FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Hi all,

Sorry if the topic of this post is something that has been brought up before. It's just been weighing heavily on my mind and I'd like to get some input on it.

I was a member of FRC Team 316 for all four years of high school. I spent my junior and senior years as team captain, and really got into it. I learned so much through my time in FIRST; it was the most fun I've ever had, and it made a huge impact on my life.

I've been at Grove City College for two months now, studying electrical engineering. It's been great so far, but as time goes on I'm realizing more and more how much I miss FRC. I looked into a few engineering groups we have on campus. We have a Baja SAE team as well as an ASME Human Powered Vehicle Challenge team, but both of these are more geared towards mechanical engineering students. Unfortunately we don't seem to have any equivalent programs for electrical engineers (apart from independent research and senior capstone projects), so I've been looking around to try and find a college level robotics competition. I was surprised that there doesn't seem to be much out there. I know FIRST piloted the CARD program back in 2011, but I can't find any information on it more current than 2013.

I'm still connected to my old team, but since my school is 6 1/2 hours away from home I'm limited in my involvement. The nearest FRC team is about 1/2 hour away, but I don't have a car so mentoring isn't really an option. I plan to volunteer when I can, but I still miss the level of involvement that I used to have. One step I would like to take is forming a FIRST Alumni association on campus, as I know we have a decent number of alums here.

I know classes will get more difficult, and more opportunities will come with time, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to do more now. Am I just being impatient? Are there any good programs like FRC for the college level that I should look into? Am I just looking in the wrong places? Is CARD even still a thing? College is a time for branching out, trying new things and growing as a person. I've gotten involved with some non-engineering organizations as a change of pace, but I still want something to fill the void that FRC left in my life. I'll probably speak to my academic adviser about this, but I wanted to see what the CD community thought as I'm sure I'm not the first one to struggle with this.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Part of the difference between FIRST and any college programs is that FIRST's goal is to get people involved in STEM, whereas all college programs that I've seen assume that by the time you are in college, you are either STEM or not. I've heard that the solar car competition (http://americansolarchallenge.org/) is much like FIRST in terms of the type of work and teams.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

The most FIRST-like competition open to college/university students is Vex.
http://www.robotevents.com/robot-com...ge-competition

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

At my college a couple friends and I started a BattleBots team. There is a college-specific BattleBots league (as well as the regular league) that has a couple competitions across the country. It isn't the same as FRC, but it's pretty darn close.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

If your up for the challenge, AUVSI puts out a good variety of autonomous competitions. From autonomous land to air, there is pretty much a competition for whatever you are interested in. They are quite a bit more difficult than FIRST as university level should be but if you are willing to put in the work, it is definitely worth competing. Here is a list of a lot of the popular competitions:

http://www.robonation.org/competitions

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I am doing formula SAE. Though it's not robotics, it is similar in the sense that you have to make a car and program sensors and optimize things. And I go and cost visit my old team whenever I can

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I was in your exact position when I arrived at North Dakota State University. I missed FIRST and needed something to fill the void it left. None of the collegiate engineering challenges offered by NDSU seem to satisfy said void. I think my favorite part about FIRST was that it offered a completely new challenge every year. With each new challenge came a new opportunity to be creative on a large scale (meaning robot's are dramatically different from year to year). With programs like SAE and others, the challenge is similar if not the same year in and year out. The ability to be creative on a large scale diminishes (especially as an incoming freshman working amongst a group of people who have been working on the project for years). Since no clubs existed that satisfied me, I decided to form a new club.

Essentially this new club consists of 2 different parts. A FIRST related part and an engineering challenge part. The FIRST related part includes volunteering at local regionals/districts (since all clubs at NDSU require a certain number of volunteer hours from members, it works out well), creating demonstrations of certain mechanical and electrical functions, making presentations to teams and high schools in the area about how these functions work. If things go the right way then our club will also be attempting to build a robot in 3 days for demonstration purposes. The engineering challenge part of our club essentially offers a think-tank like group to assist people on their senior projects. This part of our group also takes on ideas from people and tries to make them a reality. For example a member of our club thought it would be cool to build a quadcopter with an infrared sensor on it. This quadcopter could be used by farmers to check on their cattle to see if they are ready to calf.

The great thing about this club concept for me is that it allows an individual to stay connected to FIRST while still growing their knowledge and taking on real-world problems at the same time. If anybody want to know more about my club or needs tips on how to start one themselves PM me.

Maybe starting a club in the mold of this one will substitute your want for FIRST?

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I've done a few different robotics competitions in college (AUVSI, IEEE, MicroMouse, Robocup) and nothing comes close to FIRST except for VEX-U.

VEX-U is more competitive internationally than in the USA. Which is quite odd for a competition started in the USA.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Surprised no one has brought up Design Build Fly yet! I was on DBF for a couple years in college when not involved in FIRST mentoring.
DBF is a university-level competition to design an RC aircraft to accomplish specific objectives. It has a pretty regulated set of requirements (like FIRST).

http://www.aiaadbf.org/

Also, consider the Intercollegiate Rocket Engineering Competition, sponsored by ESRA. Some teams use this competition to design a rocket capable of reaching 100k+ feet http://www.soundingrocket.org/

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/educatio...y/nasarmc.html

A lot of teams in this one like to use older FRC hardware, and the size has been similar. The basic game is the same year-to-year, but the exact requirements vary to change things up. Better keep your electronics sealed, though...

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Was going to mention the same competition. It's certainly very FRC-similar, closest I've seen of any college activity. However, it's different enough to let you apply FRC knowledge, but still be really interesting. UM's team has 4 FRC alumni, and I don't think it's a coincidence. Personally, I think the competition would get a bit boring after a team's 3rd or 4th year, as the design changes less and less. For now, I'm on a "rookie team," so we're going through some struggles (really similar to FRC rookies, honestly).

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I wouldn't know about that--'long about year 3 or 4 for my team, the rules changed to the point where our previous design(s), which were very similar to each other (and I think built from each other), had to be thrown out due to some silly little change in maximum mass, or was it maximum starting volume. Incidentally, that was two years (3 competition cycles) ago, with the competition mining LUNAR simulant instead of MARTIAN simulant. The characteristics of each are rather different.

Just some nasty little minor tweaks can really shred established designs. Watching the reaction to SAE Aero Design eliminating carbon fiber and similar materials from their Regular Class was quite entertaining, even as a competitor. Just one minor little change to the rules, that was it for rule changes for that class for that year. One minor little change...;) (OK, until the competition committee realized that they'd forgotten to make an exception for COTS props and engine mounts.)

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Like I said, I'm on a rookie team, so I'm speaking from intuition and prediction. I'd bet you're right. Either way, I think you'd agree there probably isn't a more similar college program to FRC.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

The University of Minnesota has it's own Robotics team http://www.mngofirst.org/ as well as offering a team in the Solar Powered Vehicle challenge https://www.facebook.com/umnsvp.

UW Stout Polytechnic has been very successful in the Purdue Rube Goldberg challenge http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rubegoldberg/.

I am certain that there are others - but in terms of the organization that FRC has - no, not anything yet.

So light the fire in your own college/university!

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I feel like I have to jump in now because GOFIRST was mentioned :)

GOFIRST currently competes in several competitions, including IGVC (Independent Ground Vehicle Competition) and the Autonomous Snowplow competition. In the past we've also competed in CARD (Collegiate Aerial Robotics Demonstration) and an underwater robotics competition. Every year we explore new competitions or projects to compete in or build during that school year.

However, building a robot is really only half of a "FIRST experience" as many would say-- we also mentor many area teams and volunteer at local FIRST competitions at all levels, as well as hosting several offseason events to help teach teams about both basic and advanced/developing robotics knowledge.

GOFIRST also has a group at Dunwoody College of Technology and is in talks to form groups at a few other Midwestern universities.

If you're just interested in building cool things, there are plenty of engineering competitions out there that have been mentioned in this thread. If you're interested in also doing things on the outreach/ "Broader FIRST" side of things, starting or joining a FIRST support organization, mentoring a team, or volunteering at events are all options. Do try to keep in mind that there's a much broader aspect of life than just FIRST-- get involved with other student organizations and activities.

If you (or anyone reading this) are interested in starting a FIRST support organization like GOFIRST or PurdueFIRST, send me a PM and I can get you in contact with our president and help with any questions you might have.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, hosts a robotics competition in region 5. I am not sure about the other regions.....This year it is an autonomous maze solving robot. It is much more.....programming intensive, for lack of a better word, than most of FRC in my opinion. No external sensors are allowed. You are free to design your robot however you'd like, but it really comes down to how good of an algorithm you write analyse the maze and solve it.

Link for info

Some other things that colleges have, that others mentioned, are design teams. I don't know much about them, but I know there is a solar car competition, human-powered vehicle, and Mars Rover.

If you don't find anything that you find interesting, look into getting into research/working at a lab at for university.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

You may also want to check out the University Rover Challenge.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I second the IEEE suggestion since you are studying electrical engineering. Here in region 3 (southeastern US), we have a college robotics contest at our regional conference. Consider joining the IEEE and then if there is a competition in your region, lobby to start one. Ours is nowhere near as elaborate as first, but it is good. Along with the robotics competition, we also have other competitions such as programming, ethics, website, t-shirt, etc.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Can you link to information for this please? I am really having a tough time envisioning what an ethics competition would be like, so I am curious to learn more about this.

EDIT: Just found the page on the IEEE website: http://r5conferences.org/ethics-competition/

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I attended three different IEEE Region 5 robotics events back from 2004-2007.

The game rules and competition were typically created by each host university of the event. A new game designer every year meant that the game rules would wildly vary from year to year. Like many other early stage robotics competitions, complications in rules and complex field setup made the competition frustrating at times.
Hopefully that has changed in more recent IEEE competitions.

VEX has both progressed way beyond the typical pitfalls of game design. Some would argue that VEX games have progressed way beyond FRC game designs.... (but let's save that topic for another thread)

If you are considering a competition in college, I still highly recommend VEX-U.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

If you want to get a job working on robot electro/mechanical cars at Tesla or Google the World Solar Challenge and its counterpart The North American Solar Challenge is the place to be.

I raced across Australia with Calsol in '11 and it was awesome. It's like FIRST meets the highway. :]

Although the cars aren't technically robots, all of the best ones use many sensors, onboard processors and telecommunication.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Perhaps you may be missing the point here? Ultimately it's not actually about the game as such and in reality becoming involved with IEEE members will far outweigh any and all benefits of playing a "better" game. Suspect you'll be in the minority claiming VEX games have progressed beyond FRC, or FTC for that matter so perhaps it's best just to say they are different. VEX-U is a hack of VRC and playing in an alliance where you supply both robots is rather odd. Apparently you can bring as many robots along as you like then pick 2 for a match.

VEX-U is great for students who didn't do any form of robotics program before college because it's mostly a pre-fabricated construction set so beginners can handle it. Oh sure you can 3D print an object of some limited dimensions but it's nothing like a real engineering challenge.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Highly recommended:

Formula SAE - Design and engineering competition, to build an open-wheel performance race car, in every sense. Everything *must* be optimized, it takes the whole year or more to design and build the vehicle. Vehicle design must balance 'ideal' vehicle dynamics characteristics with stiffness, weight, power, and packaging, with a mix of steel space-frame and carbon fiber monocoque chassis designs and 4-stroke motorbike engines. Rather insane power/weight ratios (e.g. 0.37 kw/kg is not unusual).

http://students.sae.org/cds/formulaseries/about.htm

Baja SAE - Off-roading competition, focused on balancing performance with durability. Heavy durability aspect, the over 80% of the vehicles will not finish the endurance, many completely roll over, and all return entirely covered in mud.

http://students.sae.org/cds/bajasae/about.htm

If you're at a school cold enough to get a lot of snow, you might have Clean Snowmobile Challenge. This is primarily a powertrain development competition. The goals here are noise, fuel economy, and emissions. IMHO, the snowmobile competition is the most personal, also the longest, at 6 days, but with only about 18 teams total there's a lot of time to talk to sponsors and event organizers directly.
http://students.sae.org/cds/snowmobile/about.htm


For anyone who says they need a totally new challenge every year, I am currently several months into designing and testing a completely new powertrain package, re-writing all of the control strategy for a newer, faster controller (80mhz PowerPC, now with 64K RAM, less than half the weight, higher timing accuracy), and working with the rules committee to allow electronic throttle control in a sane way. Last year, our (almost entirely new) team switched to a different wheel size and tire compound and completely re-designed the chassis and suspension concept. There aren't rules changes to drive innovation, but complete concept changes and improvements driven by what competitors have done, continually 'raising the bar'.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

Thank you all for the program suggestions! There are a lot of great ideas here I will have to look into.

We do have an IEEE student branch on campus, of which I am a member. I was told it's not super active, but maybe we could look into one of the IEEE competitions.

apalrd, we do have a Baja SAE team here. I looked into it at the beginning of the semester, but it seemed to be focused almost entirely on mechanical engineering. It did seem like a great program, though, so I might give it another chance.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

A debate on a forum usually ends in flames.
In this case , Our difference in viewpoints will actually help uncover the subtle details in game design.

My viewpoint is from direct experience in participating in both competitions (IEEE Region V & VEX-U).

Different is not a suitable description for comparing game designs.

Comparing the difference between FRC , VEX or FTC games is quite complex.
Some game designs have progressed tremendously over previous game designs. Game progression is important because if we played games designed 10 years ago, the community would have a difficult time growing STEM activities.

I'll stand by my original statement , VEX has progressed beyond FRC game design in many aspects. Let's start a thread on what defines great game design to help clarify this discussion.

More people should think more about what defines a better game because in the end you will dedicate a huge amount of time to understanding a particular game design.

Designing a game based around a KOP creates a balanced competition.
This allows teams with small budgets to compete fairly with large budget/resource teams.

Most of the other college competitions are dominated by large resource universities.

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

This is a pretty large and bold claim. Have you ever competed in VEXU? How familiar are you with the game year to year? Do you know how the rules for VEXU works? I find it incredibly hard to believe that you're familiar with the competition and think it's "nothing like a real engineering challenge."

Some of the most innovative and efficient designs I've seen produced have come from VEXU. VEXU isn't confined to just the VEX parts like the HS, MS, etc. are, they have plastic parts they can machine (6x6x1 volume total), custom sheet metal (12x12), 2 small 3-D printed parts, 2 large 3-D printed parts, any kind of sensor you want (does not have to be sold by VEX), additional off-board processing, etc. In some ways it makes the student be more creative and innovative with their designs because they are somewhat limited, they can't jsut fabricated everything to be exactly what they need. That in mind, it looks as though these restrictions may lessen in the future.

Another large benefit to VEXU is that in addition to what the college students can learn (and trust me, even students that have done robotics previously can learn a lot), you can help inspire, educate, and mentor high school and middle school teams in the process because VEXU is so similar to the normal VEX competition.

I think before you make such large assumptions about a program you may want to get more familiar with it, participate in it, or at least talk to someone has been through the experience.

-Nick

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I did FSAE in college. If you (OP) don't think there's a spot for EEs on an FSAE (or other automotive team) you're dead wrong. On our 2009 car we had a completely custom power distribution board designed and populated by one or two students. Think FRC PD board, but considerably more sophisticated: it had various power control relays, fuses, and a few CAN-bus controlled features. We also had a 100% custom CAN-bus dashboard that had a configurable F1-style tach light, configurable sensor readouts, a display screen, and other CAN-bus driven features. We attempted, but didn't implement, closed-loop traction control, which is simply chock full of EE elements. This is just scratching the surface of what EE-related things are possible in an SAE program.

A big benefit of any SAE program is that your research and experiments can be publishable and you get authorship as an undergraduate in a straight-forward manor.

I have been told by certain member(s) on CD that they 'don't respect FSAE.' Don't be fooled into thinking that because the design space is heavily worked-over that there isn't room for innovation or that there isn't challenging work to do. Furthermore, if you thought you worked hard on FRC during build season, brace yourself for a whole order of magnitude larger effort to get an FSAE or BajaSAE car ready!

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

To any college student looking for ways to get involved either in solving STEM problems/puzzles, or get involved in STEM inspiration; I would suggest simply contacting the dean of your college. If they can't offer you at least a half dozen suggestions, I'll owe you a Mountain Dew.

To any college student who feels that being challenged to solve a problem using a well-defined collection of parts is unworthy of being called an engineering challenge, I suggest:
a) Letting the world's chess players know that chess tournaments aren't real competitions/challenges, and
b) Telling the NASA folks who devised the CO2 scrubber changes that saved the Apollo 13 astronauts, that they weren't doing true engineering (I recommend staying out of arms reach when doing this ;)).

"a" and "b" above both involve fixed sets of equipment that must be either used better than an opponent uses them, and/or to overcome a challenge posed by the universe. If we don't quibble over the little stuff, I think both shine a useful light on what is or is not "a real engineering challenge".

College is a good time to learn to see with new eyes ...

Blake

Re: FIRST-like Programs at the College Level
 

I'm on the FSAE team and the chief engineer on the CSC team, as an EE.

On the FSAE team, I led a project where we wrote all of the engine code on top of a rapid prototype controller platform, we later refined it a lot with the CSC team and ended up with a full-authority electronic throttle engine controller.

We have also developed both a fuse box and a steering wheel.

In fact, we have only 5 EE/CE's now and we need more.