pool noodles
 

Where does one find them in Michigan in the winter?

Re: pool noodles
 

Amazon.com ?

Re: pool noodles
 

In your shop, because you bought them in the fall. :rolleyes: :p

Sorry, that's next year. For those that didn't know to plan ahead, your friends down in Kokomo, Indiana have your back. http://www.andymark.com/Bumpers-s/253.htm Scroll down a bit. (And, while you're at it, browse around the rest of the site. Just don't blow your entire robot budget there.)

Now, I do have to give you guys fair warning. We don't know for sure that we actually will need pool noodles this year, given that we didn't get any blog posts about making sure you have your supply. But, with the bumper rules as they have been for the last few years, I think your concern is reasonable. And, as noted, one source is in Indiana.

Re: pool noodles
 

Here is a 20 pack on Amazon.
You may also try other places, but this about the going price for bulk/quantity purchases. You may be able to find a pool/spa store that has some leftover in the back room.

[Edit] Ether beat me to it... and EricH, thanks for providing a link to AndyMark. I would have guessed/known that they sold the noodles.

In all seriousness, set an alarm or calendar reminder for the middle of August to get them in the summer months or as the stores are prepping to switch seasons. [/Edit]

Re: pool noodles
 

If you are going to Grand Rapids for kick off I can bring you some. There may be another team more local to you who buys them when they see them like I do in September. If they are a dollar or less I grab a few, we probably have thirty in our storage room.

Re: pool noodles
 

You will find them in local pool supply stores.

Re: pool noodles
 

Along these lines, does anyone have a good source for buying SOLID pool noodles online? The stiffer, the better. I've got way more than enough hollow squishy ones.

Re: pool noodles
 

Search for solid pool noodles on Amazon....they have them...

Re: pool noodles
 

If you get the the store at just the right time, when they're clearing out the pool supplies for fall, you can talk to the manager and offer $1 a noodle for the case(s) and no foolin', that works.

Did get all pink noodles, but that's no big deal. Can't see 'em on the 'bot anyway.

As for 'solid' noodles, can you foam 'great-stuff' into the center? I think maybe you want your bottom noodle to be solid and the upper noodle hollow, so you'll get a wedge-effect that gets the other robots' weight onto your machine so you get the traction. Would that work?

Re: pool noodles
 

Pool noodle = Polyethylene Foam

Here is a site that sells cylinders of polyethylene foam: http://www.foambymail.com/PE2C/polye...cylinders.html
(Disclaimer: I have not ordered from this site).

At $8 for one 70 inch length they are significantly more expensive than pool noodles.

I used to do packaging engineering for Northrop. There will be a foam supplier somewhere nearby who does custom shipping containers and custom foam. Find one locally and call them and see if they can get you polyethylene cylinders in larger quantity for a discount. If you mention what it's for I bet they will give you a discount or wholesale price.

-matto-

Re: pool noodles
 

The Wikipedia article for pool noodles mentions FRC in the section "Other Uses".

Re: pool noodles
 

A student used pool noodles for a boat project in June. I "salvaged" them and put them in our robotics room once the project was done.

Re: pool noodles
 

Rip them from your old robot? On a serious note, it'll be difficult to find them at a local store by now. Should've prepared ahead of time. I'd try Amazon. Maybe ebay.

Re: pool noodles
 

We bought ours during build season last year. We just called around to a few pool supply stores and bought a large quantity (30 maybe) for rather cheap (don't remember specific price, but it was a lot cheaper than amazon). They usually have them all year round.

Re: pool noodles
 

The rules in previous years around bumpers are pretty prescriptive:

Think carefully about using substitutes, particularly ones that don't look like pool noodles or have substantially different physical properties. You may end up needing to "sell" them to the inspectors at the competition.

I hate working on bumpers at competitions.

Re: pool noodles
 

Isn't this against the rules?

Re: pool noodles
 

Not any more. Bumpers aren't considered part of the robot (in 2014) and the (2014) rules against reusing fabricated parts don't apply to them.

Re: pool noodles
 

Inspectors do not disassemble the bumpers for inspection. So, if it looks like a pool noodle under the cover, and feels like a pool noodle ...

You can cannibalize parts. Reusing the pool noodle is ok.

Re: pool noodles
 

If we are able to buy from local pool supply store in Michigan during peak winter, they will be available in other states too! BTW swimming is not just summer activity! Grocery and big chain stores keep seasonal products, but pool supply stores keep them all year round.

Re: pool noodles
 

Our team's policy at the competition is to disclose anything that is remotely questionable to the inspectors at the time of inspection, allowing us time to fix it if they are going to object.

Last year, we had this on our robot, and specifically pointed it out to the inspectors with a discussion of how the rules applied. It created a bit of consternation, but ultimately was allowed based on how we were using it.

The worst time to find that a part is disallowed is when your bumper comes apart during the competition, revealing 20lb of air entrained concrete :rolleyes:. No time to remediate.

Re: pool noodles
 

The pink noodles are superior...and even though you can't see them, just knowing they are pink gives you a competitive advantage. Your scouts should be telling other teams that there are pink noodles in those bumpers.

Re: pool noodles
 

I have heard of an over zealous inspector taking a knife to a team's bumpers to check what's inside :ahh:

Re: pool noodles
 

Kevin,
An inspector should not cut or damage your bumper in any way.
Bumpers do not need to be made new each year and are not part of the with holding allowance under R18 2014 rules, (and forever, I hope). You're welcome.

Re: pool noodles
 

Why promote not following the rules, when the rules have been very clear in the past and easy to follow regarding bumpers? ::rtm::

If you don't have access to pool noodles in person, then order them online.

Re: pool noodles
 

I would say no, you cannot fill the hollow with Great Stuff. A pool noodle is a pool noodle and is legal for use on a FRC Robot (under previous years rules. My ruling would be a pool noodle filled with Great Stuff is not in line with the rules.

Re: pool noodles
 

I should have added (thanks Dana) that if the two noodles do not feel the same, we will want to know why.

Re: pool noodles
 

When the rules say "plywood, or solid, robust wood", it is pretty clear you can't use a metal plate.

"pool noodle" is more a description than a specification (such as wood). A "pool noodle" is generally accepted to be a cylindrical piece of polyethylene foam. So, if someone wants to use a cylindrical piece of polyethylene foam, that is not sold as a "pool noodle", then why not?

Similarly, if company XYZ sells a "pool noodle" made of a synthetic cork compound that floats, is it not allowed because it is not polyethylene foam?

Since Industrial Thermal Polymers invented the "pool noodle" 30 years ago, is their official "pool noodle" the only pool noodle that can be used (literal interpretation), or can anything that functions like a "pool noodle" be used?

Re: pool noodles
 

I can definitely see this reasoning, but to follow on from another comment above, apparently we can use solid noodles...so do I have to only use solids with solids and hollow-with-hollows, or can I put a hollow above and a solid below.

And would the wedge-effect I've imagined really be anything or is this just wishful thinking?

As for pink working better, yeah, I knew that. That's it. Yeah, I knew.

Re: pool noodles
 

Here's the training video for inspectors on checking the feel of the bumpers, for everyone's reference.

Re: pool noodles
 

If they suspect there is something that isn't right, they won't disassemble the bumpers.

They'll make you disassemble the bumpers until they're satisfied that you aren't hiding a steel rod inside hollow pool noodles or some similar stunt. Often that would be one or both ends, not the whole thing.

Re: pool noodles
 

Thanks for all the helpful input. I did find them at Amazon for over $10 each.

I think we (rookie team #5502, The Cobrots, Jonesville, MI) will import some in bulk. We'll have them available in a couple weeks.

No holes 6.5cm. $30 for 20'. Proceeds go to the team.

We will have them at the Grand Rapids kick-off (save on shipping).

Please spread the word to rookie teams in need. Our robot "needs a new pair of shoes".

Thanks

Phil McDowell, coach
#5502, The Cobrots

Re: pool noodles
 

we put out a email request at our school we get lots of them

Re: pool noodles
 

Sorry, that should have been $20 for 20'.

Re: pool noodles
 

So if you had one solid and one non-solid pool noodle in your bumper, would that be allowed? (solid meaning solid foam)

Re: pool noodles
 

Based on last year's rules and being a LRI and RI last season I'd let it pass. There was nothing in the rules that stated that all the pool noodles had to be the same.

Re: pool noodles
 

I found a couple boxes of them in the gardening department of Lowe's

Re: pool noodles
 

Under 2014 rules yes, there is nothing to prevent that. A good inspector still might ask you for an explanation or perhaps to see a sample of the materials you use.

Re: pool noodles
 

We always bought our noodles from National Discount Pool Supplies. Great product, close to 2 5/8'' in dia. with a 3/4'' hole, high density. Last year we bought a few from AndyMark, didn't use them, they were 2 3/8'' with 1'' hole.

Re: pool noodles
 

My guy just got back with me and they are 7cm not 6.5. The rules are quite explicit that 2.5" noodles are to be used.

Can 7cm noodles without a hole be used? It sounds like solid is good but is bigger better? Is bigger legal?

Did I mention that the team and I are rookies? oh, much to learn.

thanks

Re: pool noodles
 

Re: pool noodles
 

thanks

Re: pool noodles
 

Notice that the rule and the Q&A both mention "Pool Noodles" though (in quotes), solid or hollow and approximately 2-1/2" Round Petal or Hex. That other link to the McMaster site does not market that round polyethelene as "Pool Noodles." (So are they really "Pool Noodles?")

Why try to 'lawyer' the rules on (of all things), an easily secured material such as "pool noodles?"

And, someone even thinking or posting something like what I saw earlier "They don't open your bumpers during inspection, so don't worry about any violation of a rule"...(It wasn't a direct quote, but could easily be taken that way)...is quite disheartening IMHO, to say the very least. (When the cover rips open in the final rounds of eliminations, District, Regional, or Championships, you are not the only ones directly involved, that may be affected by your teams possible disqualification, and your face might be mighty red! And for what stinking real purpose?)

Inspectors would easily find those "solid steel bars hidden inside as LCOG weight" (or other material), w/ a simple finger / thumb compression squish! Or, hear the "thunk" later, on the field of play."

Please teams, Just Follow the simple rule (choose Solid or Hollow, approx. 2-1/2", a very easily obtained material, and everywhere avail. marketed to be sold as, "Pool Noodles") to simply make your bumpers from.

Go to Walmart.com at the link below (or your local Walmart store, they probably have a few cases right now, stored in the back this time of year and not out on the shelves, if you are in the US snow zone or elsewhere in the cold regions, and may make you a really good deal in the offseason, or better yet (he or she, has a donation budget for good worthwhile community causes, BTW)....Find & tell the Walmart or other store mgr., what you are doing with them exactly (provide them details here), as he / she, may just surprise you quite highly & even donate them to your team, if you request it, to help your school Robotics team out a little financially). Always work this angle...And Get Them "Directly Involved."

http://www.walmart.com/search/?query=Pool%20Noodles

For heavens sake, stay away from the 4" square solid blue ones or the other funky shapes listed at the link above:D ....Buy the 2.5" round or hex, solid or hollow ones like the rule simply says.

Bumpers Away! 28 days and counting.

Re: pool noodles
 

I couldn't find any McMaster link in the previous posts but the foambymail.com link DOES say their product can be used as pool noodles explicitly. I'd be willing to spend $50 on a significant tactical advantage like that if its within the budget. How is that lawyering? Backfilling a noodle with anything, including more foam or a steel rod, is obviously against the letter and spirit of the rules, and no team should ever consider doing that, but getting higher quality materials isn't a problem.

Re: pool noodles
 

The rule says "pool noodles" (and again in other spots without the quotes). You're getting a tactical advantage by buying something that isn't pool noodles but can be used as pool noodles.


Emphasis on "tactical advantage".


If y'all don't mind me sayin', them words should not come into play with respect to a closely-defined bumper construction element. Cloth, sure, because the requirement is that the cloth be rugged and smooth, but no other requirements are placed. But when the term is "pool noodles", then you should be using pool noodles. Not ordering stuff that gives some tactical advantage over pool noodles.

You know WHY bumpers are standardized these days? Back in the bad ol' days, before the standard bumpers were introduced, teams could build bumpers and put them on their robot, provided that they fit in size and weight, and you wouldn't hurt your hand by punching them. Some teams are rumored to have built a system into those bumpers that would transfer their opponents' weight to THEM, by lifting. The next year or so, the standard bumpers came out and had a prescribed construction.

Re: pool noodles
 

If some "rugged and smooth cloth" can have a tactical advantage over other "rugged and smooth cloth," then why can't some "pool noodles" have an advantage over other "pool noodles"?

Re: pool noodles
 

Wrong question.

The product in question is marketed as "can be used for pool noodles". NOT marketed as "pool noodles".

"Rugged" and "smooth" are characteristics of the cloth--thus, any cloth with those characteristics, as judged first by the team, then by the inspectors, falls into the category. "Pool noodles" is a product type--if I go to the store and buy pool noodles, I have a reasonable expectation that they won't give me a pipe blanket (foam used to protect pipes/people contacting hot water pipes). They might be the same material, but if I got a pipe blanket instead of a pool noodle, I'd have some pretty good grounds of asking store management to retrain whoever gave me that.


It might be the same discussion as we had in '07 over "grip tape" vs "grip tread", or in '11 over "light switch" vs "switch" on the Minibots, but when it comes to FRC, the distinction can be the difference between a lot of work to pass inspection on Thursday and a lot of practice on Thursday.

Re: pool noodles
 

From the page I referenced:

"appropriate for applications from insulating and weather stripping to "noodle" swimming toys at the pool or beach."

That's what they are. They are solid core, that's it. I can't find solid core consistently at Walmart. Actually, I've /never/ found solid core noodles there. If you have a source other than the foam company who sells the solid core product and you think it isn't fair for me to buy them in white, please let me know and I'll put in a purchase order from them instead.

Re: pool noodles
 

And I also don't understand how the way the product is marketed is relevant. Do the words "appropriate for use as noodles for the pool or beach" (emphasis on "appropriate for") magically change what the product actually is? It is The. Same. Thing. It has a solid core, as do the most desirable noodles we can purchase that are marketed /as/ noodles.

Re: pool noodles
 

It's kind of funny that I just wrote "the most desirable noodles".

Re: pool noodles
 

You were around for BOTH of the years I referenced. Do you NOT remember the to-do about "light switch" vs. "lamp switch" for the minibots in 2011? You could literally buy the same part from two different vendors, and one would be legal and one would not because one sold it as a lamp switch and the other as a light switch. The same went for "grip tape" and "stair tread" when applied to robot ramps in '07--same exact product, but the grip tape was ILLEGAL because it was "tape" and at that time, all tape was illegal except for electrical tape and labeling tape. I'm not making this up. (For the Minibots, even weld rod--aluminum stock--was briefly ruled illegal!)

The amount of sense the rule (or actually, the ruling) in the above cases makes (which in the referenced cases was roughly zero) is irrelevant. It's still the rule. And while most inspectors would agree that it makes no sense, and wouldn't understand the reasoning behind the rule, the GDC apparently didn't realize that--notice that those rules aren't really making much of a return.


Incidentally, the fact that the company is selling the product in question as being appropriate for weather stripping and insulating... and the same product as being appropriate for pool noodles... That's got me questioning their marketing, and their material. There are differences between weather stripping, insulating, and pool noodle materials.

Re: pool noodles
 

I was around for both those years but was blissfully unaware of all that, or I've blocked it from memory. Forgive me for being out of that loop; so you're saying that the /same/ product was either legal or illegal depending on what the vendor called it? Wow. If that's the case, then you're right and I won't buy from the foam company. But man, that is weird. Like, weird weird.

Sorry if I was being a jerk about it.

Re: pool noodles
 

Of course the standard rules may be different this season but yes in the past for both FRC and FTC they have used the "marketed as" to define whether a particular time was legal or not.

Re: pool noodles
 

Now that we are approaching the start of the season, I would like to remind everyone to read the rules, all the rules, please. We change rules from season to season including those rules that everyone think do not change from year to year. I tell everyone to expect the unexpected and read everything. If you think you are at the end of a rule, turn the page and check that it does not continue on the next page. If I had a nickel for every time a team told me that they didn't read that rule "because it never changes", I would be a rich man.
As to the pool noodle for bumpers. There was some exhaustive testing done in an attempt to come up with a easy to implement method of protecting robots. Up to that point, we were seeing a team be put out of competition in an unfortunate collision that damaged some part of their robot. Woodie, especially hated to see that, and so did/do I. The bumper design is a way to protect robots with a predictable, energy absorbing system, that should be easy to build from cheap parts. Inspectors check the construction of your bumpers to insure you and everyone you play against will be able to play match after match. When you use other materials or try to fill the void with 'hard parts', that puts you and other robots at risk.
BTW, the construction is also to help you make you robot look good on TV. That is why we don't want you to use tywraps, duct tape, etc. to hold them on. Our viewing audience may not understand the game or your strategy, but they certainly can tell an ugly bumper system when they see one.

Re: pool noodles
 

Well this escalated quickly...
I know Target will sell you a box of 28 pool noodles and I imagine other stores like it will do the same, although I haven't checked the prices.
What I find interesting in all this is that no official bumper material is sold. Like if GenericCorpRobotics just suddenly made the filler for bumpers and you just bought sections of it that might save a lot of hassle.
On the flip side creative thinking with bumpers has lead to some recent proposals like more then one material providing a gripping surface or a slick surface. Personally I have faith in the students to design robots so why not at some point try having bumper rules be more like robot design rules.
I imagine implementing rules that made bumper design much more flexible would push some teams to try really cool things.

Re: pool noodles
 

You also use pool noodles in the WATER…. Especially when participating in GAMES in the WATER….

Re: pool noodles
 

I'm always complaining about the challenges we have being from Hawaii doing FRC.
However, Pool Noodles is probably 1 of the 3 advantages we have in doing FRC here. Those things are everywhere 365 days a year!;)