have a robot that is going to pass inspection in the initial or at very most second time look at. The teams that take little time to set up their pit usually have a robot that will take longer to get through inspection. As for a competitive advantage, I don't think it is much even though our team's drop and pop pit https://www.flickr.com/photos/ftcstl...n/photostream/ always makes us first in the inspection line which helps the team meet its goal of being the first team to pass inspection at each event that we attend. I agree that it would help if we let at least half the field be a pseudo practice field for fully inspected teams after 4 would be a welcomed change for many events. I wouldn't be against teams being able to set up their pits during load in day as it should help initial inspections during the practice day morning, but I also like Eric's idea of teams being "strongly encouraged" to help out other teams, or help field volunteers set up the field in order to be able to set up. I know our team enjoys helping the event get up and running as you get to see the hard work and develop much respect for the people running the event.

On a side note I do agree that a little pre-planning and not having quiet a fancy pit still allows for nice judging looks, a safety inspector told me we had one of the cleanest and nicest pits he had ever seen, and also a very functional pit.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Just to clarify I'm LRI at Alamo and volunteer at a lot of events. I welcome the opportunity to politely ask people to go home when pits are closing and I'm often close to the the last person out. Myself and my team also have done field setup at Lone Star each of the past 3 years. We could easily still do this and have a couple people putting up our shelves in our pit so we don't have to do it Thursday morning.

All notes about working on the robot during that time are just silly to me. You have weeks with your robot in the bag at your facility; if your morals are so low that you are going to cheat why in the world would you do it when you could be caught. Bag and Tag is an honor system to begin with, at the events is the only time when its even remotely enforceable.

I'm also sure we could find a few volunteers that would stay and let teams run on the field Thursday night. I'm pretty sure the IRI practice field has 2-4 volunteers max and it seems to do just fine each year. The fields see a ton of events and off-seasons and they hold up pretty well. If 24 more hours of play time (4 hours * 6 weeks) is going to severely damage the field we are building in way to small margins on what they can take.

The ability to put a better product on the field should be the goal for all these rules. Pits and robots that are set up and ready to go when the competition starts is better for spectators, students, parents, news crews, and everyone else we are putting on these events to inspire.

2nd for Allens thoughts.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Yeah, real simple.
Lets see you do the same if you had to come to the Hawaii regional.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Dave,
you definitely have my vote for BEST suggestion for 2015. Hoping for the best....

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Well said Allen!

I still think the issue of working on the robot can be easily worked around: one volunteer writes down the tag number for each team's bag as it walks in the door during load in and does a quick bag inspection. This is just like we've always done it and it can be done by one inspector on the first night. Thursday morning when the entire inspection staff is there goes around to verify the same tag is on the bag and the bag is still intact. This is not hard to implement.

If we really allow teams to get to work on their robots straight off the bat on Thursday morning you will see inspections start sooner, more teams will be able to practice, keep the field open for longer on Thursday, and the level of competition at events will increase as well. This benefits a lot of teams!

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

+1 for early set up of the pits on Load in night. It would make life much easier before the whole team arrives Thursday morning.

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I couldn't possibly agree more. The 10-4 practice schedule is horrendous and teams are less functional and competitive as a direct result. Even in the rare case where we're basically ready to compete as soon as our pit is set up and we've passed inspection, we can maybe get one match in. If we delay full inspection until after 4, then we're contributing to the end of day rush that absolutely exhausts inspectors. If we do it the way that seems right, get inspection taken care of before practice, we're lucky to get a single match in, and then the practice field is already full for the next day and a half!!

12-6 for a practice schedule is the exact same amount of work for volunteers working the field and far more useful to the teams competing. I've never been to an FRC competition where I saw more than 4 robots on the practice field before noon. Rather than have teams who are ready to practice twiddle their thumbs the last 4 hours the pits are open, let's give them at least some field time. Please.

Honestly if getting fully inspected is an issue, make the field open even later and require inspection. Whatever, anything for later field time works for me.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I completely agree with this. How often do we see the first 5 practices matches go by with 0 robots on the field. That isn't doing anybody any good, you're not getting to test the field and time is just being wasted. I think pushing the practice schedule back 2 hours is a great suggestion. Even an hour to get some teams inspected/set up would be better than the schedule now.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I am going to give you another perspective;
Since I am in FIRST (starting my 6th year in FRC) the Israeli Regional was 4 days but not really. There is a hour (in some years it was 45 minutes) to load in your stuff. Teams who did not attend the load in has the same amount of time to load in in the next day before everyone can enter the pit area. In both times of load in the teams can take only 5 people including adults to one of the load in times.
Why do they do it?
It's simple, in my opinion, hundreds of people and tons of stuff can be a big mess up. In this configuration, teams can carry their totes/tool and etc... SAFELY!
There are 2 loading times so in average there are half of the teams in load in and the inspectors can handle the bag&tag process without running a marathon.
If teams can't/are not able to attend the load in day, they don't miss a thing.
In my team we prefer to go to the load in day because it is easier to us to transport all of our stuff although we are 45 minutes drive from the venue. The students love to get another day (hour) of the regional spirits!
In one year we could not attend the load in and we didn't felt that we miss something!

edit:
I forgot something important. My team transport our stuff with 2-3 cars. Imagine 50 teams =100-150 cars looking for the closest parking space to the pit area.The load in day makes it less problematic...

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Thursday morning is when us LRI's train the inspectors. I usually have 2-3 inspectors who I'm confident know what they're doing taking care of Bag and Tag stuff, while all the other inspectors are huddled up with me being trained on what to look for - I can't afford to have all my inspectors checking tags on robots that were already loaded in, and helping other teams load in... we wouldn't be able to get to the training until later, and that would push back when we could start inspecting robots.

From my experience, setting up the pit is not the reason we have trouble getting everyone inspected. With a few exceptions, almost every pit I've seen can be set up in 15 mins or less. The issue with inspections are teams that show up late, teams that haven't finished building their robot, veteran teams that are too self-assured and just put it off because they can and teams that are focused on functionality (usually programming).

I know I've seen my own team work on autonomous programming until 4PM before they've finally gotten sick of me asking when they're going to get inspected and they actually start their inspection. It's not a question of teams not having enough time, and honestly... if we let teams set up earlier it won't help with inspections - work expands to fill available time. It's a question of priorities, and teams mistakenly see other items as being more important than passing inspection.

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To further reinforce the argument, most trade shows have at least a full half day of load-in and set up time for the vendors before anyone from the public ever sets foot in the place. They are not setting up their booths when the doors open to the public on the first day.

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I agree, these suggestion probably won't help inspection and that's not the goal. Forcing a full inspection to practice after 4pm might help inspection but again not the point of these changes. The goal should be to put a better product out on the field and in the pits to inspire our communities and change the culture.

Also can we just stop checking bag and tag at this point. If people wanted to cheat they would cheat and there is little we can do about it other than building a culture that has higher standards than that. We aren't finding and pushing the people that are cheating. We are punishing teams that honestly make a mistake with some artificial time penalty of having to get a few signatures and a stern talking to. Why do we even bother? Who does this process help? We have the ability to be a different program. We have the opportunity to set higher standards of trust and respect among competitors and checking bag and tag doesn't help do that.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Thanks for you insight as an LRI. I agree teams all too often will not prioritize getting inspected (we make that our highest priority). Deciding to delay opening the practice field until 12pm-1pm can drastically help this. Matches start at 10am and once they do its all teams will focus on saying "The field is open till 4 and we can get inspected then" because most venues stay open til 8pm. Run the practice field from 12pm/1pm to 7pm during the hours that teams need it. Yes it means the field volunteers need to stay late but I see not reason why the field crew would need to report first thing in the morning. Let them sleep in a few hours if they feel the field is ready to go from the night before.

Someone I realized that was interesting is that technically we did experience what people are suggesting in this thread at our District Championship. Wednesday night was originally supposed to be load in to your pits and leave but it was changed to match other districts as load in started at 5:30pm and teams were allowed to load in, setup their pits, and get inspected with 5 team members. Inspectors encouraged all teams to setup their pits first before starting inspections and by the end of the night a good amount of teams were inspected. Most teams came in just to setup their pits and get their robots ready for the next morning and everyone came in at varying times through the evening but most teams were present during the first hour.

What I did remember was it was a very calm, quiet evening and the next morning inspections resumed and practice matches started.

I know inspections on Wednesday night is too much to start at the regional level but still a lot of teams opted to come in, setup their pits, and return in the morning to work on their robots.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I agree for the most part... but I did have a team last year up in Duluth who took an unbag period (the kind we give to teams going to district events) the week before. Honest mistake by the team, but completely not legal. In situations like that, the imposed time penalty - the amount of time the robot had been unbagged for, which I think was 4 hours - was necessary, appropriate, and quickly agreed to by all parties (the team, myself, Big Al, FTA and head ref). IMO, it's situations like that which provide a context and importance for all teams who see it, and legitimize the process. At least with checking the forms teams know we're looking at it (and I often chat with the team while doing so, if they're around). If we don't check the forms, then there's no penalty for cheating, and teams could very well start to get a lot looser with it, knowing there's no penalty.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

We DO have this in our districts (MAR). Our DCMP (which is kind of a hike for most teams) is a load-in-only, no-setup thing on Wednesday night. Even just moving things off our carts and onto a logical place on our pit floor got us yelled at by volunteers. Not cool - not to mention that wasn't at all worth the 2.5 hour drive.

It's so insanely unsafe. 1923's pit this year was right near the loading dock, and partially blocking the hallway where inspections were, so we couldn't safely unpack our pit until every.single.truck. had been unloaded into the venue. Even then, it was a huge hassle with volunteers/other teams yelling at us for blocking their way to the inspectors (which wasn't even our fault, that's just where they put our pit!).

I think as long as the robot stays in the bag until Thursday morning, then setting up the pit should be fair game. It's not giving people extra early time to work on their robot, it's making it easier on the teams that have to load-in on Thursday morning by not having the aisles (as) full of other-team's-stuff.

This is largely a regional-level issue, but some help/recommendations from HQ wouldn't hurt. I think commenting on Frank's Blog with some suggestions/concerns is the right way to go. We know FRC reads Chief, but we should still lay it out on an official channel.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I agree with libby on unloading. As for practice fields, I do feel that something like requiring a full inspection prior to being allowed to play on the practice field the first day of comp should be implemented. Touching on a similar issue, anyone else got yelled at by volunteers for having a pit crew during eliminations? If an issue like this occurs, I wonder how something like setting up pits would be handled. Would we still see volunteers not knowing about certain rules, and affecting teams in the process?

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Not to be harsh, but maybe that's a problem with pit design. Our team can unload and setup our pit without stepping outside of it.

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Oh, I'm certainly not saying our pit is perfect, but the fact is that only so many people-and-robot-and-boxes-of-stuff can fit in an 8x8 (10x10 if you're lucky) space. Gotta drop stuff in on Wednesday night, make the boxes/carts all fit in the space, and then bring it all out of 'storage' to place it in the right spots/set up our vertical displays Thursday morning.

It doesn't make a lot of sense compared to coming in Wednesday night, setting up the pit as it's loaded in, and then keeping the bagged robot on display in the middle, ready for unbag & inspection when we get in Thursday.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

One reason that you can't allow pit set up on load in night is that not all venues have a load in night and that even applies to district events. As Frank mentioned in the blog post the only real change that was announced is that those venues that have a load in night will now show up as a "4 day" event on the schedule rather than the typical listing of 3 days.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Where did the pit crew incident occur? Orlando allows a small pit and pit crew behind the curtain, but South Florida just has teams use their normal pit since they're already so close to the field... and i believe that's a regional to regional decision.

Edit: I just looked it up and it seems that it's not a regional decision, but a manual enforced rule that teams may have up to three 'pit crew' members (5.4.5). Doesn't exactly define the parameters of where/what those members can do, but it seems I was mistaken. Sorry!

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Yes. I've had to pull out the manual multiple times.

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It's very true that you get what you encourage.

The current practice field model inspires many teams to put of inspection.

They know the field closes at 4, and they likely won't get many practice matches. They hurry to pass a brief safety inspection, practice and then go to inspection at 4.

My team is guilty of this, among many others.

As a coach and inspector for many seasons (often at the same event), it's not shocking to me that this occurs. Teams are simply reacting to the constraints given to them in the most optimal fashion they can.

If the practice field started later and ran later, as well as had a cutoff (lets say 3pm) that you can't play past if you're not fully inspected, this issue would improve.

Better access to the practice matches is better for all parties involved. Obviously the teams and direct spectators benefit, but also the event itself. Presumably most events need to fundraise and have sponsors at the event, I've been to TOO many regionals where matches 1-3 are god awful embarassing but the same teams are substantially better in match 10+. This is because they missed the 4pm cutoff for practice, and their first match was their practice match! These are the matches sponsors are most likely to see first, and make a first impression from.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Thanks for the great suggestions Sanddrag. Making those changes would bring a lot of sanity to (and increase the level of competition at) FRC events.

The suggestions in this thread led me to reflect on something that has been bothering me for a long time. Wednesday night load in and inspections are two of many times that I feel bring an adversarial feel to the relationship between volunteers and teams. Almost every time I leave an FRC regional, I feel frustrated by volunteers that seem to enjoy enforcing arbitrary rules that hurt teams rather than help make sure the event run smoothly. Perhaps it's the rules, perhaps it's who's managing them, perhaps it's just the personalities of the volunteers themselves, but whatever it is, it needs to change. In my experience, most teams now feel like volunteers are roadblocks in the way to success rather than partners in running a safe, fun and fair event. This not only degrades the teams experience (which cost them several thousand dollars), but also creates a culture where skirting the rules is considered the norm.

Before you all jump down my throat, I'd like to say that I understand that these wonderful events could not be run without volunteers, and that I've met many respectful, responsible and prudent volunteers that have greatly enhanced my FRC experience. I'm thankful for their commitment and sacrifice. And yes, I understand that the volunteers have had long days, and are under stress. But at almost every event I go to, there seem to be a few volunteers that either enjoy jerking people around because they can or who get a kick out of enforcing arbitrary rules.

Another suggestion: could we not have music on Thursdays? I really don't need to have Miley Cyrus blasted at me while working on the robot. Given the safety culture at FIRST events, I'm surprised this hasn't been stopped already, as being exposed to that many decibels for that long is a serious auditory safety hazard.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

What specific 'things' are you referring to in this regard?

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

DampRobot, beautifully articulated. I couldn't have said it better myself. I want to like the volunteers, I really do, and most times I do, but not always. The 'arbitrary' nature of certain rules ( and the sometimes ruthless enforcement of said arbitrary rules) really is the element that bugs us logical thinking engineer types, always searching for optimization, efficiency, and an answer to "why?". In some cases, it does become a competition of who can " play" the rules the best.

If 973 rolls in their Super Pit and pops a couple latches and is ready to compete or I make 14 trips carrying in cardboard boxes and plastic crates and unpacking it all, what's the difference?

I'll tell you the difference: Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. I don't have the funds nor time to make the pit area you describe. Your team figured it out. Good for you. Even with our sponsors-plastered vinyl-wrapped trailer, team-owned tow vehicle and 14 years experience, we still have not been able to make a nice looking and functional pit area that sets up quick, and comparatively we're at a disadvantage to those who have.

*Disclaimer
And I don't mean this post to reflect negatively on 973 in any way, quite on the contrary. I'm just completely envious of their pit. It's a masterpiece. They saw a problem and solved it in magnificent fashion, and I wish I could say we've done the same. And before Adam says it, yes, rather than mentioning what I don't have, I should work harder to get what I want. ;). :)

Realistically though, resources are not infinite. There are limits to what teams can do, and we shouldn't have to jump through ridiculous hoops (**cough** practice bot after bagging) for the 80th percentile teams to bridge that huge performance gap to becoming 90th percentile teams.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Yelling at us during Wednesday load in for trivial things the volunteers saw as setting up the pit. Yelling at us for taking the robot off the field when it didn't fit with their inefficient plan for match reset (even though no one else was ready to bring their robot on the field, we were supposed to wait for all the robots to come on before taking our robot off). Yelling at us for being too early to queuing. Yelling at us for being too fast/too slow in moving on/off the practice field. Yelling at us for trying to stay in the pits during opening ceremonies. Yelling at us for charging our tanks in queuing. Yelling at us for standing or walking in the wrong place. Sometimes, I've got the impression that they're yelling at us just because they can.

I'm sure I could think of more instances with time. This is just a list of some of the things I've experienced myself; I've heard of a lot of other stuff (including some bizarre allegations of semi-predatory inspections) which I've chosen not to list here.

Another disclaimer: the type of volunteers I'm describing are a small minority of the volunteer pool, a group which on the whole I've found to be gracious, kind, and extremely competent. On the other hand, at almost every event I've gone to, there's been multiple incidents of the type listed above.

I guess I'm just letting off steam, but that's the problem as I see it.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Folks, if you have an issue with a particular volunteer, you do have some recourse to get that particular volunteer to "play nice".

First, figure out who is that volunteer's "boss". Inspector being a problem? Ask for the LRI. Referee? See that ref in the yellow shirt. Field reset? Supervisor. Lead Queue. FTA. If all else fails, track down the regional director and see if he can help track down the volunteer coordinator. State your complaint clearly and calmly. The lead or VC can then get the volunteer's side of the story and move them as appropriate/possible. (Or come back to you and explain--a little more professionally--why the volunteer isn't playing nice. I seem to remember an incident years ago where a team left a cart out of their pit in a hazardous area. Safety judges caused the team some consternation by removing their cart to an out-of-the-way area but returned it with a bit of a warning when the team asked about it.)

Second, I believe Pit Admin routinely carries incident reporting forms. If you can't find the appropriate person(s) to talk to, ask for one, fill it out, and I'm pretty sure that someone will be in contact.


If you've got a lot of stuff to bring in and set up, you might consider investing in a rolling tote rack, with locking wheels. That might make life a LOT easier in terms of moving things around (particularly when moving them to put floor/robot in). More wheels = more maneuverability/easier moving, ya know. A quick look at McMaster shows items of that nature ranging from $200 to $1K or so, depending on model, construction, and how many addons you opt for. AndyMark also sells some material that can be used to build a custom unit, though that might be a bit more expensive and take some careful planning. (Trust me, that sort of stuff can hold a lot of weight. Just check the bolts once in a while.)


Food for thought, as well: How many regional champions do you see that take an hour to set up their pit/need the load-in time as setup time?

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I agree with most of your post but you have to remember teams have different goals. We're constantly battling internally to decide if it's better to bring everything that any team could possibly need or just the stuff we know we will need. It normally falls somewhere in the middle for us but sometimes it saddens me when I know we left something at home that another team could really use that day.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Dare I speculate that the yelling might be lesser if the music volume was lower? (although the energy level of FRC events does have an allure that VRC events don't)

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Something we've struggled with from the start is that we've never had a trailer to bring our equipment to events. Everything we take has to fit in the back of a minivan or my 15 passenger van (with the seats out). It still takes a good amount of time to empty the van, take it to the pit, and setup since the shelving has to be broken down. Whatever few items aren't on wheels already typically fits on two dollies filled with totes or brought in by hand.

"Roll in" pits have always been out of our reach and probably will be until we can get a trailer but something we borrowed from a sponsor for Championships this year was an awesome find! You can buy it here from Tractor Supply Co. for $149. This setup only comes with one shelf but we had two for St. Louis. We were able to fit everything for our pit on the cart for load in and it integrated very well with our pit providing ample storage above and below plus a very sturdy work table. It breaks down into 6 easy to transport pieces and setups up in seconds. Highly recommended for pits.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

973's amazing pit is unattainable by most teams, including ours. My point wasn't to go spend thousands of dollars to make a pit like theirs, my point was the exact opposite. I see too many teams at events that have to pull everything out of their pit so they can set up their decorative walls and all their extra stuff every year. This is what creates the unsafe situations and cause the blockage, not the rules against setting up your pit on Wednesday. For reference, our pit is a roll in tool chest, a battery cart made from wood, an 80/20 roll in parts shelf, and an 80/20 bench topper that we carry in and put on the table. All of the 80/20 stuff was made from left overs from previous build seasons. Everything else comes in 2-3 crates that are put under the table.

We actually rent a U-Haul covered trailer every year for both Regionals. It costs about $125 for the 4 days of rental for each trip. We decided it was more cost efficient than buying a trailer and paying for the upkeep for it.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I know of a few trailers we can borrow but part two is getting the vehicle to tow said trailer of equipment. :)

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Very true. That tends to be the more expensive part ;) We are lucky that I and a couple of other people on the team have vehicles that can tow the trailer. We usually get a smaller trailer that a Ford Ranger can tow.

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

I'll only point out that in terms of people, funds and equipment 696 has a good deal more resources ;)

Re: [FRC Blog] FRC Expands Regionals to Four Days
 

Adam, 973's roll-out pit inspired a lot of teams this year. Even my team is planning on building one for the next competition season.