Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

We're a Michigan team with about the same number of students (or slightly less), and we typically go to events that are 150 miles (Escanaba) and ~380 miles away (TC). (and last year, we got to add MSC [550 mi] and CMP [680 mi] to the mix) So it's doable, though we're near the extreme edge of travel distance in Michigan.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

We're traveling to Dallas and Lubbock from San Antonio for 2 of our 3 regionals this season.

It doesn't get much farther travel than that for potential district competitions which would be a minimum of 2 for the current price of a present-day regional if they follow the template rolled out in other states.

Although we're a Type-B team (see my earlier posts) we are rather well funded because we hustle for $$ each year and we operate with a shop donated with zero overhead.

3481 does not pay for students or mentors travel costs. In fact, if we had a $100k yearly budget I believe we still wouldn't pay for students or mentors. We do have to pay for 1 school chaperone's transportation and room but not their food. We spread that school person's cost over what the students pay. Mentors pay directly their expenses.

[EDITED]The reason for this approach, 3481's internal opinion only, is that paying for the travel costs of attending FRC competitions produces students and volunteer mentors who are truly interested and vested in the team. This may change starting next season, but probably not because then how do you chose which students and which mentors get their travel expenses covered and which do not?

Yes we have students here and there that have financial challenges so the senior team mentors get together and confidentially cover that student's costs.

We charge each student no more than $175.00 when traveling to Texas regionals and we make sure they bring $100.00 for Lunch and Dinner. We make sure we stay at inexpensive hotels that serve breakfast as part of the room cost. We put 4 students in a room. We rent CAPPS white vans. We leave Wednesday right after school from our shop but not before a nice buffet meal arranged by parents and traditionally this is trays of Panda Express--this way the first meal students have to buy is Thursday Lunch.

I believe this approach takes travel woes, at least for 3481, off the table other than how far are you willing to drive.

Hope this is helpful info...

--Michael Blake

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

I do not doubt that it's doable and I applaud your team for being able to fundraise that well :) .

What we are really saying (or at least what I am saying) is that the discussion should happen in such a way that teams have time to start working on how to shift to the district system in regards to their own funding/travel issues and restrictions. The reason being is that we all keep talking about 'rumors' and 'I have heard from someone who'. If Texas is planning the shift for the 2017 season (only put that year out there because several have said it needs to happen no later than that) I need to start planning now for changes in my funding structure, how we spend money, and team structure (to accommodate travel).

Michael:
I am not sure of your team structure in terms of school affiliation. My team is directly tied to my high school which for us changes the rules a little (remember each school district sets their own rules regarding certain things).

For instance, in order for the absence for competition to be excused we have to register it as student travel. Because we are a team recognized by our school this means we have to take yellow dogs or charter buses (charters we would have to pay for out of our budget) students are not allowed travel in personal vehicles. The yellow dog costs us $3.00/mile and the driver is $9.00/hr. The driver must be paid 24/7 for the time they are with us because that is considered 'on call' time in case of emergency. This is district policy and non-negotiable.

This is the first year we are not paying student meals and even that is being called into question by my district because we are required to pay for the bus driver's meals. As far as covering mentor's hotels we always saw it as our way of saying thank you to the people who dedicate significant amounts of time away from their families to help us succeed.

And while I know you did not intend the comment the way I initially read it (I in fact had to reread it twice to appropriately understand what you were trying to convey) please know that my students and mentors are equally invested in what we do. If we required students to pay for their own travel, meals, etc. I would lose probably 2/3 my team due to financial issues and those are the very students we are trying hardest to reach.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Correct. I didn't mean any offense by that... just stating how _we_ look at it on 3481... just sharing _our_ internal thoughts and approaches to see if that's helpful to other teams.

We are affiliated with Brandeis HS/Northside ISD and we don't have the kind of restrictions from the district you shared. Your restrictions certainly change the travel calculus BIG time--I learned something I didn't know, so thanks for sharing that info.

--Michael Blake

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

I'd be interested to know what the teams that have >$40k annual budgets do or don't do for their students and mentors on travel costs.

Maybe someone could weigh-in if they know?

>>I'll start it off... 3481 does not pay for students or mentors travel costs. One exception is the required school chaperone who's travel and room are paid for by the students. The district pays for the chaperone's meals.

--Michael Blake

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

3847 tries to split travel costs for both mentors and students.

In most cases we have students pay for their hotel rooms. This allows some students to pay for their own bed if they don't want to sleep 4 to a room. The schools/team normally pays for transportation.

The mentors don't pay for their hotel rooms but that's normally not a big expense as we usually only need two mentor/coach rooms, we share as mentors too. It's not like we are in the room for a long time on most trips anyway. We also have far fewer mentors than most teams.

Everyone always pays for their own food, mostly because the paperwork would be annoying if we paid for mentors/coaches food. I put enough of my own money into the team that dealing with the paper work to pay for food for me isn't worth my time. On occasion we'll have the team buy everyone's meal if it's pizza or something that the group is buying. We're pretty flexible.

For students who are struggling to meet costs we'll have the team pay for their hotel sometimes but this has been very rare. We can do some of these things because we are private schools and don't have as many students with finical hardships as other teams.

We also don't have any registration fees to be on the team, that way students can be on the team and not have to make an up front finical commitment, if they don't want to go on a trip or something they aren't paying for it unless they attend.

This clearly won't work for all teams but it's how we have been operating for the past 3 years with pretty good success.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

We do not pay for student travel or food (out of town) but everything for the Dallas Regional is covered. We try to pay for younger mentors travel costs but not food. We have money set aside for students who need a little help. The district pays for teacher travel. And when we travel to Nationals the district pays some (usually large) portion of the travel costs.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Michael,

No worries! :) Like you I am learning more myself and I do appreciate you sharing how your team is operating. It is giving me some fresh ideas of my own which we all need.

I know that many teams sponsor local workshops etc. for coaches but have not been able to personally attend one. What would be really nice is if FIRST in Texas could host a statewide webinar or conference for all the team coaches/mentors in which we could discuss the logistics of moving to a district model and UIL.

...Or maybe :D a forum on the FIRST in Texas website for us to voice concerns and ask questions. I think it might open all of our eyes to the work that has to be put in on the part of the volunteers and regional directors when planning a regional let alone planning multiple district events and a state championship. And maybe it would open their eyes to the potential issues many of our teams may face that they have not yet considered.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Why wouldn't you start planning for it now anyway? Teams will have less time to start working on the shift if they put it off until they hear official timing.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Well, at this point there is nothing from any official avenue (or at least any that I have seen) that Texas is moving to the district system. It is all speculation and rumors. We know there may be talks but no one has 'officially' acknowledged anything more than that (once again to my knowledge). Until there is official word some districts may not be willing to discuss the issue with their mentors/coaches.

Now, before you say that it is ridiculous that a district would behave that way I have vast evidence to the contrary on how the educational system in this state works; don't get me wrong, I love my state and teaching high school but we definitely have our flaws. For instance, six years ago we went through a major standards re-write that completely revamped all CTE (Career Technology Education) courses. Districts knew that the re-writes were actively happening and going to be implemented within a very short timeframe yet the majority did little to nothing to prepare for the changes. They took (and many of them still do) a, 'we'll cross that bridge when we come to it', attitude.

I understand what you are saying but (and maybe this is just my shortsightedness :o) it is difficult for me to plan for the future based on rumors of things that may or may not happen.

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Alright everyone, first off, I want to mention that these are my opinions on the situation. In no way is any of this anyone else's point of view but my own.

A little history about my years in FIRST: Started off on a rag-tag FRC team back in 2008 numbered 1817. This team, even though it's located wayyyy out in the middle of nowhere (West Texas) is still around today. I eventually made my way out to south Dallas (3730) and eventually a bit farther north of downtown Dallas (3005). Last year I moved up to North Carolina and am working with a team (2655) up here.

From what I gather (and heard), the financial stimulus provided by JCPenney and The Texas Workforce Commission was not allocated wisely throughout those years (2011 ~ 2013). Think of it like a contract created between a corporation and the government. An estimate is drawn up, money is allocated, and work begins. If the contractor finishes the job with money to spare, then the money should be returned to the government. This almost never happens, and usually leads to massive (generally unwise) spending near the end of the contract period. I'll leave translating the metaphor to you, but I'm sure you have an idea of what happened.

This had the effect of creating LOTS of teams that were well-funded (temporarily), but did not have the leadership to create a good robotics program. They were just started to boost numbers! All entry fees paid, free KoP, and some teams even received a travel stipend! I see lots of discussion about finances in this thread, but nobody mentions some other needs that teams have. Things like: knowledgeable mentors, corporate sponsors, school district/community support, parental support, etc.

Let's be honest here guys. Lots of teams started in Texas during those years did little more than build the kitbot frame. Go back and watch the Lubbock, Dallas, and San Antonio regionals. It's clear that the kids didn't get anything out of the experience, teachers were volunTOLD to run a robotics program, school administrations "lost" money provided to teams by the grant, there was no technical guidance to speak of, and both mentors and students became overwhelmed with the amount of work needed to keep the program alive. If you don't have technical leadership OR financial support OR mentor motivation, teams WILL NOT SURVIVE!

Allow me to pick on 1817 for a minute. They're out in the middle of nowhere, yet they're thriving. Why is that? The reason is that a very driven set of individuals laid out the groundwork for the team many years ago. Couple that with extensive support from the university/faculty, and you have a great robotics program! (Technical Leadership + Financial Support + Mentor Motivation!!!!)

Why are other programs winning out over FRC? Fact of the matter is that FRC is expensive in more ways than one. It takes time, dedication, skill, and money. If you start a team in a tiny town hundreds of miles away from any sort of metropolis, force the team to travel to an obligatory regional when 80%+ of the kids are using food vouchers for school lunches, and expect the kids to fund-raise when they have to go work out on the farm after class (I've mentored kids in this situation), you're crazy. I'm sorry, but any robotics program with requirements similar to FRC WILL FAIL!

This is why programs like VEX, GEAR, BEST, FLL, etc. are taking off. They're CHEAP (both financially and technically)! They don't require as much of a commitment or investment from teachers! It's not as intimidating! Kids don't have to participate in competitions to get something out of the program! A parent/teacher can run the entire thing out of their classroom/garage! You can get a team registered for an event, a single robot kit, and the playing field for VEX, GEAR, and FLL for well under $1000. If I recall correctly BEST also falls well under that $1000 cap, if they have to pay anything at all. Compare this to the ~$6k registration fee + $2k for the robot in FRC and it's easy to see why teams in rural areas are moving away.

None of this is a secret. Any "northern" model DOES NOT APPLY to Texas. The distances are too great, the cost of travel + lodging for three days sometimes doubles (or triples) the regional registration costs, rural communities in Texas are sparse and primarily agricultural-based, technical mentorship is extremely difficult to come by, and school districts are very reluctant to allocate resources (money, transportation, teachers, CLASSROOMS) due to restricted budgets and heavy sports influence. By no means is this a catch-all. There are lots of school districts, mentors, and companies that are willing to help out teams, BUT they tend to be located near areas of industry and development (Read: Cities). Now on top of it all you want to impose district competitions where it's unlikely, but possible that teams from (for example) El Paso may end up being forced to compete in Houston? Come on...

Let's play a game:

Try this: Without using any search tools, name 5 Texas teams that have qualified to attend champs in the past 5 years and are not located within roughly 30 miles of a city with a population greater than 150k. Tough, eh? Here's a list of cities to get you started. (I'm purposely leaving out instances like Woodlands vs Houston.) I can name two: 148 (Greenville is 40ish miles from Dallas) and 4063 (not counting Acuña, Del Rio's sister city in Mexico - Pop 145k)

Bonus round: Once again, without using any search tools, name 5 Texas teams that have qualified to attend champs in the past 10 years and are not located within 30ish miles of a corporate sponsor which provides technical knowledge (Boeing, NASA, L3, TI, TTU, etc) I can't name any.

I see some sort of correlation here, guys.

I applaud teams like TrixR4Kidz. They're definitely an outlier. I grew up in Eagle Pass, (40 miles from Del Rio, 15k residents, 120 miles from San Antonio, on the border with Mexico) and I hope that they continue to participate in future competitions given their proximity to other teams. I have no idea how they're doing it, but I'm willing to bet that a large part of their strategy is mentor and parent motivation.

TLDR: Don't treat Texas like Michigan. I can drive across your puny state in less time than it takes me to get from Lubbock to Dallas without traffic. You guys have it easy. Instead of trying to shoehorn FRC into schools, try starting FLL teams and build the FRC program from there. FRC teams are failing in Texas because of much more than money.

Maybe by the time those kids are in high school, we'll be able to mentor via the internet or something? I'd love to see a heat map of active teams in Texas.

P.S.

I have my theories... Some involving Houston being... Houston, and the regional being located on the other side of the state (10 hours from Lubbock, 11 hours from El Paso).

-Juan

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/41.7...2!2d47.1211331

(the rest of your post was fantastic)

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Thanks to many on this thread for sharing insights on Texas Robotics.
I'm still confused why FIRST has not cleared the waitlist for the Lone Star Regional ... hopefully it happens in the next few days.

Growth with Texas Robotics is still moving, but in different directions than other states.

FTC in Texas :
81 teams in 2009 season
364 teams in 2014-2015 season

VEX (VRC) in Texas:
106 teams in 2009-2010 season
519 teams in 2014-2015 Season

FRC in Texas:
91 teams in 2009 season
137 teams in 2015 Season

VEXiq in its 2nd year is around 100 teams in Texas.
FLL is so big that I can't find numbers for it ! :eek:

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Where are you getting your numbers? I would love to look at growth trends from 2008 - 2010 and 2011 vs 2015. One would expect a large change around the 2011 stimulus and an abrupt loss in teams after the TWC money dried up.

The numbers you're showing seem to support my argument above. :rolleyes:

Instead of asking why FRC team numbers are decreasing, let's ask: What should team numbers be like if we didn't have the stimulus "bubble"?

Re: Texas Registration 2015
 

Talk to the Lone Star Regional planning committee if you want to know. The responsibiilty for waitlists shouldn't be placed on the generic big FIRST organization. So far as I know, each Regional waitlist belongs to the group running that Regional.