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BJT 15-11-2014 00:53

pic: new shoes
 

75vs1885 15-11-2014 00:55

Re: pic: new shoes
 
on the original wheel , did you only rivet once? When we try the rivets are not reliable. We know why, but have a difficult time mastering riveting!!

who716 15-11-2014 00:59

Re: pic: new shoes
 
we took our andymark 6 in wheels on concrete for a day of presentations and by the end of the day brand new wheels were completely flat like yours

BJT 15-11-2014 01:00

Re: pic: new shoes
 
yes, we use plenty of rivets. never had any problems.

BJT 15-11-2014 01:02

Re: pic: new shoes
 
It was a parade that flattened these.

snoman 15-11-2014 10:05

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 75vs1885 (Post 1408687)
on the original wheel , did you only rivet once? When we try the rivets are not reliable. We know why, but have a difficult time mastering riveting!!

if you are not using a pneumatic rivet gun i suggest that you get one. they seem to tighten it up a lot more 70 or 80 bucks good investment use steel rivets to

Chris is me 15-11-2014 13:22

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 75vs1885 (Post 1408687)
on the original wheel , did you only rivet once? When we try the rivets are not reliable. We know why, but have a difficult time mastering riveting!!

Large head rivets work really well for securing tread. Otherwise, just be sure you're putting rivets in the "dip" of the tread as much as you can and use all of them. Going to steel isn't really much help and it just makes changing tread a ton harder. You just need the rivets to last as long as the tread.

Chadfrom308 15-11-2014 14:50

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 75vs1885 (Post 1408687)
on the original wheel , did you only rivet once? When we try the rivets are not reliable. We know why, but have a difficult time mastering riveting!!

We used a little bit of glue too. Ours were on there pretty tight. Steel rivets helps as opposed to aluminium. We had an all aluminum rivet robot last year and we ended up popping the rivets left and right (especially in high impact/stress areas)(at least the rivets broke and not the frame itself).

75vs1885 15-11-2014 22:10

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by snoman (Post 1408703)
if you are not using a pneumatic rivet gun i suggest that you get one. they seem to tighten it up a lot more 70 or 80 bucks good investment use steel rivets to

I guess its a double whammy for me, lol, we use a hand rivet gun and aluminum rivets!!
We have a pneumatic rivet gun and i tried using it today but I need to practice.

BJT 16-11-2014 00:52

Re: pic: new shoes
 
we use a pneumatic rivet gun now, but have also had success with a good hand riveter. we drill through the tread and the wheel in one of the "dips" in the tread. when we rivet it by hand, I push down on the head of the gun real hard and a student runs the handle. If they get in good and tight aluminum rivets will work fine.

sanddrag 16-11-2014 01:16

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Once you get a pneumatic rivet puller, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. It's hands down our best tool under $100.

R.C. 16-11-2014 02:00

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1408777)
Once you get a pneumatic rivet puller, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. It's hands down our best tool under $100.

Under $50 actually. By far one of my favorite tools to have around the shop.

Oblarg 16-11-2014 11:09

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1408777)
Once you get a pneumatic rivet puller, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. It's hands down our best tool under $100.

When you factor in the cost of a compressor, it's not inexpensive. Unfortunately, neither of the teams I mentor has a compressed air line in their workspace.

A good hand riveter (all-metal construction with suitably long handles) works fine, in my experience.

AdamHeard 16-11-2014 12:20

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1408793)
When you factor in the cost of a compressor, it's not inexpensive. Unfortunately, neither of the teams I mentor has a compressed air line in their workspace.

A good hand riveter (all-metal construction with suitably long handles) works fine, in my experience.

If a team is doing rivets in any meaningful qty, spending a few hundred bucks for a nice riveter and small compressor is well worth it.

Abhishek R 16-11-2014 12:27

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1408799)
If a team is doing rivets in any meaningful qty, spending a few hundred bucks for a nice riveter and small compressor is well worth it.

We had our first experience with an air-powered riveter this past year. Especially after doing the entire prototype robot by hand, I couldn't believe how we had survived without that tool. Made things go by faster and without less stress on a few select students ^^

Oblarg 16-11-2014 12:46

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1408799)
If a team is doing rivets in any meaningful qty, spending a few hundred bucks for a nice riveter and small compressor is well worth it.

I think it depends on what you mean by "meaningful quantity." If you're putting together a tube-and-gusset chassis, it's not all that difficult to do your riveting by hand. It's still faster than bolting the assembly together.

If you're doing sheet metal, I can see how it would be a real pain to have to do all your rivets manually.

AdamHeard 16-11-2014 12:49

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1408802)
I think it depends on what you mean by "meaningful quantity." If you're putting together a tube-and-gusset chassis, it's not all that difficult to do your riveting by hand. It's still faster than bolting the assembly together.

If you're doing sheet metal, I can see how it would be a real pain to have to do all your rivets manually.

We do tube and gusset for pretty much every system. We did't have a pneumatic riveter until 2011, and did hand until then.

It's certainly meaningful quantity, and it's certainly worth it. The time saved is huge.

I like to think of labor in terms of minimum wage. If the cost of a tool saves enough labor that it's "making" more than minimum wage, it's worth it (as our kids make well above minimum wage when they're out fundraising). The flipside is true too... any fabrication we do that "saves" less than minimum wage is a bad decision, and should be a COTS item.

Too many teams work themselves for below minimum wage.

Oblarg 16-11-2014 12:58

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1408803)
We do tube and gusset for pretty much every system. We did't have a pneumatic riveter until 2011, and did hand until then.

It's certainly meaningful quantity, and it's certainly worth it. The time saved is huge.

I like to think of labor in terms of minimum wage. If the cost of a tool saves enough labor that it's "making" more than minimum wage, it's worth it (as our kids make well above minimum wage when they're out fundraising). The flipside is true too... any fabrication we do that "saves" less than minimum wage is a bad decision, and should be a COTS item.

Too many teams work themselves for below minimum wage.

Unfortunately, the reality for many teams is that time spent is not some limitlessly fungible resource where any time saved in manufacturing can be converted to money through fundraising efforts.

AdamHeard 16-11-2014 13:07

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1408805)
Unfortunately, the reality for many teams is that time spent is not some limitlessly fungible resource where any time saved in manufacturing can be converted to money through fundraising efforts.

Is there a law/rule against fundraising for you locally?

Oblarg 16-11-2014 13:17

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1408806)
Is there a law/rule against fundraising for you locally?

No, but there are practical considerations in how much time we can realistically motivate our students to spend on fundraising, how much money that fundraising will actually bring in, and when it is feasible to do fundraising activities (time saved during our twice-weekly preseason meetings is not equivalent to time spent at events outside of those meetings).

If we save some amount of time on our preseason drive chassis (say, an hour or two) by having a pneumatic riveter, there is really no feasible way we can readily turn that hour or two into money given the constraints of our team structure.

There are a lot of assumptions implicit in the utility calculation you've outlined. Those assumptions are valid in some contexts, but certainly not universally.

Chris is me 16-11-2014 13:21

Re: pic: new shoes
 
We bought the Harbor Freight riveter right before our 2014 season to save us time and energy... and broke it almost immediately. We ended up just getting another hand riveter and using two of those. Ate up a LOT of time in build season though - with the amount of rivets in the claw we probably consumed more than 1 build meeting total in extra time wasted.

That said, hand riveters get the job done just fine. With practice we could do things like change claw parts (drilling out at least 12-16 rivets and replacing them) in just a few minutes.

75vs1885 16-11-2014 13:46

Re: pic: new shoes
 
I was trying it yesterday and it wasn't working well at all, however out hose was leaking a lot so i think that was the direct cause. Once we fix/ replace the hose we can see how it works!

JesseK 17-11-2014 09:51

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Stephen, were you using the small yellow compressor directly or hooking it up to the wall-mounted air line? Send an email to Drake/Laverty to get a replacement host once you find the leak.

I'm not sure it's worth it to bring a compressor tank & air rivet gun to competition just for tread rivets, so we'll have to see what else we can rivet this season if the air rivet gun works so well we decide to go that route.

75vs1885 18-11-2014 20:56

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1408907)
Stephen, were you using the small yellow compressor directly or hooking it up to the wall-mounted air line? Send an email to Drake/Laverty to get a replacement host once you find the leak.

I'm not sure it's worth it to bring a compressor tank & air rivet gun to competition just for tread rivets, so we'll have to see what else we can rivet this season if the air rivet gun works so well we decide to go that route.

The small yellow one. As for competition I don't even think we can bring a compressor, if I recall properly then I saw a rule against it.

orangemoore 18-11-2014 22:03

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 75vs1885 (Post 1409117)
The small yellow one. As for competition I don't even think we can bring a compressor, if I recall properly then I saw a rule against it.

Bringing a compressor to competition is complicated. It is a black hole of debate.

cgmv123 18-11-2014 22:06

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1409130)
Bringing a compressor to competition is complicated. It is a black hole of debate.

There shouldn't be as much debate as there is; all the inspectors say "don't bring a non-robot compressor".

EDIT: *Ducks*

Gregor 18-11-2014 22:13

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1409131)
There shouldn't be as much debate as there is; all the inspectors say "don't bring a non-robot compressor".

Care to cite a rule?

mman1506 18-11-2014 22:17

Re: pic: new shoes
 
After some testing we found a large hand riveter (the style typically used for large rivets) worked better for putting nitrile on aluminium wheels than a air riveter. It allowed us to put a lot more pressure on the rivet when setting it compressing the tread around the rivet to create a secure attachment.

cgmv123 18-11-2014 22:33

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1409133)
Care to cite a rule?

These aren't rules, but any rules I can cite won't apply next year anyway:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=62
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=79
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=96
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=118
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=121
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=123
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...20&postcount=4
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=15

Gregor 18-11-2014 22:49

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Right, they're not absolutely disallowed. A blanket statement saying "all inspectors" will ask you to remove a shop compressor isn't true. Some events will allow them, some will not.

And some events will not allow them because teams MIGHT use them to fill up their air tanks???

mman1506 18-11-2014 23:18

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1408907)
I'm not sure it's worth it to bring a compressor tank & air rivet gun to competition just for tread rivets, so we'll have to see what else we can rivet this season if the air rivet gun works so well we decide to go that route.

Plug a air line into the robot's compressed air release valve and connect the other end to the riveter. Problem solved.

g_sawchuk 19-11-2014 07:56

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Wow, someone sure has been using those wheels. We had a demo on pavement, but we limited skid turns, so by the end, they were only a bit worn down. Then we replaced them for an off season event.

Andrew Schreiber 19-11-2014 17:36

Re: pic: new shoes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1409131)
There shouldn't be as much debate as there is; all the inspectors say "don't bring a non-robot compressor".

EDIT: *Ducks*

This is absolutely incorrect. There was NOT a rule in the books to forbid it. They can ask you not to run your shop compressor due to power concerns and you are absolutely not allowed to fill up your robot tanks from it. But there is NOT a rule saying it cannot be in the pits.

Richard Wallace 19-11-2014 21:39

Re: pic: new shoes
 
My those treads are worn. Good thing you know how to replace them, quickly.

----

Re: thread hijack to pit compressors -- at many events where I have volunteered, the people responsible for pit power want to know which teams have compressors. For example, at St. Joseph last year, we kept an inspector assigned to watch teams unloading and check for pit compressors. This was NOT motivated by suspicion that such teams might use pit compressors to fill pneumatic storage tanks before a match. It was motivated by a strong desire to keep pit power in service all the time, even if that meant juggling pit assignments so that the number of compressors on any one distribution circuit did not get too high. Fortunately, we did not need to move any teams or ask them to refrain from using pit compressors. I have been at events in past years where one or both of those things did occur.

Most of the pit compressors I have seen teams use at FRC events were rated for 15A current draw. That in itself is not much of a problem; however, many of these things draw much larger surge current when they start (I have measured up to 50A for a split-second) and THAT can push an already loaded distribution breaker past its trip point, knocking out power to a row of pits. Then the roadies have to scurry ...:o


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