Chief Delphi - [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

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Hallry

22-08-2014 12:06

[FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Posted on the FRC Blog, 8/22/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...nd-Eligibility

Quote:

2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Blog Date: Friday, August 22, 2014 - 11:18

As I said in an earlier blog, we have had a task force working on Championship eligibility for FRC. The members of this task force are as follows, in no particular order:

Jamee Luce – Districts Representative
Dennis Hughes – Mentor for Team RUSH, 2014 Chairman’s Award Winner
Lane Matheson – 2014 Woodie Flowers Award Winner
Naomi Mancuso – FIRST Operations (Customer Service)
Jen McManus – FIRST Finance
Cindy Stong – Chief Judge Advisor
Dana Henry – FIRST Senior Mentor
Teri Benart – FIRST Senior Mentor
Connie Haynes – FIRST Regional Director
Collin Fultz – FRC Team Advocate
Me

I want to thank the task force members for all their hard work. We’re not quite done yet – see below – but we’ve made significant strides. We have, however, completed our work for changes to the 2015 FRC Championship eligibility. As a reminder, you can find information about the 2014 eligibility rules here. If no change to the 2014 rules is noted below, the 2014 rules will still hold.

Also, Districts will be getting the number of available Championship slots (total Championship capacity less the number of pre-qualified teams) proportional to their percentage representation in all FRC. As an example, if a District has 10% of the teams in FRC, they will be getting 10% of the available slots. This is similar to what was done last year, but this year, the allocation will be done on current season - 2015 - team counts. Districts will still be using the points-and-awards system to determine Championship eligibility, as they have been.

Wild Card Changes for 2015

Unlike in prior years, any team arriving at a Regional who has already earned a Championship spot, and ends up on the Winning Alliance at that Regional, or earns an award at that Regional that would make them eligible for Championship, will generate a Wild Card slot. As an example, if a Hall of Fame team (who is pre-qualified for Championship before the season starts) ends up on the Winning Alliance, that will now generate a Wild Card slot for the Finalist Alliance. Or, as another example, a team that is on the Winning Alliance at one Regional, then wins the Engineering Inspiration Award at a later Regional, will generate a Wild Card slot at the later Regional.

Also, if a team at a Regional earns the right to attend Championship through two accomplishments at the same event, for example, being on the Winning Alliance and earning Chairman’s Award, that will also generate a Wild Card slot.

These rule changes are cumulative. So, if a team who already has earned a slot at Championship attends a Regional and is both on the Winning Alliance and wins a Championship qualifying award, like Engineering Inspiration, that team will generate two Wild Card slots. And will get a congratulatory phone call from POTUS, as they clearly rock.*

If you think this through, you will find that, in most cases, this means that Regionals will be making 6 new, unique teams eligible for Championship attendance. One important caveat – Wild Cards recipients will still be limited to the Finalist Alliance. If more Wild Cards are generated than can be absorbed by the Finalist Alliance, those Wild Cards will still go unused and can’t be backfilled or replaced.

This is good news, right? I think it’s good news. But I’m sure you’ll let me know.

Waitlist Changes for 2015

With the increase in team capacity at the 2015 FIRST Championship, even with the increase in Wild Card availability outlined above, we expect to be able to offer a good number of Waitlist slots in 2015. To support our interest in the fair distribution of these slots, and to provide greater opportunity for teams that haven’t attended in a few years, we are making some changes.

Waitlist slots will no longer be first come first served, as they have been – essentially – in prior years. When teams sign up for the Waitlist will no longer matter, as long as they sign up during the time the Waitlist is open.

Also, teams will be selected randomly from the Waitlist, with the number of chances they have of being selected equal to the number of years they have missed attending Championship. As an example, if a team on the 2015 waitlist last attended Championship in 2012, that team has ‘missed’ Championship twice, and so will have their number ‘put in the hat’** twice. If a team on the 2015 waitlist last attended Championship in 2004, they have ‘missed’ Championship 10 times, and will have their number put in the hat 10 times.***

Teams who have never been to Championship will be considered as missing every year they have been a team. You will note this means that teams who attended Championship in 2014 will not be eligible for selection from the Waitlist. As a practical matter, though, since for several years Waitlist sign-ups for teams attending the prior year Championship have been later than those who had not attended the prior year, we rarely – if ever – have ended up inviting those prior-year teams anyway. One final note – teams must have participated in FRC during all their ‘missed’ years for those years to count in this system. As an example, for a team that participated in FRC in 2002, then did not participate again until 2005, we would only look back to 2005 in determining Championships missed.

Rookie All Star Changes for 2015

This is less of a change and more of a fine-tuning that we wanted to let you know about. Rookie All Star winners at Regionals, and District Championships, will still be offered a slot at Championship. However, we have noticed that at nearly every Regional, regardless of the number of Rookies present, Rookie All Star gets awarded. It has become more of an ‘automatic’ award then was intended. We will be working with the Judge Advisors this season to help clarify the standards for this award. We love having Rookies at Championship, and we absolutely want to recognize the many outstanding Rookies we have every year, but winning an award that makes a team eligible for Championship should be a big deal, and we want to keep it meaningful. We don’t expect, or desire, a significant drop in the number of Rookie All Star awards presented, but you may see a few more Regionals not presenting Rookie All Star award than you have in the past, and this will be the reason.

This issue is not a concern at District Championships, as Rookie All Stars selected there have already had to pass through a selection gate at the District level, and only one or two Rookie All Stars from each District as a whole are selected to go to the FIRST Championship.

Longer-Term Changes

To get serious now. While changes for 2015 Championship eligibility were easy for us, we see a problem on the horizon. We project that within a few years, our current system of Championship eligibility for Regionals will result in an overbooked situation. The task force continues to work on longer-term changes, and will release information on eligibility for later Championships by the end of October. You should know, though, that for us to ensure we don’t exceed our Championship capacity in later years, we will likely need to change eligibility rules, so some teams that have been eligible in the past will no longer be eligible. These won’t be easy decisions for us, but we are working very carefully to ensure the fairest result possible, and we will detail the reasons for our decisions when the information is released.

Frank

* I’m joking about that call.

** No actual hat will be used. We think.

*** Yes, this is the Hunger Games model, but you’re getting invited to an awesome party instead of near-certain death. No, you may not ‘volunteer as tribute’, wise guys.

No worries, I'm not dead, just busy. :)

Steven Donow

22-08-2014 12:12

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Good changes for the time being. Love the changes to wild card as well

Jon Stratis

22-08-2014 12:15

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Happy Championship and may the odds be ever in your favor!

brndn

22-08-2014 12:18

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Also, teams will be selected randomly from the Waitlist, with the number of chances they have of being selected equal to the number of years they have missed attending Championship.

This is interesting, and a great chance for teams who have never been there.

Jacob Bendicksen

22-08-2014 12:21

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

...we will likely need to change eligibility rules, so some teams that have been eligible in the past will no longer be eligible.

Is he talking about Hall of Fame teams losing their auto-bid, or just saying that the current system will be in flux? I'd hate to see that happen, but that was my impression from reading it.

Other than that, excellent changes overall, especially with wild cards.

MrTechCenter

22-08-2014 12:21

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Love the changes! This is by far the best and most fair championship eligibility system that FIRST has had yet.

thegnat05

22-08-2014 12:27

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I am really pleased with these changes and it definitely provides a great opportunity for teams who have never been to champs!

Does anyone know when registration for the waitlist will open? I know it was in early October last year.

Jon Stratis

22-08-2014 12:29

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Bendicksen (Post 1397580)

I think it means that any of the eligibility criteria could change. HoF teams, original and sustaining teams, past year's Champs winners and champs EI may or may not be affected. They may choose to reduce the number of teams that make it from each regional (3-4 winners + chairman's + EI + RA) by eliminating eligibility based on one or more awards or position in the alliance or something.

The point is, I don't think he's specifically stating that any specific eligibility criteria is going to change in the long run, just that something is going to change. We just don't know what that something is yet.

orangemoore

22-08-2014 12:29

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegnat05 (Post 1397586)

Does that matter?
The only thing you need to know now is when does it close.
:D

Jon Stratis

22-08-2014 12:31

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegnat05 (Post 1397586)

It looks like registration for pre-qualified teams starts on Oct 9, but I can't find anything on the calendar that talks about the wait list.

AllenGregoryIV

22-08-2014 12:42

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Love the changes. This does give a bigger advantage to teams that play at later events, since the odds are a few finalists at most of the later events will get spots.

cjl2625

22-08-2014 12:45

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I like the new wildcard rules.
So if you are an original and sustaining team, attend 3 regionals, win all of them, and also manage to win a Chairman's and an EI, do you generate a total of 8 wildcards? :P

Boe	22-08-2014 12:45

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Love the changes to the wild card system. If I'm reading it right teams that receive a wild card slot at an earlier event will also generate one if they compete later on right, or can wild cards qualifications not generate other wild cards?

notmattlythgoe

22-08-2014 12:48

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1397594)

Love the changes. This does give a bigger advantage to teams that play at later events, since the odds are a few finalists at most of the later events will get spots.

This is very true, our alliance at Chesapeake this season would have gone to the Championship even if we had lost in the finals since the other alliance all had already qualified at previous events.

orangemoore

22-08-2014 12:49

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boe (Post 1397597)

It Says

Quote:

any team arriving at a Regional who has already earned a Championship spot

So yes a wildcard spot recipient can make spots later.

Bryan Herbst

22-08-2014 12:49

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boe (Post 1397597)

Yes. A team that earned a wild card slot at a previous event has earned a spot at championships, and thus would generate a wildcard slot if they earned another spot at another event.

MARS_James

22-08-2014 12:53

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Echoing everyone else's statements about the changes, I think they are fair, and easily understood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boe (Post 1397597)

If I'm reading it right teams that receive a wild card slot at an earlier event will also generate one if they compete later on right, or can wild cards qualifications not generate other wild cards?

The way I am reading it ANYTHING that gets you to champs gets the wildcard slot so should make for some teams who are perennially "bridesmaids" finally making it.

I am not so sure about the RAS change though, I get why but how would you feel if you were a Rookie Team and get the Rookie Inspiration Award, and then there is no Rookie All Star, it is almost like the Regional telling you: "Aren't you cute playing in the sandbox, now stay off the jungle gym that is for the big boys" :( . Like I said, I get why just I think there are going to be some hurt feelings from rookies

EDIT:
Interesting to note that under the new system the entire finalist alliance at both Orlando and South Florida in 2013 would have qualified for championships

Akash Rastogi

22-08-2014 13:01

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1397602)

I am not so sure about the RAS change though, I get why but how would you feel if you were a Rookie Team and get the Rookie Inspiration Award, and then there is no Rookie All Star, it is almost like the Regional telling you: "Aren't you cute playing in the sandbox, now stay off the jungle gym that is for the big boys" :( . Like I said, I get why just I think there are going to be some hurt feelings from rookies

Depends what kind of mentality the mentors have. Teach your kids what's worth earning versus what's being handed to you if you're the only rookie at an event.

I think it's fair. I'd want to earn my award if I was on a rookie team again.

orangemoore

22-08-2014 13:03

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1397602)

It really isn't a change but going back to how the award was meant to be awarded and not always awarded.

Also there was an issue with the rookie awards at the Central Illinois Regional because there was only one.

indubitably

22-08-2014 13:09

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

This is great news, would have been the edge 2338 needed in 2014 to make it.

I'm curious how long this system can be maintained.

Taylor

22-08-2014 13:15

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

If the powers-that-be determine that they have no rookies eligible for the RAS, does that mean that regional sends 5 teams to CMP?

orangemoore

22-08-2014 13:24

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1397608)

If the powers-that-be determine that they have no rookies eligible for the RAS, does that mean that regional sends 5 teams to CMP?

That is what it sounds like.

PayneTrain

22-08-2014 13:38

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I imagine virtually none of these changes come as too much of a shock to anyone. Allowing the full force of the wild card system to come into effect was an obvious result of an expanded championship. I'm sure this was always the end-game of the wild card system, it just would have generated too many bids if it didn't have all the proper qualifiers attached to it in the 2013/2014 season. It goes a long way to discontinue the idea teams can be underrepresented, and doesn't paint double or more blue banner winners out to be bad guys (not saying it should happen anyway, but it does).

The RAS changes are going to come with some apprehension but I feel there isn't a silent majority against the change. Until recently you could have made the case for RCA's to have the same kind of added criteria but I think in the last couple years the bar for that award has been substantially raised worldwide.

In my opinion, the new implementation of the waitlist is a long time coming anyway. There is a selection system for waitlisted teams at regionals that is more than first-come, first-serve, so why not for Championships? It's too important of an event to have it boil down to a fastest-finger competition; save it for the veterans trying to cram themselves into the Palmetto Regional :rolleyes:

Big fan of all 3 moves.

Jared Russell

22-08-2014 14:22

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Prediction: There will be at least 5 times in 2015 where at least one wildcard slot vanishes due to the number of created wildcard spots exceeding the number of previously-not-qualified finalist teams. At least twice, you will see multiple wildcard bids go unused at the same event.

pimathbrainiac

22-08-2014 14:28

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I like the new wildcard and wait list changes, as they appear to be a bit more fair.
As for the eventual capacity overload, is one of the potential solution ideas moving the championship location? I'd love to see it back in Atlanta. :D
In all seriousness, approximately how long do we have until we run out of room in St. Louis, and simply can't do it there anymore?

MrTechCenter

22-08-2014 14:37

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1397622)

*Cough Cough* Silicon Valley Regional *Cough Cough*

Patrick Flynn

22-08-2014 15:22

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that will take these new rules into consideration when picking alliances?
Would anyone decline to stay on the opposite side of the bracket from a powerful 1 seed? Will competitions now be a battle for the finals with winning the event not being as important?
What does everything think?*

*i don't want to debate the ethics on making this decision.

AllenGregoryIV

22-08-2014 15:26

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn (Post 1397634)

This has already happened and will continue to happen. It's also more beneficial to be the captain of your alliance than to accept an invitation. Teams are still going to try to win but they also have motivation to ensure a 2nd place finish over a hard fought semifinal loss to the eventual champs.

Gregor

22-08-2014 15:28

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn (Post 1397634)

This has been occurring since wildcards were first introduced. I've had a team ask me not to pick them since I was on the 'wrong side' of the bracket.

waialua359

22-08-2014 15:42

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

HOF teams can now generate a wild card spot.
Does this mean that at every event we attend (most likely 3), we generate a wild card each time?

If so, that would be pretty neat!

The wild card we gave out at Dallas, turned out to be the 2014 Championship winner. ;)

Gregor

22-08-2014 15:42

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1397642)

HOF teams can now generate a wild card spot.
Does this mean that at every event we attend (most likely 3), we generate a wild card each time?

Only if you win the event.

MARS_James

22-08-2014 15:45

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1397643)

Only if you win the event.

Or get Engineering Inspiration

Gregor

22-08-2014 15:46

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1397644)

Or get Engineering Inspiration

Another nice part is that if they're finalists they don't eat the wildcard spot from their alliance partner either.

waialua359

22-08-2014 15:49

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

OK. I just reread and get it.

In the recent past,
we won the 1st event, no wild card generated.
we won the 2nd event, it generated a wild card because we won the 1st event.
we won the 3rd event, it generated a wild card because we won the 2nd event.

Based on this year's rule,
if we win the 1st event, now a wild card is generated for being a HOF team.

AlexD744

22-08-2014 15:57

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1397602)

I've been on several judging teams, and sometimes there are only a few rookies at an event and none of them meet the criteria that the award describes. However, the precedent is to give out all the awards possible (except judge's award), so that's what happens. I don't see this new standard affecting a lot of places, but I think it'll be good to have a 'from the top' standard in the rare cases that it's needed.

Awesome note about Florida finals though, hopefully that continues as 744 seems to have gotten good at making finals lol

JVN	22-08-2014 16:08

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1397646)

Based on this year's rule,
if we win the 1st event, now a wild card is generated for being a HOF team.

The word "earned" makes me wonder about this. It depends on how you squint at it. In the past we were told that being pre-qualified didn't count as having "earned" a spot to Championship. Is that still true?

Jon Stratis

22-08-2014 16:13

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by JVN (Post 1397648)

Quote:

As an example, if a Hall of Fame team (who is pre-qualified for Championship before the season starts) ends up on the Winning Alliance, that will now generate a Wild Card slot for the Finalist Alliance.

So according to the blog, pre-qualified teams do create spots.

jvriezen

22-08-2014 16:20

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

I mostly like the changes but have an observation:

It seems simplistic to get one waitlist chance in the hat per year not attending champs. Consider that you get 1 chance in 2015. If you don't make it, ignoring more non-wait list slots the next year) your chances of getting selected off the wait list doubles to two chance the following year. However, if you still don't make it, your chances only increase by 50% (from 2 to 3) the next year. As each year passes, your odds go up by a lesser percentage. Combine that with increasing numbers on the wait list and your chances might actually go down at some point. Should the scale between years not attending and chances given be non-linear? I'll admit, I'm biased, as our team has never been to champs (come close several times!) since our rookie 2008 year.

waialua359

22-08-2014 16:22

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by JVN (Post 1397648)

Wondering as well.
The whole pre-qualified example really caught my attention.

To be honest, with championships increasing to a 600 capacity, I would much rather see all winners and finalists being eligible and not having to go through all of this trouble. This keeps it consistent for all regionals.

As mentioned earlier, going to a later regional or to a regional where more pre-qualified teams are present, will have advantages.

Chris is me

22-08-2014 16:23

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Bendicksen (Post 1397580)

I think if he was talking about this, he would have said it. Frank doesn't beat around the bush. I would interpret this statement as a blanket statement that the qualification criteria overall may see changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjl2625 (Post 1397595)

You would generate five or six. 3x regional winner, 1x CA, 1x EI. If you won EI at both of your other events, there would be a sixth wild card.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn (Post 1397634)

It was an issue before, and I honestly think it will be slightly less of an issue now. The creation of additional wild cards and the inclusion of pre-qualified teams means that the first pick of an alliance now has a much greater chance of attending the Championship. If you play through various wild card scenarios from last season, you'll see that the first pick of the finalist alliance gets invited far more often.

Take for example this year's FLR. Say through some miracle, the 341-2791-4930 alliance made it to the finals against the other side of the bracket, 3015-340-3044. Under the old rules, if the 340 alliance won, one wildcard would be generated through 340's prior CA win, which would be "spent" on 341, a prequalified team. Under the new rules, not only would that wild card be passed down to 2791, 340 would generate a second wild card by winning EI at Finger Lakes. (This wild card would be "wasted" as 4930 had already won Rookie All Star)

There's also more opportunity to qualify at earlier events. Take TVR, a first event for nearly every team attending. When 20, 1126, and 229 won the event, no wild cards were generated. However, under the new rules, 20 would generate a wild card upon winning, allowing team 250 the chance to attend the Championship.

I'm very happy with this change.

MechEng83

22-08-2014 16:41

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1397598)

This is very true, our alliance at Chesapeake this season would have gone to the Championship even if we had lost in the finals since the other alliance all had already qualified at previous events.

Not quite true. Our alliance captain and second pick had qualified through winning and R.A.S, respectively, at previous regionals. Under the new rules, 1741 would have qualified from 1629's Win+RCA. Had the Finals matches gone the other way, 2 wildcards would have been generated in both systems. The only difference is that 1629's RCA would have pushed the wildcard down to your 2nd pick robot.

Bryce Paputa

22-08-2014 16:59

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Last year Michigan had 10.3% (329 out of 3195 according to the first website) of of all teams, and I saw some semi official prediction somewhere that predicted much more growth next year. If we get to the point where 10.7% of all teams are in Michigan, then all 64 teams at MSC would qualify for worlds under this blog's rules. Even if the percentage stayed the same and 60 or so qualified, I could see this as being an issue. The obvious solution is get a bigger state championship, but EMU's convocation center probably can't hold any more teams. Are there any larger possible venues? Maybe two separate state championship events? I guess we'll see pretty soon when they release the dates for registration.

MooreteP

22-08-2014 17:25

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1397655)

To be honest, with championships increasing to a 600 capacity, I would much rather see all winners and finalists being eligible and not having to go through all of this trouble.

That's assuming that each division would have 100 teams.
I wouldn't be surprised to see each division with 80 teams in 2015 with an increase in the number of matches played.

This allows for an eventual increase to 100 teams per division over the next few years to accommodate growth.

MrTechCenter

22-08-2014 18:53

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Paputa (Post 1397663)

Where'd you get 3,195 FRC teams last year? It was my understanding that there were just under 3,000 for the 2014 season. And even if Michigan grows more next year, other geographic areas might grow as well.

Knufire

22-08-2014 19:10

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

The search page on usfirst.org (http://www.usfirst.org/whats-going-on) has some inconsistencies, teams that never competitive, things like that.

Navid Shafta of GameSense/1983 has this spreadsheet up that seems to have more accurate numbers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...H_E/edit#gid=0

MI was 10.22% of FRC in 2014, having 277 of 2710 teams. This would be 61 spots with a 600 team championship.

cjl2625

22-08-2014 21:04

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1397656)

You would generate five or six. 3x regional winner, 1x CA, 1x EI. If you won EI at both of your other events, there would be a sixth wild card.

Well, aren't original and sustaining teams prequalified for CMP?
So if such a team attended 3 regionals, wouldn't that automatically create 3 more wildcards?

Edit: I reread the first post, I guess it doesn't

Jon Stratis

23-08-2014 10:04

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Paputa (Post 1397663)

What about splitting it into two separate districts? East and West, or north and south, whatever makes the most sense. Then each district would have 5% of teams, and the two separate championships would make sense.

Koko Ed

23-08-2014 10:17

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1397644)

Or get Engineering Inspiration

I know MOE really want to win EI.

rsisk

23-08-2014 10:34

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1397723)

I know MOE really want to win EI.

They did at Chestnut Hill last year

Navid Shafa

25-08-2014 21:26

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knufire (Post 1397683)

Navid Shafta

*Get Shafted* :p

See you this weekend Rahul!

Christopher149

25-08-2014 21:56

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1397721)

At first blush, geographically, north/south or Detroit area/not-Detroit area might work best.

Deke	26-08-2014 14:07

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Paputa (Post 1397663)

I think the interesting part is going to be how the wait list is handled. If 60+ teams from FiM go to champs only through qualifying through MSC, then there are no more wait list slots available.

So I guess the question is if FiM had 60 slots, are they going to all have to qualify with enough district points, or will there be a FiM wait list?

Another way to look at it, is First setting up 400ish qualifying spots for champs and 200ish wait list slots. Does that mean 40 qualifying for FiM and the other 20 spots are wait listed throughout First? Should those 20 spots be reserved for FiM teams on the wait list?

Maybe someone knows, but that is unclear to me. That should answer if MSC needs to expand or not. I know there were a lot of good teams at MSC that didn't make the cut last year. Hopefully we can make it to MSC next year.

Steven Donow

26-08-2014 15:12

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity2718 (Post 1398049)

Wait list doesn't count towards the "% representation of FRC=% of teams at Championship"

Bryce Paputa

26-08-2014 23:05

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by compwiztobe (Post 1398123)

Everyone seems to want representation at CMP proportional to geographical team population. I've even heard that districts get an advantage in this sense, and that traditional regional teams are losing out. But this spreadsheet shows that no geographical area is more than 3 teams "in the hole" ... except Michigan, who's down by 8. On the other hand, Ontario (still with traditional regionals, albeit 5 of them) is sending 14 more teams than their "fair share." And yet I don't think anyone would argue that these Ontario teams shouldn't be there...

Michigan was down by 8 last year because the proportion of teams used to decide the amount of world qualifiers was from 2013 instead of the current year and ignored the large growth we had last year. This year it will be based on the correct year so this shouldn't be much of an issue.

pntbll1313

26-08-2014 23:07

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by compwiztobe (Post 1398123)

That "Actual CMP Rep" seems extremely misleading to me. A normal person would read that and say, "Minnesota was represented by 24 teams at champs in 2014". Where in reality there were 24 total slots handed out at Minnesota regionals, but only 16 Minnesota teams went.

Aren Siekmeier

26-08-2014 23:13

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by pntbll1313 (Post 1398125)

Yes, I just noticed this... That spreadsheet only shows the regional slots available, I'll amend my previous post.

Deke	27-08-2014 12:20

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Donow (Post 1398057)

Wait list doesn't count towards the "% representation of FRC=% of teams at Championship"

Right, I think I am not writing my question clearly.

So if X number of regionals generates X number of championship spots, and that is subtracted from the 600 available spots. What number are the district's percentage applied to for their championship spots? Is it 600 or factored in from the regional teams qualified?

It looks like the going forward strategy is to get teams to champs that haven't been there in a while via the wait list, so it doesn't seem correct that FiM would get 10% of the 600, the ratio seems off to me. It should be factored according to the number of qualified teams of regionals.

If it was 100% district's, it wouldn't matter because they could choose whatever % they wanted, but regionals and district's complicate matters a bit.

MARS_James

27-08-2014 12:44

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity2718 (Post 1398158)

Your words still confuse me let me see if I can answer what I think you are asking. The percentage representation of a district will NOT be calculated out of 600 just like last year it was NOT calculated out of 400.

An FRC Blog located here explains how the calculations will work. The only difference being numbers, instead of 27 prequalified teams out of 400 we now have 32 (The same number of sustaining teams, 1 more hall of fame team, 3 more Engineering Inspiration Award winners, and 1 more Einstein winner than last year) out of 600. So if Michigan had 277 out of 2707 they had 10.23% of all FRC teams, assuming that remains equal they will have (600-32)*.1023 teams or 58 teams (These same numbers can be used for all districts just sub out .1023 for their representation)

Deke	27-08-2014 12:56

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1398161)

That does answer it, thanks!

pntbll1313

27-08-2014 13:14

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity2718 (Post 1398164)

That does answer it, thanks!

Well now you have me over thinking it so I don't understand... Say for example they increased champs to 1032 teams for math easiness sake. There are now 1000 total available slots for teams to qualify for and we are saying Fim get 10.23% or 102 teams. FIM would have just increased it's total qualifying from 58 to 102 because championship expanded to 1032 instead of 600. However, regionals still only give away 6 slots each, no matter how huge championship gets. Then of course all teams that did not qualify from either districts or regionals can get in through the wait-list, but I still see districts getting a proportionately larger representation everytime champs increase size, while regionals do not.

What am I still not understanding?

Deke	27-08-2014 13:30

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by pntbll1313 (Post 1398167)

I agree with you it doesn't seem fair the way James explained the calculation because it eliminates the wait list slots. It relies on regionals to set the pace.

To make it fair no teams from district's should be on the First wait list, or each district has its own wait list based on the slots they are given.
Edit: based on the explained calculation.

That's why I was asking how they calculate the allocated slots.

Edit: if it were all regionals or all district's everything gets simplified, it's the combination that's complicated.

Mr V	27-08-2014 18:08

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by pntbll1313 (Post 1398167)

It is true that the current plan is to give district a portion of the available positions at CMP based on the percentage of teams they represent.

At this point FIRST may not expand to that full 600 team CMP, that is still under discussion. There will be more than 400 spaces but may not be a full 600 this season. Regionals will get increased numbers of spots for two reasons #1 the number of Regionals are increasing #2 the new wild card rules means that it will be a rare occurrence for less than 6 teams to earn a spot at a Regional. In the past the average was certainly less than 6 teams, I've seen a few events where there were only 4 new unique teams that earned a spot.

Yes the way the wait list is now set up may favor district teams slightly. The reality is that you have to purposely decided to join the wait list and I suspect that the percentage of teams that will join the waitlist from a District will be less than teams that compete at regionals. The "always a bridesmaid, never a bride" teams that are now in a district have a significantly higher likelihood of going to CMP than similar teams that compete at Regionals. In the long run that means that a far lower percentage of District teams will qualify under the new wait list system.

Anthony Galea

27-08-2014 22:27

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARS_James (Post 1398161)

So if Michigan had 277 out of 2707 they had 10.23% of all FRC teams, assuming that remains equal they will have (600-32)*.1023 teams or 58 teams (These same numbers can be used for all districts just sub out .1023 for their representation)

I would just like to point out that, if I remember correctly from 2014, 27, 51, and 67 (HOF) all do not take up FiM qualification spots, creating 3 pseudo-wildcard slots, upping the calculated number to 61.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Knufire

28-08-2014 03:52

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3175student17 (Post 1398247)

So do 469 and 74 for the 2015 season.

Chris Hibner

28-08-2014 07:07

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3175student17 (Post 1398247)

It's really early in the morning and my memory might be fuzzy, but from what I remember what you say isn't exactly true.

The HOF teams are auto-qualified, BUT we do not (at least did not in past years) create wildcards for the district. FiM sends X (58 in the above example) point-qualified teams regardless of any other status those teams have. In other words, if team my team (51) fails to qualify, FiM would send 58 qualified teams and we would go on our HOF exemption, resulting in 59 teams from FiM at champs. However, if we qualify on points then FiM still sends 58 qualified teams and our slot at champs for our HOF status opens up for the wait list. (At least this is how I remember it.)

Deke	28-08-2014 07:45

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner (Post 1398271)

That is how I remember it too. Any team that qualifies at an outside regional or any HOF team from a district claims a spot from that district. 217 was one example of this this year, chairman's at a regional but not enough district points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1398212)

teams that are now in a district have a significantly higher likelihood of going to CMP than similar teams that compete at Regionals.

I'm not sure that is a fair statement, the district system fairly effectively rises the cream to the top and scrapes it off to champs. The stats on district teams finishing position in champs is pretty telling. Whereas in regionals teams can get carried to championships being a 3rd pick on a finalist. Either case, it is not easy to make it to champs, each team that makes it there deserves it.

PayneTrain

28-08-2014 16:30

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knufire (Post 1398269)

So do 469 and 74 for the 2015 season.

Meaning, if that is right, with 2014 MSC numbers (64) and 2015 projected allocation, AND if the HOF provision is modified (I think), absolutely everyone with a pit in Ypsilanti will be able to get one in St Louis...

...except for 1 team.

EDIT: The way I look at allocation is that everyone who earns a berth to championships outside of the current seasonal qualification system (F&S, HoF, previous winners of BBAs) are in a separate pool entirely. FIRST HQ puts on Championship and invites a subset of teams outside, so with "x" being the final number of slots and "y" being the number of teams HQ invites outside of seasonal qualification, and "z" being the total number of teams in FRC, the allocation percentage = (x-y)/z.

Basel A

28-08-2014 17:21

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1398321)

Depends on how many of the new spots get allocated to EI and RAS as well as how many of those EI and RAS teams make it to MSC. Personally I have no problem with everyone at MSC making it. I think it's awesome (though only 1 or 2 or 5 teams not making it would be sad). The bigger problem with MSC is that it has become too selective, with legitimately good teams left out. The options to address this, however, are best left to a different thread.

Ernst

28-08-2014 18:05

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1398321)

What if you allocate a proportional number of spots to every district based on their percentage of FRC, but split that number of allocated spots up according to the proportion of non-District teams attending CMP by winning a Regional vs. by getting in from the waitlist.

So, hypothetically, say there are 3000 teams in FRC and 600 at CMP. Let's say that Districts account for 33% of teams, so 1000 of the 3000, or 200 of the 600 CMP spots. Of the 2000 Regional teams, 400 will get to CMP. Let's say there are 60 Regionals, each qualifying a perfect 6 teams, and all attend CMP, giving 360 teams. Of the Regional teams' 400 spots, there are now 40 remaining for the waitlist. Applying that proportion to the district teams would mean 20 total would get in from the waitlist. If FiM has 300 teams, they get 60 CMP spots in total, with 6 of those being waitlist spots.

I simplified the numbers a bit to make the math really easy. I think that this could solve some of the fairness problems people have discussed and also potentially fix the MSC problem.

Anthony Galea

28-08-2014 20:06

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3175student17 (Post 1398247)

I just got around to fact checking, and FiM was supposed to send 32 teams to CMP in 2014 according to this, but according to the final point tally here, if you account for 107 declining and 217's Buckeye Chairmans spot, 34 teams were sent.

highlander

20-10-2014 17:20

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Just wondering when Champs lottery sign ups open. Haven't seen anything about that yet...

EricH

20-10-2014 22:05

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlander (Post 1405116)

Just wondering when Champs lottery sign ups open. Haven't seen anything about that yet...

Open waitlist starts 10/23, 1200 EST. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ility-criteria

Jay O'Donnell

20-10-2014 22:35

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1405168)

Open waitlist starts 10/23, 1200 EST. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ility-criteria

Has anyone else noticed that under "Aerial Assist winners" it lists the four finalists?

orangemoore

20-10-2014 22:40

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1405168)

Open waitlist starts 10/23, 1200 EST. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ility-criteria

If you look under

Quote:

2014 FIRST Championship

"Aerial Assist" Winners"
1678,1114,1640, 5136

Didn't 254 and others win?

Caleb Sykes

20-10-2014 23:33

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1405175)

Didn't 254 and others win?

I suspect a very delayed technical foul on the blue alliance. :p

That or one of the blue alliance teams were told that their robot was legal for eliminations, but they were given a retroactive red card because their robot was not legal for eliminations... No, that could never happen. :rolleyes:

Whippet

21-10-2014 00:33

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Obviously a game hint. The 2015 game will be played with a golf-style scoring system.

Zebra_Fact_Man

21-10-2014 16:24

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whippet (Post 1405188)

Obviously a game hint. The 2015 game will be played with a golf-style scoring system.

Oh, stop it.

crake

22-10-2014 11:30

Re: [FRC Blog] 2015 FIRST Championship (and beyond) Eligibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1405175)

Didn't 254 and others win?

That looks to have been corrected.

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