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-   -   80/20 as a storage chamber? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131056)

MrBasse 06-11-2014 16:15

80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
I was reading up on some 80/20 information and found this.

Has anyone ever used 80/20 as a pressure tank/manifold in FRC? We've never used 80/20 before due to cost and weight, but I found some uses and this idea intrigues me a little. Maximum pressure is at FRC requirements for past years, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be allowed.

cgmv123 06-11-2014 16:19

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
We've talked about this as well. It's worth asking on Q&A, but the 80/20 profiles you need to use it as an air tank are too heavy to be practical. Also, the rule against cutting or modifying pneumatic components comes into play.

Jon Stratis 06-11-2014 16:33

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Assuming the specific model # you buy has a data sheet that lists gas pressure rating, there are two concerns I would have.

FIRST, modification. Did you cut the 80/20 to length?. If so, it's been modified and per the 2014 rules not a legal pneumatic component. If, on the other hand, you can purchase the exact length you need, that may not come into play. I would also look very carefully at how stuff may have been mounted to the 80/20, that could be another source of modification making it illegal as a pneumatic component.

Second, Safety. Like with all pneumatic storage tanks, I'm going to look at the likelihood of it getting hit, bent, or broken. Most tanks can be placed in a relatively protected area... Using 80/20 as both storage and your robot frame would raise a lot of concerns about the damage that could occur when you get hit on the field. From the standpoint of keeping a team running the whole weekend, having a single hard hit to the frame crack or dislodge something and cause you to lose air pressure with what could be a very lengthy fix is highly concerning. And while aluminum doesn't have the same failure mode as some of the plastic tanks we've seen explode, I would be concerned about explosive decompression in an area that is likely very near motors, electronics, and wiring that could all easily be shorted or damaged in such a situation.

FrankJ 06-11-2014 16:35

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
I think it would give certain robot inspectors a conniption. :]. You would have to convince them that the assembly is a COTs device. (2014 R75). Strongly suspect there will be a similar 2015 rule.

80/20 gives a large discount to First teams. Be sure to ask for it when talking to your distributor.

protoserge 06-11-2014 16:55

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
I can think of reasoning for not allowing it as a load-bearing chassis or manipulator component, but I've seen plenty of poorly-located pneumatic reservoirs before.

I could see this being a recipe for disaster in that poor metal shavings management could yield a lot of internal damage to downstream components if proper care is not taken when installing.

I still don't know if it offers advantages over using the tried and true Pneuaire tanks, though.

Billfred 06-11-2014 19:55

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
This was over a decade ago, but I recall reading about one team that used frame members as vacuum accumulators in 2004. Back then pneumatics rules were infinitely more restrictive than today, but vacuum was more or less unregulated. So they carefully sealed up a couple frame members (this was pre-kitbot, so beefier drives were common--heck, the "kit frame" was 2"x4" box aluminum), tapped the fittings, and went to town using that pressure (or lack thereof) instead.

No relevance to here--I think you're more or less hosed--but I dig the historical parallel. :)

Jake177 07-11-2014 11:25

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1407699)
This was over a decade ago, but I recall reading about one team that used frame members as vacuum accumulators in 2004.

That was us (unless someone else was crazy enough to try it too).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=17

Andrew Schreiber 07-11-2014 11:30

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 1407699)
This was over a decade ago, but I recall reading about one team that used frame members as vacuum accumulators in 2004. Back then pneumatics rules were infinitely more restrictive than today, but vacuum was more or less unregulated. So they carefully sealed up a couple frame members (this was pre-kitbot, so beefier drives were common--heck, the "kit frame" was 2"x4" box aluminum), tapped the fittings, and went to town using that pressure (or lack thereof) instead.

No relevance to here--I think you're more or less hosed--but I dig the historical parallel. :)

On the topic of other silly accumulators: I believe it was T3 that used large amounts of pneumatic tubing (coiled) as an additional accumulator.


And I mean RIDICULOUSLY large amounts...

cgmv123 07-11-2014 14:18

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1407782)
On the topic of other silly accumulators: I believe it was T3 that used large amounts of pneumatic tubing (coiled) as an additional accumulator.


And I mean RIDICULOUSLY large amounts...

I heard this was because there was a limit on tanks that year, but no limit on tubing. :ahh:

Andrew Schreiber 07-11-2014 14:33

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1407800)
I heard this was because there was a limit on tanks that year, but no limit on tubing. :ahh:

Correct.

protoserge 07-11-2014 17:00

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Never underestimate the creative genius of FIRST participants :D

philso 07-11-2014 21:26

Re: 80/20 as a storage chamber?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1407782)
On the topic of other silly accumulators: I believe it was T3 that used large amounts of pneumatic tubing (coiled) as an additional accumulator.


And I mean RIDICULOUSLY large amounts...

Our ingenious friends at Spectrum (3847) had a clever way of doing this that was very elegant and neat.


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