Re: Registration 2015
 

Maybe - but then don't ask for volunteers in Ypsi if it's not going to be there. If it involves travel and hotels because it's in a different location, shouldn't the volunteers know that?

Re: Registration 2015
 

The same could be said of teams regarding needing to know if there's travel involved. The FiM page has said for awhile now that the location for states is "To Be Determined." Hopefully it'll be announced soon so volunteers and teams can plan, but if the trade-off for waiting is a bigger event I can't complain :)

Edited to add: It would be nice however if they would make an official announcement about current status of the location. Especially whether they are just considering moving and looking into options, or whether it is definitely moving.

Re: Registration 2015
 

A few events are adding teams this morning from the waitlists.

Re: Registration 2015
 

still wait listed.....zzz...zzz....

Re: Registration 2015
 

The Pistons have home games on the 8th, 10th, and 12th so the Palace is out.
However the Red Wings last home game is the 7th, and the playoffs don't start until after MSC would wrap up. The arena's website currently doesn't list any concerts or other events that weekend. So Joe Louis is a possibility, schedule-wise. Whether it would fit more teams than Ypsilanti is a separate question. Most hockey-arena events I've been to fit around 50-60 teams if the pit space is also on the arena floor. However, the Cobo Center is adjacent (attached?) to Joe Louis, so the pit space could potentially be moved there, similar to how it is at Championship.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Team 5701 has registered from Japan, and is planning to attend the Hawaii Regional. Is this the first Japanese team?

Re: Registration 2015
 

If they stick around, then they will be the first competing Japanese team.

Re: Registration 2015
 

It would be cool playing in a venue with as much history as the Joe before it gets demolished. As long as nobody throws an octopus on the field during eliminations!

Re: Registration 2015
 

I am now planning a trip to throw a plush octopus onto the field

Re: Registration 2015
 

I have heard talk of this. It holds 20,000 people and with the cobo center there would be room for pits.
I have also thought there might be enough room at Ford Field. I would think there would be enough room on the floor to do pits and a field. Of course this would all be changed if they wanted to do 2 fields.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Michigan now has 344 teams with 78 rookies. This means we need 18 district events for sure. Still has 13 veteran teams from last year not registered (or waitlisted) for events. There may even be rookie teams still not assigned an event yet.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Plush? Amateur...

Re: Registration 2015
 

Awesome the international growth this season. Hopefully it continues.

5553 from France I believe is the first French team, unless I'm mistaken.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Past 2800 teams this morning.
74 teams have been added to event rosters over the past 24 hours.

Re: Registration 2015
 

REf FIM: Kentwood district event (new this year) is open of registration now.

Re: Registration 2015
 

18 events? With Kentwood that makes only 17 as of now.

Escananba has 28 teams right now, and Traverse City has 31. If I counted correctly, there are about 12 teams who have Esky as home event that are probably waitlisted for Traverse (31 + 12 = 43 > 40). I wouldn't mind an 18th event somewhere up north.

Edit: With some newer additions at Esky, that's more like 15 UP teams that are likely waitlisted at Traverse (the 16th is going to West Michigan).

Re: Registration 2015
 

344 Teams x 2 Events each = 688 total spots needed (barring any more teams)

688 spots needed. 17 Events x 40 Spots = 680 spots available.

18th Event needed.

Re: Registration 2015
 

It is not out of the question to have 41 or 42 teams at a District competition, is it?

Re: Registration 2015
 

Its possible but they need an 18th event to facilitate third plays.

Re: Registration 2015
 

There is no requirement for 3rd plays.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Michigan is now at 350 teams, so the theoretical 18th event is half full. Also the previously stated demand for 3rd events. (Edited to add: Not that the 3rd play is required or anything, but FiM seems to have a unstated goal of getting as many teams as much play time as possible. This is based upon previous statements from multiple board members, and multiple years of many 3rd play spots).

If they ever ended up really in a jam, or team counts were only over capacity by one or two teams, I could see that being a last resort sort of option.

Re: Registration 2015
 

There isn't but considering registration fees for third plays do not go to FIRST but instead stay in the district it is in the district's best interest to have those slots available.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Third plays do not need to be in the state of Michigan. With the new inter-district play option, there are many opportunities for MI teams to play more than twice without the $4k registration fee.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Yeah but from my understanding the 3rd play fee goes to the district where the play occurs. 3rd play fees are counted on in a district's annual budget. While small overall every bit helps and is needed to make this work.

From the team standpoint the cost of a 3rd play in another district ramps up travel costs significantly in many cases, so most would probably rather play in their home district from that stand point.

Re: Registration 2015
 

I'm having difficulty making the math work out in favor of adding a district event. 40 district teams paying third-event fees, set against the cost of putting on a competition, seems unlikely to be a money-positive proposition to me. But if the organizers can make it happen, the benefits to the teams in the region are good.

Re: Registration 2015
 

The money a team pays towards its first two district events do not go to the district to fund that event. Those go to FIRST which does not give a district event money to run your event (in our case the Reading and UNH district events). The money to run those events the district has to raise.

This is what I have been told if this is not the case someone can set me straight. :)

Also in the wake of adding a new event some teams may drop their first or second events to they can attend the new event if it is closer so it would become a "primary" event for a good number of teams.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Alan is saying

40 X Registration Fee < Cost of District

You are correct that the money goes to the District System. But Alan is saying that's not economically viable as the sole reason to do another district.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Howzit!

Team 3880 – The Tiki Techs - Have received their final conformations and will be competing at the Australia, Hawaii and Silicon Valley regionals!

Looking forward to an exciting season.

Aloha!

Re: Registration 2015
 

This is super fuzzy information, nobody quote me on this, but I recall districts being in the 7K-14K range. This post here from 2009 used to link to a presentation that showed the breakdown of how much was spent on each event. Does anybody have that document, or a more recent equivalent?

That said, there's a lot more to running an event that just the dollar cost, there's also drain on volunteers and limits on time and field availability to consider. The actual "cost" of an event is much higher than the dollar amount spent, and thus even if there is a slight financial gain from 3rd plays the biggest value is probably in team experience/satisfaction gained from more time on the field.

Edited to add: Okay I was wrong, average cost for a district (in 2009 anyway) was 24K. That's what I get for trying to remember things from 5 years ago. In my defense, the event I was involved in came in at around 10K :) Thanks Christopher149 for finding that. I wonder if there is more recent data in a similar vein?

Re: Registration 2015
 

Here ya go. It says "Total expenses for the 7 events: $170,000".

I'm amused to see our robot in the Traverse picture.

Re: Registration 2015
 

When we were in the running for another West Michigan event last year, I was quoted absolute minimum of $14-18k from FiM. I don't think that FiM would care much about the cost of a district event as it is the event organizers that have to raise funds for the event. The 3rd event registration money would go straight to FiM. The money for running the event would be raised through local sponsorship and donations.

Re: Registration 2015
 

They also vary region to region and by the standards set by the district leadership. i.e. NE District events tend to come in between $30-40k, while what you typically hear from MI, their events come in under $30k if not less.

Re: Registration 2015
 

It depends on both the cost of that particular event, which does vary and how much the district charges for additional plays. Based on the average PNW district event costs and our additional play fee ($1000) adding another district event, assuming you get enough teams to actually have an event, would result in a net "profit".

For each team in a District the district gets to keep $1000. And yes adding an event could certainly cause some teams that are already registered for 2 events dropping one of those and adding the new event.

Re: Registration 2015
 

It is the district that has ultimate fiscal responsibility for all the events in their district. I'm not sure how FiM does it but in the PNW we don't raise money for a specific event we raise money for all district events and the costs for all district events come out of the same account. Now we do have a title sponsor for our DCMP for which they receive naming rights and all of their funds are applied to the DCMP. Of course FiM has their own procedures for handling their finances.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Average District Event cost for FIRSTinMichigan was $18,000 for 2014. We ran 15 district events last season.

Re: Registration 2015
 

I was not the first one to reach for the spotlight button, and probably not the last.

To put this in the volunteer's perspective: FiM ran 1200 qualifying matches and fifteen elimination brackets, for the same budget some regionals have burned through to run 96 qualifying matches and one bracket. This is possible because FiM musters and manages an insanely dedicated corps of volunteers. We really, really like to play robots. :]

Re: Registration 2015
 

New chart fun.
Team count (vet/rookie/total) by country/state/province
2823 teams right now.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Wow Michigan, wow. And in case anyone didn't notice, FIM has penciled in an 18th event for week 1, location TBD.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Just to observe the obvious:

1) 18 district competitions will support 360 teams, if no team takes a third play in-state before MSC.

2) 18 events means three per week for six weeks.

The first of these obvious observations points back to one of the main reasons FiM was formed -- to ensure enough playing slots for all Michigan teams. The second obvious observation makes us think about how to ensure this when the number of Michigan teams exceeds 360, which seems likely very soon. Extend the season, or run more than three events per week?

Re: Registration 2015
 

When talking to other robots people, we talked about an extended season. The problem is, which way do you go? Push the season out or have kickoff earlier. Each has there pros and cons. Mainly the holiday season.

Re: Registration 2015
 

There's a third alternative. Expand the size of max capacity of district events.

How many "key volunteers" (FTA/FTAA, MC/GA, FS, etc) does Michigan have? How many weeks per season do these folks have to volunteer to make the current schedule work? How many fields does FiM own?

Re: Registration 2015
 

I can tell you that FiM is continuing to train volunteers, to expand our "key volunteer" pool. We have a really strong group of volunteers already, and it grows with each season.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Kickoff in early October.
Robots built by Thanksgiving.
Districts/Regionals January through early March.
WCMP in late March/Early April.

Re: Registration 2015
 

At what point do you want us to train new members on everthing they need to know? This only gives us the month of September which is not enough time. The ability to secure venues (at least in Florida) in January-March is a nightmare and we would have to pay a very high amount to said venues when we do.

We can not move the 6 build season to before January it won't work, we can't extend the competition season unless you want to either allow for your first official event to start 2 days after stop build or end 4 days before Champs.

Re: Registration 2015
 

It was like the sound of thousands of hours of sleep crying out and suddenly being silenced.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Then you run into FTC and FLL season. Won't work.

Re: Registration 2015
 

...and teams playing with their practice robots all through holiday break.

Re: Registration 2015
 

That's possible but could eliminate current venues as 40 teams is the max some venues can facilitate between the pit space and space in the stands. If FIM districts increased capacity by five slots and assuming it has 18 districts with three per weekend it would allow for 45 new teams and 90 new spots.

With how fast Michigan has been growing that solution most likely won't get them through 2016. I'm sure FIM is looking at viable options they can implement.

Re: Registration 2015
 

PNW added their 10th District Event: Shorewood 20-22 Mar / week 4

Re: Registration 2015
 

Just to play devil's advocate, the other issue that this could bring up is the length of the event. As it is, it's incredible that we fit in 12 matches a team for 40 teams in the time we do. If the 12 match guarantee was to continue, the more teams an event has, the longer the event will end up running.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Every team adds 2 matches to the event if each team has 12 matches (6 spots per match x 2). Crossroads Regional had 45 teams last year and ran 90 matches, or 12 per team. It's definitely doable.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Keep in mind the 2-day vs 3-day scheduling differences. A 2-day events, you lose a morning of qualification match time to practice matches.

Looking to Trade
 

Team 3021 The Agency has a locked in spot at San Jose, but we were wondering if anyone is willing to trade for a San Diego, Ventura, or Rancho Mirage spot, it would save us a lot of money and time if we could stay local. PM me if your team is interested in a trade.

Re: Looking to Trade
 

I don't think starting a black market in trading event slots is going to work out.
They aren't swappable.

If you drop an event it's the RD who chooses the next team from the waitlist as a replacement.
I suggest that you talk your idea over with them before you do anything rash, like drop an event you won't be able to get back in to.

Re: Registration 2015
 

What they could do is run practice matches later on load-in night and start Quals morning of Day 1...

Just a thought...

Yeah I would reach out to your RD and explain the situation, they might be able to talk with another competition director and work out something. But like Mark said, don't just drop out of your current regional in hopes to get into another "Full" one.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Not having done a district event before this upcoming season, I thought that's how it ran, with practice matches on load-in/inspection night.

Re: Registration 2015
 

They try to do practice on load in night but it depends if the field is setup. I know there were no practice matches at the Granite State and UNH districts but we had some at Northeastern near the end of the night. I heard other events had load in night practice but not sure which ones. Depending on when an event can get access to facilities, which for districts can be late in the afternoon on load in day, it can be close to impossible to get the field ready to run for load in practice.

The focus of load in night needs to be on the inspections. For early events where teams are going through the process for the first time of the year you'll be lucky if you get half of the teams inspected by the end of the night. At GSD and UNH a majority of the teams were inspected the following morning. Add in practice matches and the backlog of teams will increase.

Re: Registration 2015
 

No, in fact, many venues are just setting the field up on practice night or are installing and testing electronics.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Good discussion on practice match hours here. Submitted for Frank Answers Fridays but never answered.

Re: Registration 2015
 

MAR events do allow for some practice matches on the evening of day 0. But those are usually open (no practice schedule) and more focused on getting teams connected to the field for the first time. The teams who pass inspection early can take advantage of this time better than those who don't. Teams are usually encouraged to bring a much smaller crew on day 0, as well. The scheduled practice matches run the morning of day 1.

YMMV by district.

Re: Registration 2015
 

I have heard +100 teams with two fields as well, in Grand Rapids.

My guess is that it would be 128 teams (2x last year), then they can use the same system 2x. Not sure how the elimination rounds would work, maybe a two team Einstein type of championship style, the winners of both fields play.

Re: Registration 2015
 

FYI, DC & Pittsburgh got updated sometime over the weekend with teams several teams officially off of the waitlist. I suspect other events have been updated as well.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Hawaii and Las Vegas are now both showing open capacity of 5 and 4 respectively.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Yes, Hawaii has increased capacity.
They have been trying to do so for many years, and after tons of emails from our RD to raise it, they have finally listened.
In the past, we kept having to have teams register on the waitlist and have FIRST switch them over to registered. Our event was capable of having 40+ teams but never could understand why FIRST put a limit of 27 up until now.:confused:

-Glenn

Re: Registration 2015
 

can you provide a table or spreadsheet with those numbers please? and thanks

Re: Registration 2015
 

Here's the spreadsheet for that day's tally.

Re: Registration 2015
 

That was a useful spreadsheet also

but before I go do some excel work, do you have the table that made the graph,

basically

state, count

example

AK, 1
AL, 8
AR, 16

etc

I want to update a spreadsheet I did about 5 years ago and look at the deltas.

Thanks

Ed

Re: Registration 2015
 

See Sheet 3
I neglected to name it anything meaningful.

Re: Registration 2015
 

I thought to check the tabs but got distracted and forgot. I downloaded the file and when I open the file it gives an error saying the file may have missing data. at first glance it seems to all be there,,,, I don't know if the file upstairs is broken or what.

Ed

Re: Registration 2015
 

Here are just the totals for the chart in CSV comma delimited form.
I had to give it an extension of .txt to upload it here.

Also an .xlsx format for the whole thing to try.

Re: Registration 2015
 

normalizing the data against state population, teams per million population

Re: Registration 2015
 

Ed... this is eye-opening. Amazing numbers from Minnesota! Anyone from MN can share their perspectives on how they have managed to get FIRST into so many schools and communities?

Re: Registration 2015
 

It looks like the 5 years gains, just some sample data points

2009 2014
Michigan 132 350 teams
Minnesota 81 179
California 145 234
Georgia 28 61
New York 122 139
Texas 91 109

I remember in 2009 Michigan was almost desperate to get economic development done, and there was an aggressive push on all fronts..

I'm interested in seeing how this works out in a few years with economic development in that state.

It would be nice to start building charts for each state with plot lines for the following
____teams / million population
____STEM undergraduate degree production
____gross state economic output

There should be some interesting time delays between team startup and degree production. There should be some interesting way to normalize the economic data to make some sense.

I'm working on building models for correlating FIRST with degree production and economic output. This data is key for creating policy support for FIRST.

I need to go dig deeply in Michigan data on STEM degree production rates and technologist production rates. That could be golden information.


Ed

Re: Registration 2015
 

Check out this thread http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...=130789&page=2

There is a little bit of discussion there about how MN got to where it is. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Also to note: we have 600+ FLL teams and 107 FTC teams.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Here's the rate at which teams have been added to event lists (so far).

The big peaks are on mass opening, 2nd District opening, and 2nd Regional opening.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Mark,

Can you provide a table of how many teams are competing in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc events ?

It is what I'd call the breadth versus depth analysis.
hmmm, comparing districts and old fashioned regionals' is a little different in that regard.

Ed

Re: Registration 2015
 

You mean like this?

Event Week --- All -- District -- Regional
week 1 ------- 610 --- 265 ------ 345
week 2 ------- 464 --- 241 ------ 223
week 3 ------- 727 --- 252 ------ 475
week 4 ------- 768 --- 286 ------ 482
week 5 ------- 826 --- 294 ------ 532
week 6 ------- 666 --- 101 ------ 565
week 7 ---------- 0 ------ 0 ---------- 0
week 9 --------- 28 ----- 0 ---------- 0

Re: Registration 2015
 

Pretty sure he was looking for counts of teams participating in multiple events, not how many per week.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Oh, I see now.
I have that on a computer at home.
I'll post it when I get back around dinner time (ET).

Re: Registration 2015
 

No District Championship or World CMP included:

(3) 4 events
(52) 3 events
(1094) 2 events
(1705) 1 event

Re: Registration 2015
 

Are you able to pull out regional only teams? My school district is interested in knowing how many other teams do 2 regional events.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Total teams = 2854
Regional teams = 2014 (71%)
District teams = 840 (29%)


Regional teams only, no District teams:

• (37) 3 events
• (513) 2 Events
• (1464) 1 event

District Teams Only:

• (3) 4 events
• (15) 3 events
• (581) 2 events
• (241) 1 event (I assume mostly waitlisted)

Districts sending teams out to play at Regionals:

• (1) Indiana
• (1) New England
• (8) MAR
• (11) Michigan

Re: Registration 2015
 

that too is interesting data, but what I meant but didn't explain well is this,

all teams participate in 1 event
many teams are in 2 events
a bundle are in 3 events
only a few are in 4 events.


so how many is "all", "many", "a bundle" and "only a few"..........

in other words what is the 'play' distribution'

if you are in the district system, you get more 'play'

Re: Registration 2015
 

Well if you add up all his data:

All(1705)
Many(1094)
A Bundle(52)
A Few(3)

Re: Registration 2015
 

Or possibly he means:

• All = 2854
• Many (All-1705) = 1149
• Bundle (Many-1094) = 55
• Few (Bundle-52) = 3

Re: Registration 2015
 

Mark,

Do you have the current numbers of how many teams are in each of the district systems? It's interesting to me that MAR seems to have a much higher percentage of teams registered for outside regionals than the other four district systems (possibly even combined?).

(P.S. Thanks for providing all this data every year! :D)

EDIT:
After doing some quick calculations, it appears that 11 out of the 120 MAR teams are currently traveling to outside regionals in 2015, which is 9.17% of all MAR teams. Meanwhile, 8 of the 350(?) FiM teams are registered for outside regionals, or 2.29% of all FiM. Which that data, and the fact that there are only 1 NE FIRST team, 1 Indiana Team, and 0 PNW teams also attending outside regionals, it would appear that MAR has not only a greater percentage of teams competing at outside regionals than any other district system, but also a larger percentage than all of the other district systems combined.

EDIT 2:
Mark corrected me below, I switched up the amount of MAR and FiM teams traveling out-of-district for 2015. But the fact still stands, there are more MAR teams competing at outside regionals in 2015 than from all of the other district systems combined.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Interesting,,,,, thanks for the data

Re: Registration 2015
 

You transposed some numbers, but you're still right.

District - # teams - # outside events - % playing outside
FIM ------- 351 ------------- 11 --------------- 3.13%
MAR ------ 120 -------------- 8 ---------------- 6.67%
NE -------- 167 -------------- 1 ---------------- 0.60%
PNW ------ 149 -------------- 0 ---------------- 0.00%
IN ---------- 53 -------------- 1 ---------------- 1.89%


MAR - 6.67% vs everyone else - 5.62%

Re: Registration 2015
 

I would hazard a guess that it's due to the proximity of outside regionals to MAR and MAR teams vs. everywhere else.

PNW: Nearest regional event for PNW teams would be Utah, SVR, or Sacramento, all a full day's driving for the nearest PNW teams.
MI: Sure, you've got MN (Duluth x 2), Toronto (x 2), North Bay, Milwaukee, Midwest, and Queen City within a "reasonable" drive, depending where you are in the state. But those are all a bit of a drive, particularly westbound (MN, WI, Midwest), or across the border (the three Canadian events). Indiana has district events, if you can get in.
NE: You've got NYC, Long Island, and Tech Valley as possibilities, maybe Finger Lakes if you want to push it a bit. All are rather crowded events. Montreal is cross-border; anything beyond NY is getting into MAR territory and thus dependent on the goodwill of the good folks in MAR and their open spots.
IN: Could probably make Midwest or Queen City in about a day, not so sure about anything beyond that.
MAR: You only have NYC, Long Island, Tech Valley (north part of the area), Pittsburgh, DC, Virginia, and Chesapeake within a nice easy drive.

tl;dr: MAR just has more regionals handy. MI has IN districts (and vice versa) or crossing the border; NE has to contend with NY teams at their nearest events; PNW doesn't have much of anything anywhere near their boundaries.



Hey, Mark: Is anybody taking the plunge for the title of "First Cross-District Play" yet?

Re: Registration 2015
 

There are literally zero MAR teams at any of those events.

4 MAR teams are in South Florida
1 is in Orlando
1 is in Las Vegas
1 is in Montreal
And 1 is in Waterloo

All of these teams are traveling very far. Two are even leaving the country (and they are the closest ones!)

Re: Registration 2015
 

(Antonio stole my point in the previous post). Most would make the same assumption you did Eric, but after looking at the data, you see that the case is not so. Yes, there might be a larger number of regionals around MAR, but all of the MAR teams currently registered for outside regionals are traveling to much further competitions than the ones that you mentioned. The closest regional that a MAR team is going to is Canada (2 teams), followed by Nevada (1 team) and then Florida (5 teams). None of those are 'handy'.

Re: Registration 2015
 

You missed Windsor, which has more teams from Michigan within an hour drive than from Ontario.

Re: Registration 2015
 

That can't happen before Dec 11 at the earliest.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Both Queen City and Midwest are week 6 events, which is the same week as the IN State Championship. 234 is going to Buckeye, which is a week 5 event (no Indiana events that week)
Central Illinois is the only other "close" regional, and that's week 4, during our Purdue district event.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Inland Empire just admitted a slew (12) of teams today.
Scattered additions (and some subtractions) elsewhere brought the total of teams on event lists up by 30.

Re: Registration 2015
 

San Diego added 3.

Re: Registration 2015
 

Michigan now has details on the 18th district event. Week 1 in Standish. Been stable at 351 teams for a few weeks, so it seems as if FiM is done with adding events for the 2015 season now.

Re: Registration 2015
 

LVR opened up 6 more spots this morning...first come first serve!

Re: Registration 2015
 

Does anyone with inside information know when Arizona is going to pull teams from wait? For AZ West, they show 29 registered teams with 0 open.... but I can't believe that that's the final count.

Re: Registration 2015
 

1492 just got off the wait-list for Arizona West today (or yesterday, I didn't check). Like you said, 29 teams is unlikely to be the final team count. I imagine more teams will get off the wait-list at some point. But, I don't know that for a fact, contact the RD if you want an official response.