NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Robot Rumble registration is open! Sign up here http://tinyurl.com/p49oq4e to join us at our inaugural robotics event in beautiful Upstate NY on Oct. 4th! #robotrumbleny

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

This is very exciting! A second off-season in "upstate" New York! I wish I could come and volunteer, but I have other plans that weekend!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

So pumped. First a regional near us, now an off-season. The future looks bright for the NY capital region. :)

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I'm contemplating coming up to the event. Any interest in holding a NEMO meeting? (Non-Engineering Mentor Organization)

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Are you signed up for Robot Rumble Oct. 4? Our deadline is looming, but there's room for more teams. We're flexible! Register today: http://tinyurl.com/p49oq4e

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Is the current list of teams registered up to date? Just wondering?

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Yes it is.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Very excited to be attending this event. This will be our first off season competition that our team has attended! We look forward to testing some drivers, some new pit members, and just having some good ol' fun! Should be great!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

We're looking forward to having our friends from the North join us for this great new event! We'll be putting some new info up on the page and tweeting it out this weekend :)

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I'm looking forward to traveling to NY for the off-season!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Awesome! New York is beautiful in October :)

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I'm so excited to have an off season event in the NY capital region :D

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I lived in Clifton Park for 2 years and wasn't involved in FRC at the time, but I'd love to be able to make this Off Season.

Sadly the day before my wedding!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I went to the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum the morning of my wedding...

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Just a note to all teams-
Registration for this event and payment is still open, and we want YOU to come!
Just go check it out at http://www.techvalleyfirst.org/robotrumble for more information and the registration page!

NYTVRR features some awesome teams you may not have competed with before from upstate New York, so you should join quick!

I will personally be one of the MC's of the event (my first time!) so that ought to be interesting at the least!

So come to the Tech Valley Robot Rumble! You won't be disappointed!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Currently we have these teams signed up:
Team 20
The Rocketeers
Clifton Park, New York

Team 145
TRx
Norwich, NY

Team 190
Gompei and the HERD
Worcester , MA

Team 250
Dynamos
Colonie, NY

Team 839
Rosie Robotics
Agawam, MA

Team 1493
Falcons
Albany, New York

Team 1511
Rolling Thunder
Penfield, NY

Team 2370
iBots
Rutland, VT

Team 2791
Shaker Robotics
Latham, NY

Team 2809
K-Botics
Kingston, Ontario

Team 3044
OxBE4
Ballston Spa, NY

Team 4134
RoboRams
Amsterdam, NY

Team 4203
Robokronos
Otsego County, New York

Team 4508
Schuylerville Robotics
Schuylerville, NY

Team 5236
Man O' War Robotics
Cambridge , NY

There still is space to register!
We also are hosting a Food drive for Regional Food Bank of Northeastern New York. Donate from non-perishables ie. peanut butter, soup, canned vegetables to non food items such as paper towels. For more information go to http://www.techvalleyfirst.org/robot...?page=foodbank

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Good luck to all of the teams participating in the first Tech Valley Robot Rumble, it's going to be an amazing event :D

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I can't wait! I'll be taking the 4 hour trek back from RIT Friday night for this thing. Should be a blast.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

With 14 teams present, is there any chance we could do 2v2 in qualifications, with 2 assists = 20 points? It would be MUCH less stressful on the teams involved in terms of match turnaround and probably just easier all around. For elims we could go back to 3v3...

I'm also curious if the random first pick rules will stay, seeing as that would currently make the entirety of eliminations completely random.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

That would probably be good. Although we couldn't do 8 alliances as only 14 teams are currently registered. I was thinking that they may do 4 alliances. 12 teams get picked. Normal rules can still apply.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

FMS doesn't support 2v2 matches, but 4 alliance elims are supported.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

There is some way around this, events have been doing 2v2 for years.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

You can run matches any way you want if you bypass the FMS matchmaking and scorekeeping by running every match as a practice match.

That puts a big burden on someone to devise a randomized 2v2 match schedule and someone to create a spreadsheet and manually enter/display the scores/rankings each match. The scorekeeper then enters teams for each match by hand.
It's a slower more work intensive process, but it can be done. It isn't very worth it.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Couldn't matches just always have two no show "teams"? You would need to make a schedule through some other software (whatever Vex uses) but otherwise I think it could work. I wouldn't even mind if one assist stayed 10 points. I just don't think our robot could play back to back matches all day.

I got the idea for 2v2 quals from HERE, an offseason one of our mentors attended in NJ this year. I wonder how they did it?

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

IROC has also done it multiple times as well as the Robot Rumble in Richmond when it was still being held.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Using the old FMS Lite that's pretty much how every match is run, so that makes sense.
Using the new FMS Lite and the real FMS it's more of a pain and bypasses all the good stuff it does automatically for you.

You really can't devise a random schedule where every match is guaranteed to have exactly two dummy teams.


P.S.
Even with 2v2, your matches are still going to be very close together with so few teams competing.
If the event has the time, then matches can be spaced out a bit more to relieve the stress on teams.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I'm attempting to say you could generate a 2v2 schedule elsewhere and manually enter it with 2 dummy teams each match into the FMS. I thought the FMS could get schedules from an external source / file.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I believe this is the case, and it isn't difficult.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

That might work. The dummy teams will be ranked, but teams could just overlook them.
Such a change would require a decision and proper preparation ahead of time. Just don't allow your imaginations to run away with you.
The system is optimized for regulation play, not anything goes.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

With 15 teams, and possibly a few practice robots being played, I figured we could have 6 alliances of 3 teams in eliminations, assuming we have three teams who bring practice robots. Otherwise, with 15 teams, we could do 5 alliances of 3 teams in eliminations.

2v2 Quals sounds awesome, and I'd love to see Aerial Assist play out with 2v2 matches.

I know for a fact 20 has a practice bot, so might 2791, 3044, and 1493. I don't know whether any of these teams have the ability to field a second drive team when many of them are likely to be helping to run the event with volunteers, and I don't know what condition these robots are in.

Whether these robots are competing should be figured out ASAP, and communicated to the people running the event.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Our practice robot is mostly in pieces now, so we won't be bringing it and a second drive team. We had to further gut it this week to keep the comp bot alive another week. Hopefully next year.

My apologies if I was derailing the thread too much with discussion of the mechanics of 2v2; I guess I'm just excited.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

1493's practice bot is all apart as well. I think the 2v2 matches in Elims should be seriously considered. And then going to 3 team alliances for eliminations.

Possibly 4, 3 team alliances. Seeds 1-4 cant pick each other.

Or

5- 3 team alliances, Seed 1 can accept a bye thru to the 2nd round or get the 1st pick. If they take the bye they then get 4th pick....same deal for 2nd seed etc. 4th seed has to take the bye if it gets to them.

Just brainstorming, slow day at work..

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

My comment about practice bots didn't only apply to the teams I listed. I know other teams coming have practice bots as well. I think it would be nice to have as many robots as possible at this event.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

You could DQ the dummy teams in every match and they'll show up at the bottom, at least.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

As far as I am aware, one of the goals for the event is to get every team 10 matches. If we did 2v2 in quals, it would mean making the event substantially longer. Also, then changing the game entirely for eliminations would throw all of these rookie drivers and refs/scorekeepers off for when it matters. Also consider that backups will likely be needed for elims. If every team is on an alliance then there may not be anyone on reserve.

Maybe we could instead be a little relaxed on turn around times between matches or have a driving frame as a qualifications reserve. If I'm correct, this is what battlecry at WPI has done. I just personally disagree with running 2v2 matches, and especially if it's not going to be consistent throughout the event. I think it just takes away from the "officialness" of the competition by straying from the actual game.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I was with 5254 when they played at the HERE (Hoboken Engineered Robotics Event) offseason competition where we played 2v2 matches through all of quals and then did 3v3 in eliminations. It was a ton of fun, and while different from typical competition I think the 2v2 matches were actually more fun to play in. The strategic decisions are a bit different but overall simpler which I think is great for teams training/testing new drivers. I personally enjoyed the change of pace from the typical 3v3 game. It was a 15 team competition and even with 2v2 matches we could barely keep up with the pace. It was a bit hectic but a lot of fun, with 3v3 matches in this event I think it would run teams way to hard.

This is an offseason competition where most teams will be running new drivers and pit crew with robots nearing the end of their life cycle, it wasn't official to being with.

2v2 matches are a way to get a lot more playing robots and having fun in and having played in them before I highly recommend them for this size and kind of event.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

As someone who has competed in a 2v2 offseason, 2v2 in qualifications can be great. You're not doing an offseason to have another official competition. However, you are commonly running new drive teams and pit crews. With a slowed match pace with 2v2 and fewer machines on the field, you're not throwing any new people into the inferno of a regional match and match cycle.

However, be intelligent when it comes to structuring eliminations. I don't want to detail to you how the old Robot Rumble in Richmond handled 2v2 elims for fear someone will adopt that idea in the future and credit/blame me for it.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

First I do want to clarify; I'm really excited about this event and appreciative of all of the hard work people have put into planning it. If we play 3v3 matches I don't think it will ruin the experience for us or anything like that. My intent here is just to look at some data to compare the two options; I really don't want to step on any toes or otherwise come across as making demands that would alienate anyone. Can't wait for the Rumble!

All of that said, I think there's a lot of merit to playing 2v2 than 3v3, at the cost of ~2 matches per team. Whether or not this is worth it is definitely up for discussion. For the purposes of this post, I'm assuming 16 "teams" (14 real robots + 2 practice bots). All schedules I generated for this were done in MatchMaker assuming 16 teams, aiming to avoid back to back matches, and the best "quality" possible as defined by the software.

First things first: The number of matches. 10 matches per team is a noble goal and I completely support giving teams as many matches as physically possible. However, 10 matches is completely impossible with the current schedule. To give each team 10 matches, let's assume perfectly ideal conditions. Currently we are playing matches from 9:45 - 12 and from 12:30 to 1:30. This allows us 195 minutes to run these matches. 10 matches per team means 27 matches. Given each match is 2:30 long, this gives us only a 4:45 turnaround between matches! This is completely unrealistic even for a regular event, but for a 16 team event with teams going back to back, 4:45 is just not going to happen. It simply will not work. We either need more time or we need fewer matches.

So how many matches can we possibly do? Given a 7:30 turnaround time and a 2:30 duration for each match, then that's 10 minutes a match. In 195 minutes, that's ~19.5 matches. For 3v3 with 16 teams, you can give everyone 7 matches in 19 rounds. For 2v2 with 16 teams, you can give everyone 5 matches in 20 rounds. For any amount of time near 200 minutes, you're going to get two more matches with 3v3 versus 2v2. This is a significant tradeoff.

Now that we have a ballpark number of matches, I generated two schedules using MatchMaker to compare their quality. They're attached if you're curious. In the 3v3 schedule, the minimum delta between matches is 1 (back to back) for 12/16 teams; a minimum delta of 2 (1 match in between) exists for 4 teams. For the most part teams play with and against about 75% of the event in quals. For 14/16 teams, they will play with / against at least one team 4 times.

Looking at the 2v2 schedule, no teams play any back to back matches. The minimum delta between matches is 2; 11/16 teams deal with a one match turnaround. Every team partners with 5 other teams and plays against 10 other teams. No team repeats playing with the same team or against the same team, though almost every team will interact with a team twice, once on each side.

The 2v2 schedule is a lot nicer, but 2 fewer matches is a lot.
---

As for the differences between quals and eliminations, I really don't think it's a big deal. It's about as big of a change as the coopertition bridge vs triple balancing in 2012. Trusses, assists, and goals are the same; all that changes is who's on the field. It's really not "completely different strategy" to skip the inbound / pass-back robot. That said, 3v3 would still be a lot of fun and allow for a bit more... "variability"... in alliance partners.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Chris brings up some good points. 2v2 or 3v3 is a pretty significant change to the schedule, but the changes to the game possibly don't matter that much to an offseason (I think driving time in matches is fundamentally the same regardless of strategic implications).

Claiming that 4:45 is an unrealistic turnaround time is false, and not the way that match turnaround times are usually described. Most events in season run sub-7 minute turnarounds (from start of match to start of match). It is not especially ambitious to run turnarounds that are a bit over 7 minutes. Don't forget that, aside from some practice robots, these robots have mostly run enough matches to make connection to the field old hat.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Whoops, I feel really, really dumb now! I'll edit all of that out soon. :o

In that case, plenty of time for 10 matches with 3v3. If we switched to 2v2, we'd have to play 7 matches. A little bit different... My points about how match scheduling works I think are still valid, but 10 matches in a 16 team event isn't ambitious for 200 minutes. My mistake. :o

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I don’t advocate a 2v2 qualification route for various reasons. Firstly, the scoring of aerial assist was designed to play as a 3v3 game both on the basis of teamwork as an attribute as well as the strategic implications of the 30pt-3 assist bonus. Assuming the scoring the values remain unchanged (see two paragraphs below) the maximum amount of points that can be scored per cycle is 30pts. I think most 2v2 cycles though will be we worth 20 or 21pts though because it is unlikely that all teams will be able score high and truss efficiently. I find the amount of points scored per cycle to be significant because teams that miss 1 or 2 auto balls compared an alliance that makes 2 or 3 auto balls will be 1 or more cycles behind.

Ex. Red Alliance misses 2 auto balls, but gets 10 pts for the mobility bonus. Blue alliance scores 2 auto balls both not hot for 30pts and gets 10 mobility points as well. Advantage Blue 40-10. At this point they are one 30pt cycle behind and would presumably clear the auto balls for one point. In 3v3 a 30pt deficit is much more manageable because 3 assists will immediately catch the Red alliance up in this scenario as well as providing one of the three robots the opportunity to defend the Blue alliance’s cycle. This scenario assumes that both scored balls for blue are “not hot” too; if either of the 2 balls scored is hot the red alliance is behind by more than a complete cycle. Also if 3 balls are scored in auto then the alliance will be almost 2 cycles behind. In short I think the 2v2 format makes comebacks very difficult if one alliance flops during autonomous and the other puts 2-3balls in the high goal.

Additionally, changing the scoring values will make a lot of more work for scorekeepers who would likely have to add assist points to the score generated by the FMS. This is the event’s inaugural year and I think that keeping with the standard FMS team randomization for quals and assist scoring will help the event flow more easily. As Bobby already mentioned the change from 2v2 to 3v3 from quals to elims will inevitably cause confusion with drivers and scorekeepers.

Another aspect of why I support stay with the standard 3v3 matches is that not all teams registered are not watching/posting on this forum. Half of the the teams registered did not post in this forum so they may or may not know that 2v2 matches are considered. I think that most teams registered with the intent to play 3v3 because it simulates a real regional or district in terms of the number of teams on the field.

In regards to 2v2 being a better format to train new drivers, I respectfully disagree.While driving on the field may be “easier”, because of fewer robots on the field and defense, I think that exposing new drivers drivers to defense and a more cluttered field presents a more realistic challenge that they would see at regionals and districts. (Realistically, no shows rarely happen at the regionals have attended. My mentality to approach offseason events is that they should be a stepping stone to get both new and veteran drivers experience for the upcoming competition season and not as a way to learn driving the robot for the first time.) I also think that the 2-3 more matches that a 3v3 format will provide will allow for more opportunities for new drivers to work out the problems that come with a very brief 2min 30sec match.

Sorry for writing a book. :)

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Then don't miss auto ;)

I also think the teams that registered didn't necessarily want back to back matches. It's not nice, I guarantee you that.

It's CD, we're used to it.

I can see both sides of the coin, however with the small pool of teams we have, a 2v2 Qual schedule would allow for more time between matches, as well as an interesting perspective on Aerial Assist I'd like to see play out.

I think without rule changes, 2v2 Aerial Assist would make the best shooting teams more likely to sit atop the rankings at the end of the day, making for more interesting eliminations. That's my hypothesis, but I could be wrong, and there are arguments that having the best robots atop the rankings isn't necessarily the idea.

I'll enjoy the event either way. I can't wait to see you all Saturday!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

True but you cannot control your alliance partner's auto.

True the best remedy in my opinion for that problem is to have longer than usual turnaround times.

I don't really understand why why people find the 2v2 game play intriguing. Is it because of this specific game or do you just like the idea of a two team alliance?

I think the best shooting teams would definitely be ranked the highest in 2v2 rule changes or without. This is because the basic match strategy for 2v2 is inbound, truss, robot 2 acquires the ball, robot 2 scores high. Lather, rinse and repeat. There will be basically no strategic variation in 2v2 in my opinion which is why it seems very bland to me.

Additionally if you want to see how a 2v2 matches play out I recommend you watch week 1 regionals from this year. Typically, 1 robot per alliance did not touch the ball at all during the match which is similar in my mind to a 2v2. Here is the match footage from Inland Empire (thanks 1678!) if you are interested.
I can't wait for the event either but I would prefer to see all matches to be 3v3! And then Ruckus 2 weeks after!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

My apologies for sparking such a contentious thread! I didn't mean to cause so much controversy, I was just proposing an idea. 3v3 will be fine.

I think the point raised about not all teams being on CD, and every team having signed up for this as a 3v3 event, are more valid than any arguments of improvements over 2v2.

All of that said, I've got responses to pretty much everything that's been said lately, but in the interests of keeping the thread on track I'll keep this brief. PM me if you'd like to debate this privately. In short, 3v3 Aerial Assist didn't have a lot of strategic depth anyway (three assist cycles, do you truss or do you not, where does your inbounder sit), and with 20 points for 2 assists instead of 10 points the new game has about the same amount of depth (two assist cycles, do you truss or do you not, do you truss to the HP and IB to the low goal or do you inbound downfield and have your shooter hit the high goal and/or truss). The bigger auto deficit could be solved just by taking a ball off the field in auto, then it's only possible to score 2/3rds the points.

I based my (earlier) opinion off the experiences of a teammate playing at a 2v2 event, competing at Finger Lakes in the elims with a largely 2-assist cycle strategy, and my general desire to give my students more time to strategize and repair an old robot. If we get more than 5 minutes between matches we can make it work but as of now I am absolutely sure we're going to be rushed constantly. I guess that's part of the fun.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I'm hoping for 2 v 2. Old skool, a la 2004!

The game will still play out and Game Announcing will be easier :]

Kevin Leonard said it best.

Longer turnaround times = more "Cotton-eyed Joe" :eek:

I am very much looking forward to a beautiful day in Ballston Spa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballston_Spa,_New_York
Make it rain!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

3v3 matches with 16 (really 14+2*0.5) teams, new pit crews, new drivers and old robots is going to be hectic. I'll bet $1 >30% of robots will go onto the field partially broken at some point or miss a match to make repairs. I'll bet another $1 at least 1 robot will end eliminations in need of significant (>8min) repairs.

My advice (which as always should be taken with a grain of salt, I'm just a dude online typing words) to those responsible for fixing robots, you're not going to get any rest so make sure to keep water bottles in the pit with you and schedule time to eat with a reminder in your phone. Repeated back to back matches is a lot of stress on robots without much cooldown time so be on the lookout for creeping failures.

Enjoy the competition! :]

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

2 v 2, 3 v 3, Who knows? Doesn't really matter. Not about the Robot etc....

Looking forward to great day.
The rain outside should make the colors in the fall trees better.

The competition inside will prime the pump for the next season.

Car started, Road waiting.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

I can't wait to see everyone there!!

Good Luck!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Thank you all for coming out to "Rumble"! Wow was that fun.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

Great off-season event! I'm sure that all the teams attending will agree!

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

This event ran very, very well, and the short turnaround time ended up not being a huge issue for us at all. A well timed lunch break, plenty of patience from the field staff and queuing, and quality teams with durable robots all helped to make for a great event with a ton of matches.

Thanks to 3044 and 2809 for selecting us. We had been hoping to play with 3044 for most of the season, so it was great that we finally got the chance. The alliance was easy to work with and a lot of fun to play with, even if none of us were at 100% the entire time. We're sorry about all the issues we had with our arm winch cable in the elims! Par for the course for a Shaker Robotics elimination run, I guess.

Re: NY Tech Valley Robot Rumble - October 4
 

On behalf of team 145, I would like to thank everybody associated with this event. It was very well run for a first year competition. I am sure we will be back next year, I hope more teams will be able to fit this event into their schedule. Thanks to teams 190 and 839 for being great alliance partners and to all of the other teams for some great matches through the day.
See you all at RPI in March!!!