[FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Hi All,

The official forums don't seem to be open yet (at least I see no team login and password on my team summary pages yet). I thought I'd share some thoughts on discrepancies I noticed between the game video and the field setup guide that caused us some confusion.

#1. From the field setup guide page 19, if you are looking at the kickstand with your alliance color, then your alliance's center goal should be to the left side of the center structure.

The very first shot of the field in the game video at 3:21 has it wrong! The blue alliance center goal is shown on the right of the blue alliance kickstand. It's also shown incorrectly at time 3:34, but correctly at times 3:28 and 3:45.

#2. There is no white tape on the official field, and the 3 center structure rotations are NOT 45 degrees from each other as shown in the video! In particular, the middle rotation shown in the game video at 3:47 is NOT correct. Page 19 of the field setup guide states that the middle rotation should have one edge of the center structure parallel with the perimeter, resulting in a rotation more like 60deg and less like 45deg.

#3. The orientations of the rotations shown for the center structure from 3:45 to 3:48 in the video are wrong! Page 19 of the field setup guide specifically states that the kickstands should rotate around the 90deg pointing at an alliance's ramp/platform, which results in the center goals rotating around the 90deg pointing at the initial starting points of the opposing alliance's rolling goals. The video shows the rotations being completely different with the kickstands rotating towards the rolling goals and the center goals rotating towards the ramp/platforms!

Essentially, the first rotation at 3:45 in the video is correct, but from there the two other rotations should be rotating COUNTER-CLOCKWISE from above, not CLOCKWISE from above as shown in the video!

Why do these matter?

#1 matters because if done correctly, each alliances kickstands AND center goals will always face their alliance side or at worst be perpendicular to the alliance sides. If done incorrectly, an alliance's center goal could end up facing away from an alliance! This would make autonomous center goal scoring virtually impossible and autonomous center goal defense very easy.

#2 matters because you may need to know the exact amounts of rotation of the center structure for any autonomous kickstand-knocking or center-goal-scoring.

#3 matters because you won't find the kickstands or center goals anywhere near where they're shown in the video for the 2nd and 3rd rotations in an actual match! Check page 19 of the field setup guide for their actual positions in the 3 rotations.

BTW, I really hope that the field setup guide is correct and that the video is wrong, because that would result in kickstands and goals pointing towards the starting position of an alliance making autonomous offense easier and autonomous defense harder. If the video is right, then autonomous center goal scoring is likely to be nearly impossible as the center goal would be pointing away from an alliance's starting positions!

Good luck to all teams!

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

It wouldn't be the first time a game unveil video was incorrect to the rules. I remember a few years ago they had a simulated match in the video. At the end the scoring was wrong!

The video is just there to give you the basic understanding of the game, the rules and set up guide are what tournaments will have with them to set up and are the rules so go with that! That's what at 6:25 it says read the manual.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

I believe the order of precedence still applies in FTC: Q&A > Manual > Video

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Yes, but the problem is that the setup is shown in the Field Setup Guide and not described in detail in the Game Manual.

Obviously a question to the Q&A should settle matters, but I hope teams don't go off and design autonomous routines expecting the center goal or kickstand to be somewhere that they'll never be based only on the video...

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

I was trained as an FTA yesterday (which included building a field at kickoff), and I can tell you that unless FIRST tells us differently, the field setup guide is effectively our manual. I can't speak for individual match changes (rotation), but I can say there won't be white lines on the competition field unless something changes. Same goes for the center goal as you mentioned in number one.

Still, asking this in Q&A would clear up any remaining ambiguity.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Great! Thanks. I will ask on Q&A when it opens.

Also, I've created a modified game video with annotations that point out the errors in the video. It's at the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RodL4HOBA5U

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Not to mention that the robot continued to hit the clear tubing on the rolling goals. A big no-no in this game.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

That's not true

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Oops, thanks, read that wrong...

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Its better to point that out now and not try to design for a harder challenge.
:D

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Does anybody know what happens to the support pipes at the end of the autonomies mode, if knocked down will it just lay there or will it be removed by the field ref? if it is not knocked down will the ref remove it and release the balls. If the ref does not remove it than we have to knock it down and it will than be in the way for the rest of the game.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

A cursory inspection of the game manual does not seem to reveal any rules about the removal of the kickstand. As it is not mentioned, I would assume it will be left on the field. This is reasonable question to ask in Q&A if you (or your students) cannot find anything in the manual concerning the kickstand post-release.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

At the Kettering University FTC Kickoff in Flint Mi. We tested the Kickstand and hitting it low it was difficult to dislodge but hitting it mid-way or high it went flying and would end up partially in the field area which would be a problem driving around it. I am sure that it could be removed during the pause after aton but it could not be removed during game play.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Unless there's a rule specifically saying that field debris or specifically the kickstand should be removed from play, it's quite unlikely that refs wil be removing a released kickstand. I would not plan on it being removed unless you have a specific Q&A ruling or a rule in the manual to point to.

That being said, if a possible design you have is going to run into trouble if the kickstand is still on the field, you might want to rethink your design-- there are bigger obstacles on this field to locomotion than the kickstand.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

In the game video, it implied that the points from the center goal could be worth up to 720 points because it already starts at 90 cm. Is the height of the balls scored during end game in the center goal measured from the base of the playing field or the base of the center goal?

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

The general speculation is that you get 6 points per cm above the base of the tube, meaning starting from 90 cm for the center tube. So while those points can add up, it doesn't start at 90 for one ball as is implied in the game video.

At least that seems to be the consensus reading from the game manual. We'll find out the official answer when the Game Forum opens up soon.

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

FYI, the GDC just reversed themselves and now the middle center structure rotation is 45 degrees. See this post for more information.

http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/showthre...ll=1#post11327

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Yet the pictures on page 19 don't show a 45 degree angle. They need to sit down together and figure out what it actually is....

Re: [FTC]: Discrepancies between Game Video and Field Setup Guide
 

Use the drawings on page 29-Those are the right ones.

Field Build Guide