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One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop
This question has been asked many times before, so I will pose it in a slightly different way.
Say your team has a modest shop facility. You have most mid-range tools such as cordless drills, manual hand tools, calipers, jig saws, chop saws, drill press, band saw, grinders, and belt sanders. Basically, you can generally do small scale fabrication without a lot of precision. What is THE ONE tool/machine you would get to level up your shop? I know the usual top two machines that get suggested but I want to ask, if you can only get one, what one should it be? Don't worry too much about price, anywhere from a couple hundred to a little over a thousand is reasonable. |
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop
Actually the next step I would take is some precision measuring tools. Calipers, depth indicators, etc.
A lathe would be the first machine tool I would recommend. There are many uses and it does things that none of the hand tools and general tools can do. It is the first step towards precision. You can make many things from HDPE to serve as a low speed bearing. Shafts, spacers, etc etc. It is not necessary to have a digital readout for the lathe (although it is nice if you can afford it) It is often said that with a lathe you can make a mill. I wouldn't try it though. Just remember that when you take the step toward machine tools you will need at least an equal budget for the "tools" that you will put in them as you do for the machine itself. Good luck |
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A manual milling machine probably used from someone that took care of it.
I often see them under $1,500 if you can find a way to move it. While you search for that you might be surprised and end up with a lathe and mill for that price. Watch Craigslist - there's a few Bridgeports right now in your price range in the Philadelphia and NJ areas and I searched the NC area and found several hits for around $1,000 for the term milling machine. I've had a few cases where a skilled craftsman has this stuff at their home shop and is just trying to be rid of it for one reason or another. I've brokered whole Bridgeports with tools for at little as $400 in the past. I have a ShopTask mill/drill/lathe in my garage that I got for $1,000 with 2 large tool boxes of tools and the CNC mounts. Just make sure you understand what power is actually available in your shop (single phase, 3 phase, etc...) |
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We invested in a horizontal band saw this off-season. So far we've found it's been much easier to get accurate cuts and the newer students seem to be a little more comfortable using it compared to the vertical or miter saw.
One thing I didn't see on your 'standard' list is an arbor press. Get an arbor press if you don't have one, makes pressing bearings so much easier. |
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For your specific needs, I really can only be generic: I would need to see what you build now to identify from which capabilities you may best benefit. Maybe you can do this yourself, or enlist someone unfamiliar with your team (but familiar with machining or constructing things) to take a close look. That being said: Well, the top 2 are there because they are the most useful. Data point: At home I have a lathe and mill. I make a LOT more things with the lathe. I find that I can almost always make things that might have been milled...without the mill. Data point: A lathe for $1k is no problem. A mill for $1k is iffy. Both include tooling. |
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I have to put my vote for a mill. If the part can be held in a collet it can be turned in a mill with out much trouble. Trying to mill in a lathe take special attachments.
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For piece of mind, it's hard to beat a Coldsaw as an upgrade from a chop saw. For $1,000 you can be assured that students would have to work REALLY hard to cut off a finger when cutting aluminum. The saw only turns at about 70 rpm and the material is firmly clamped.
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I have one of these, pretty handy:
http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/us/build/rage3.php It's got a special blade and the drive is geared. Not quite cold saw RPM though. It is around $300. |
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We did that last year, picked up a used Craftsman Atlas lathe for the shop. We've made some tweaks to it--it came without a cover for its belts, so we found a used one, picked up a new chuck for it, and one of the other mentors spent last weekend removing slop from one of the control handles. (It did come with a nearly complete tool set, too. That was nice.) It didn't take us more than a couple of weeks to put it to good use.
We're in about the same position you're in: Couple of bandsaws, welder, drill presses, grinder(s), table saw, plenty of hand tools, and now a lathe in one corner of the shop. |
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I high recommend a mill. We have a bridgeport and a low-power Jet lathe (it's barely decent). The mill sees work throughout the whole build season; you can mill gearbox plates, WCD siderails, hole patterns, and cut material to very precise lengths (given the measuring tools are at hand). We only used our lathe last year to cut spacers, and that can be done on a mill as well given round bar stock.
However, it does cost more to tool up a mill properly. You need endmills from 3/16" up to 1" diameter, holders for taps and dies, triangles, v blocks, parallels, a drill chuck for the mill, countersinks, and a few other thing you probably wouldn't have in the shop. For $1000-$2000, you could pick up a used Bridgeport (or at minimum a medium sized mill, not a Harbor Freight) and tool it up properly. That would be a very useful thing to have. A digital readout or long indicator is almost a must for drilling holes at spacings though. I highly recommend the former. |
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So, a bit of a follow up question then. A couple of people have said that with additional tooling you can do many "mill tasks" with a lathe. Is it feasible to purchase a lathe now, and then over time step up the lathe to do a couple milling tasks? It wouldn't give us the machining power of a full mill, but we could make do with a little pain and extra effort? And it would satisfy the "one machine" part of the question. :rolleyes: I ask because, like I said above, I envision a gradual increase in our tool quality and abilities, not a big jump one year. Getting a cheaper tool that can do some of the things that a more expensive tool can do, may tide us over until we are able to step things up further. |
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If nobody on your team knows how to use a mill or lathe, check your local community college for machining classes. They're fun and often times you can use the tools there anyway. |
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Do check the community college's policies, though, just to make sure. |
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Knee Mill - Bridgeport.
Call around to your local manufacturers. Ask if they can part with a mill in exchange for a sponsor-level. We got a knee mill donated by Darter Plastics inc - a local manufacturer. The company may find a way to rid themselves of an old piece of machinery that will become invaluable to your shop. |
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For FRC use, definitely lathe>mill if for no other reason than how many COTS parts now are made for hex shaft.
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Lathes have other uses however. Centering holes in round stock to quickly make standoffs is a big one. You can also tap holes with a lathe, and I have even known some teams to use it to broach. IMO it is also much quicker to learn how to correctly use a lathe than it is a mill, an important thing to consider when you have high school students using machines. |
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A decent quality, used lathe will unlock much more potential than any other tool at the same price range.
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I would recommend the Rage 3 saw that someone else mentioned. It's going to do a faster job with nearly equal cut quality and save you a bunch of money. |
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An alternative is an X-Y milling vise for your drill press. You can do light milling with somewhat more flexibility than the lathe setup. Avoid the very cheap ones, they are terribly inaccurate. These are great for drilling accurate hole patterns as well (and often that's the only use they see). Fair warning: Even if your drill press is a huge industrial beefy monster, this WILL hurt the spindle bearings a little each time you use it, but perhaps this trade-off is acceptable. New bearings are not costly, and the repair is good for the kids to learn. But a drill press is not designed for side loading on the chuck, just know that. Give yourself some time to find a good machine, maybe a whole year. Find a parent or local business willing to show you the basics (or the trade school option mentioned above). Buy the book "How to run a Lathe" - way old school (100 years ago!) but a treasure trove of excellent data and instruction. Ask here, there are many who would be tickled pink to help. |
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I suggest getting a surplus mill or lathe from a regional machine shop or manufacturer or workshop enthusist. We have three machines (two free) with a complete set of tools with a total investment of ~$1K plus a trailer rental for a 300 mile one way travel. It can be done on small budget like yours. Our equipment ranges in age from 20 to 40+ years but they are in full working order. Each unit has some quirks/idiosyncrasies which can be overcome by testing and measuring the results.
::safety:: :cool: ::rtm:: |
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Also, if you do have your drill press set up with one of these, do you just use an edge finder in the drill press the same way you would on a mill? |
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I recommend pneumatic rivet pullers and other pneumatic tools. They are usually more compact and can produce higher speeds.
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I will second the many suggestions in this thread to look to the used market. Be patient, and you'll find some great deals. My team got a FANTASTIC deal on a great quality off-brand Series 1 mill clone, with DRO, work holding, and X power feed included, for $700. We've also gotten a 12" lathe at a used tool shop for $600, and had a smaller lathe donated. |
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop
Are you planning this for this season? If so buy to mach your skills. If your team has lathe skill but not milling than buy a lathe. The same goes for mill or 3d printer or any other tools. It is not worth trying to learn how to use a tool during build. A mentor with sheet metal skills can do more for a team teaching the students with a shear and a brake then mill taking up need valuable time during build.
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Not to pile on top of the previous comments, but also note that drill chucks are unable to safely sustain radial loads, even when used in a proper milling machine.
Some tiny benchtop milling machines do have morse taper spindles, but they are designed for (small) radial loads, and include a drawbar like a regular milling machine would have. On topic - used is the way to go with your budget, but make sure you have someone familiar enough with a mill/lathe to make sure it's in decent operating condition. A beat to death bridgeport with a ton of backlash wouldn't be ideal. |
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On backlash: it's not a huge problem if you have a DRO and a reasonably heavy mill. I've been meaning to ask our maching mentor about tightening up the backlash on our Bridgeport, as it currently has around 0.060" of backlash. It has never been a problem for us as we only take light to medium cuts in aluminum, so as long as you're careful and don't heavy climb mill it should be fine. I agree that somebody knowledgeable about mills/ lathes whould go with you. Take along a checklist or something at the very least. Make sure that there's no rust in the spindle or on the ways, that it's not pitted to oblivion and flat, etc. |
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Count me as a mentor who has been pleased with a cold saw.
We've been cutting (yes it is slow) aluminum for a couple of seasons without injury. We did break a blade once when the stock was not long enough to clamp properly. Because of the low rpm the incident was alarming and instructive but not particularly dangerous. I will accept slow cuts, and higher upfront cost, to avoid the hazard (see other CD posts for scary stories of flying metal) of having anyone, especially students, cut metal with a high-speed chop saw. Not to mention the screeching. A pneumatic rivet gun set up is relatively cheap and as posted earlier a great next tool. And quite safe. |
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Can anyone who's used an x-y milling vise on a drill press answer my question about edge-finding?
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A drill press really isn't as accurate as a mill even if you're just drilling holes and not taking any passes with an endmill. It's just not made to be as accurate. |
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Thanks for the replies.
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I suppose one could use a center drill; in this case, I'd still edge it up by eye. Don't expect to hold 0.001" tolerances, and I can judge 0.005 by eye if I'm careful. Quote:
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Think of cutting a slot 2" long in 1/8" aluminum tubing: Drill holes at the endpoints, cut out the slot, then finish it with a mill in a drill press. Or other light milling. Hogging out metal from a chunk is unlikely to work well, simply because the drill press table will move (I don't care how tight you clamp it). Spindle bearings are angular roller bearings. Their failure mode is quite predictable and safe: They get noisy. That's why they are used for car wheel axles: Even in a very bad case, the wheel stays on. Wobbles maybe, but stays on (at least until the spindle breaks off). |
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When you can get a small manual Sherline or Taig for less than the cost of some industrial drill press it makes no sense to mill with a drill press. These little machines may be made from aluminum but they will cut aluminum all be it slowly. Plus you can basically carry them around all by yourself and they only need a simple conventional wall output for power.
I have a MaxNC10 CNC mill I am cleaning up. Complete with closed loop stepper control. This thing even has an NC tapping attachment (a stepper motor and tap chuck next to the head that it can deploy via aux ports on the control). Even with my modifications I can carry the MaxNC10, the extra attachments and 4th axis around all by myself. I am thinking of building a case so that I can ship it more easily and use mist coolant. I bought it used and fixed it up when they damaged all the leads during the shipping. |
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Monochron,
One place to find machine tools is manufacturing associations. One I try to point out is the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA). Greensboro has a chapter. Piedmont Chapter PO Box 13355 Greensboro, NC 27415 Phone 336-312-9197 Fax 336-868-7770 http://www.ntma.org Edge finders are great for quickly picking up edges but they will only be as accurate in relationship to the run out of the edge finder body. If the body is running out .010 total indicator reading (TIR) do not plan on anything better than .005 in position. I would like to highly discourage the use of milling on a drill press in a teaching environment. Someone in their own shop in one thing but when students are involved it’s a different story. Starting RPM for a ¼ inch high speed end mill is over 3,000 rpm which is faster than most drill presses will run. With that kind of speed, chatter could break the taper loose on the chuck without any warning. Mr. Mike |
Re: One tool/machine to level up a moderate shop
One tool I thought I wouldn't need much but I ended up getting for Team 11 was a tapping head.
At some point we had this idea to drill *lots* of holes into aluminum and tap them instead of using rivets. We have Haas CNC lathe and mill but the rigid tapping feature is over $1,000 after it times out. Not to mention the tap holders and hardened taps. You can still get tapping heads and at that, tapping heads for CNC machines. So I grabbed a couple of old Tapmatic NC. We still need to make an interlock plate for the face of the Haas spindle but once we do we can tap in the Haas mill with it and it even works with the 10 tool changer. Then if something happens to the Haas mill we can tap in the manual mills with the same tapping head. If we have no milling machines there's always a drill press with the same tapping head (you put the interlock bar against the post of the drill press). All the interlock does is hold the body of the tapping head from spinning. So since this tool can easily be gotten for cheap and can be gotten to work on a drill press. If someone envisioned lots of tapping (say for tool plates or Erector set parts or something like that) it might be handy to have around. No idea what a tapping head is, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtYzhlKFbjA |
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The 1E model covers #0 to 1/4" taps, and the 2E covers #8 to 1/2" (in aluminum). You can find them with 1/2" straight shanks or morse taper shanks. I used the 1E model, it struggled a bit with 1/4" taps but the clutch was probably adjusted a bit too low. I would probably try a pick up a 2E since we didn't use it for anything smaller than a #8. The CNC part is probably not relevant to the OP, but as an aside, pretty much any CNC mill should be able to tap threads using a "floating" tap holder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lrphpqUCY http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders...duct_info.html One of the main benefits of rigid tapping is that you can put taps in any normal "rigid" toolholder (ER commonly), so you do end up saving some money that way. |
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The math may still work out better for having the tapping head to use off machine in a drill press, but you don't need any specialty holders/taps for CNC use. Any run of the mill tap held in an ER or TG collet (or whatever your collet of choice is) works fine. |
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Originally all Tapmatic heads used that rubber and metal blade style collet. As the ER collets worked their way into the Sherline, Taig and MaxNC world so did they work their way into the tapping head world. So many of the newer Tapmatic designs have ER collets. I have lots of different SAE and metric collets so this added accessory set of the ER collets, which has more pieces for the range of sizes, was not a huge deal for us. I did run into the issue, as stated before, that nobody made the proper interlock bar for the Haas spindle we have. Neither Tapmatic nor their competitors. However tracing the mill spindle face on paper and making the part is a good project. Quote:
I had given the school some of my BodCAD package licenses to hold and use at no cost but the other mentors were more familiar with MasterCAM so we went and got the MasterCAM. I am fine with MasterCAM and HSMWorks on the Haas personally as well. I had a few exposures to HSMWorks via Solidworks at places like NextFAB. I've used MasterCAM professionally. I've used BobCAD for my hobby work. I have quite a few older versions of BobCAD that I acquired from closing businesses at a large discount over the years. I learned CNC on G/M code direct entry so for simple things I usually just need a terminal. I am so inclined to make my students work on my friend's retrofitted Bridgeport with the punch tape reader :) |
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