Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Oh, I didn't know that. That kind of blows my assumption out of the water.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

It's been a long time since we had any big terrain to drive over. Hump, bump ramp, whatever. I would love to see big humps like Breakaway or ramps like Aim High or Stack Attack or steps like FIRST Frenzy.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Yes! I've been wanting to have some kind of drive challenge these past two games. I want a robot that I can confidently say is all-terrain; these flat floors have pampered us too much.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

An 18" radius half cylinder on the floor of the field would be fun to get over. I'd love to see that.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Hmm. Now that we have mini-CIMs they may just ban CIMs. Both motors have the same footprint so we can keep our current investments in COTS gearboxes, yet the rule may address some of the power concerns (i.e. over-current draw) that have been brought up on these forums.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Could it just be a change in the bumper design standard (like 3 pool noodles so bumpers are taller, or something along those lines). A change like that could make sense due to the harder hitting drive trains, and the fact that the old bumper standards were set when you only had 4 cim drives.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Something like that would result in a much earlier notification than when build starts. You would have to deal with a choked supply line for a critical part and therefore a lot of really ticked off powerhouses and an innumerable number of teams simply out of luck for the season.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Unless FIRST has real dummies steering the boat (which they don't), they won't do something like ban CIMs.

It sounds like Frank is describing some sort of visionary change. Something truly DIFFERENT.

If you ban CIMs, and bring grandma to the event she won't notice a difference at all. Most students and mentors on most teams wouldn't notice a difference either.

Banning CIMs is the equivalent to the rude teenager who leaves his trash in the theatre because it "creates someone's job". It causes teams and COTs suppliers to scramble and jump through some hoops, but to no real net gain. Motors are just Torque-Speed combos (aka Mechanical power supplies) with varying levels of durability (head dissipation).

In industry changes such as a motor change (at least in the style described above) is generally trivial. I really, really want to believe the change we are warned about it something higher level and actually meaningful.

For reference to my mindset, the wheel change in 09 doesn't fall into the above category. It's closer to it than say the introduction of alliances in 1999, but it wasn't a purely arbitrary change to create more work for teams.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

How about something simpler such as no ability to opt out of the KOP drive base (if any). When registering for the kick-off event, past practice has allowed for opting out of the KOP drive base. That option does not currently exist for 2015.

Just a thought.....

Maybe the game requires NO drive base????????

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Kit base opt-out only started 2 (maybe 3?) years ago - making a bunch of teams that won't end up using the kit frame take a kit frame is a waste. I'm sure we probably have at least 1 kit frame somewhere in our sheds still.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

LOL. Check the new blog post: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...m-Opt-Out-2015

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

There hasn't been an announcement to buy pool noodles yet. Considering that they are already out of stores in most of the country, draw whatever conclusion that you like.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I conclude this year's KOP comes with a force field generator:D

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

So the blog says there will be wheels... I really cannot imagine no bumpers unless they do something to seriously limit robot interactions. So I would buy noodles on spec.

First has substantial dollars tied up in fields. Don't expect anything that will change the basic field. The carpet gets replaced for almost every regional so a different surface is a distinct possibility.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

My thought:

Attachment 17357

(I really hope Frank doesn't see this...)

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

So now we know a bit more:

Wheels (check!)
Tough Box Mini, therefore CIMs (check!)
Multiple possible configurations (check!)
Opt-out, therefore similar parts costs (check!)

We can't yet eliminate field elements like hills, steps or obstructions, but it would be pretty tough to make that kit bot climb, even with monster truck wheels. I reserve judgement on that.

I don't know that I have enough imagination to come up with a viable way to increase spectator-friendliness, keep low-level teams viable, and challenge high-level teams, while fundamentally changing the game. I'm sure the GDC is smarter than I am, though, so I look forward to seeing how they move this sport forward.

FWIW, last year's game was essentially hockey, heavily adapted to the point where it could be called "robot ball". I wish they could just rejigger last years game with the lessons that were learned and not come up with a totally new challenge; it had the most potential of any game I've been in to become a real sport, even though it had some near-fatal flaws.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

How does the toughtbox mini rule out replacing CIMs with MiniCIMs?

I think we watch very very different versions of hockey. :rolleyes:

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

No
No
No
No
No
No

Those are the two worst games I have ever participated in (also my last two as a student), if not for a favor I owed they would have caused me to quit FRC. I can not begin to describe my hatred of those games without using words not allowed on this forum

How awesome would it have been to see to robots stop, take off there bumpers, and wail on each other with pickup mechanisms.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I feel like you were watching a very different version of Aerial Assault than I was playing... Or just, welcome to New England.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

There's no reason at all this requirement would have to be made public though. AndyMark and Vex could be contacted directly and supply could be ensured. Keep in mind that Vex coordinated the production of the Mini-CIM and BAG in secret as well, only announcing the parts publicly at Kickoff when we read about the motors in the rules.

Honestly I'm thinking the change is some field obstacle you have to drive over. Haven't had a *required* obstacle since 2010, other than the fairly shallow 2012 ramps. The bump existed in 2012 but that was fairly optional.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Maybe I'm pushing it a little on hockey, but people compared Lunacy to ice hockey and I think this is closer to to the spirit of the game, with single game pieces, fast play, and assists. It had more in common with soccer, too, than Breakaway did.

Granted that CIMs aren't guaranteed but it will be a shocker to me if they are out entirely. It would be a nonsensical move and FIRST isn't stupid.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

tl;dr

Clearly we will be having 15 teams on an alliance. Yes the field will be larger, but every team will get 60 matches per event...:p

Oh, and we'll still have bumpers.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

So we are playing This but with robots. I am strangely ok with this

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

More like ! What if none of the major rules are changed what-so-ever, and Frank is just leading us astray with false hopes and prophecies?

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

What if qualifications are 6 team battle royale, and the only alliances are in elimination.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I thought the Chief Delphi community fought very hard for a long time to ensure qualification rounds were the same as elimination rounds... :eek:

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Why would anyone ever build that many overlords!?! :confused:

I can't decide if my favorite part of that picture is that they only have 56 supply or the secondary batch of overlords you can see in the top right of the minimap.

e; Or the random control group of 2 overlords. This picture keeps getting better and better the longer I stare at it.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Clearly to do a mass zergling drop. It's a hidden hint for a flying game.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I could see the weight limit going down. And I also wouldn't be shocked by an initial height limit under 60 in.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I wouldnt mind seeing an old 2007 rule possibly come back.

Your weight limit depends on your height.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Something not mentioned in Frank's blog post: autonomous timing. ;)

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

So... put an autonomous period after a teleop period? That would be interesting in a variety of ways.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

How about this crazy speculation: Nobody could decide on what wireless module should be used for the RoboRio, and to also mitigate any wifi concerns, we will now be going back to a tether format using ethernet.

:P What? No takers?

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I think he's implying a change/difference in the length of autonomous.


Though Auto being post-teleop could be interesting strategically; but terribly boring to watch and a safety risk.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

It could easily be exciting and not a safety risk.

It would add an interesting end game dynamic.

Almost any of the automodes in the last few years could have been done at the end of the match w/ some tweaks.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Except for matches where a many of the robots barely have an auto that moves forward. This is with the opinion that, for all intents and purposes, the endgame /end of the game should be one of the most exciting points of the game.

Safety being an issue is more of a game specific (ie. 2011/2007 arms being 'entangled')

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Would add to pre-match strategy too since you probably would have to have your robot situated properly to perform it's auto-function effectively.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Adding to autonomous period would result in painfully boring regionals and really exciting champs elims.

I think auto routines are something that would be great to see with bigger emphasis. When you tell people new to the sport kids are working with their teams to not only build these complex machines, but program them to run by themselves, you get a special kind of reaction.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

The end game autonomous could be optional.

It could also make use of 2011/2012/2013 style safe zones so that teams opting to not end in autonomous can't just bash you.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

That's a really good idea. Teams that don't want to run end-game auto can just stay in teleop. Teams that want the end game auto could for examples opt in to be switched into auto for the final 20 seconds and get a 2-3X bonus on points scored during that period. I think it would have that crazy end of match feeling that aerial assist had, with people nail-biting to the very end, wondering if the auto will work and get the clutch victory.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

No Bag and Tag.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

YES PLEASE! PLEASE! FIRST, if you are listening, TAKE THIS MAN'S ADVICE. Or at least put restrictions on practice bots.
But let's not turn this thread into that. We've been there done that.:deadhorse:

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Not to get sidetracked too much, but I would be very hesitant to suggest FIRST do anything of the sort-- it seems like any rules that FIRSt could make would run into several problems, namelf that they would be very difficult to enforce, they would be extending FIRST's reach outside of the competition proper (ie, build season and competitions), and they woudl probably lead to some more venom if people start accusing other teams and such... just a couple thoughts.

With regards to the build season being open or closed, I agree, it's already been discussed enough.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I like the idea of bringing back an old game, but one from way back in the day like the 90's.

My reasoning is that the technology has changed enough that whatever robot was the best then may not be today with the new motors, gearboxes, control system, etc. Older teams wouldn't have a huge advantage because old parts are no longer available, drill motors, for example. The game could be tweaked a bit to allow for 6 robots and autonomous but it would be interesting to see what teams would come up with.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I agree with the 'bring back the 90's' sentiment - it would be a (relatively) level* playing field compared to bringing back Aerial Assist. While certain long-established teams would have some amount of experience, no members and very few mentors would have been around for the original game.

*...though it seems like the actual field will be anything but level.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Well, most of the 90s games didn't have alliances... :rolleyes:

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Id love to see them revamp/refresh an earlier FIRST game for 3 team alliances and adding a challenge(s) to meet today's standards.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Might I add that in the blog post about the 2015 chassis, Frank mentions, "Our goal is to give you as much information as possible without revealing details about the game. For example, the limited ground clearance on last year’s KOP Drive System implied that the 2014 field would be relatively flat, while a drive base with significant ground clearance would imply some type of obstacle on the field that robots will likely have to traverse. If we revealed details such as ground clearance, we would be giving away too much of the game." In the provided cross-section image, it's visible that the through-holes for the wheels are quite a bit lower than the AM14U. I think this is a clear indicator that the chassis rides higher, and that there will be some terrain.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I also noticed that the file is labeled "AM14U2" (Last years was AM14u) not as one would expect "AM15"
Does anyone have a link to this same view from the AM14U?

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

The AM14U and the AM14U2 = AndyMark One for you and AndyMark One for you too.

AndyMark one five you doesn't work as well!!!!!!!!

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...em-Option-2014
Here's the post about the 2014 chassis, however there's no teaser diagram.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

You do realize the 2014 chassis was last year's news? You can buy one now from AndyMark. Drawings here. There is also a blog post about the 2015 chassis.:]

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

A few posts ago this was asked about.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Yeah I saw that after I posted. :] Anyway drawings are on the AndyMark website.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

All this hate for Regolith and minibots. I love'd to have another out of the box game.

My guess is that they change how they limit the size of the robots. All our off season drive trains are going out the window.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Hey, I actually liked the minibots!

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Aim High without the ramps; Rack 'N Roll tubes; Ramp bots; on Regolith.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Zone Zeal on regolith would be interesting.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Tetras and Mobile Goals.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

mini-bots that run mazes - we are gonna take a picture of the maze and transmit the pattern to the mini-bot!

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Flying Minibots.

(Quadcopters)

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

I doubt it--at least not footprint; they just made it legal to reuse bumper assemblies from year to year, and replaced a giant sliding tray thing they have to ship from regional to regional with a string inspectors can carry around in their pockets.

Height or weight I could see changing, but I'll be quite surprised if it's footprint.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Oh, but the footprint is so much easier to change now. All you need to do is change one number, and the string is now longer or shorter. And, if your bumpers were on the corners only, just carry 'em over and bolt 'em on the new corners (if the frame is the same shape overall).


Sometimes the best changes are the simplest.

Re: [FRC Blog] - NASA Grants and Something New for 2015
 

Should've gone farther and explicitly stated no bumpers.