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Hallry 05-12-2014 09:39

[FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Posted on the FRC Blog, 12/5/14: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...idays-12052014

Quote:

Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014

Blog Date: Friday, December 5, 2014 - 09:19

Today’s good question comes from Chris Picone, from FRC Team 2791, Shaker Robotics, from Latham, New York, USA:

Question:

Hi Frank,

I'm Chris Picone, currently a mentor for FIRST FRC Team 2791, Shaker Robotics, from Latham, NY. My question today is about when practice matches are scheduled at regional events.

The scheduling of events on Practice Day at regionals has always bothered me. Using the Finger Lakes Regional agenda as an example, Practice Day runs from 8:30 AM to 8:00 PM. Practice matches are scheduled from 10 AM to 4:30 PM with an hour break for lunch, allowing teams 5.5 hours to play these matches. Teams then have from 4:30 PM until 8 to do whatever they need.

I believe this current system has a lot of problems. First, the practice matches before noon are extremely under-utilized. Even for teams whom are finished with their robot, the process of setting up a pit, testing everything, and getting pre-inspected often takes a while. Expecting teams to make a match beginning just 90 minutes after they first have access to their robot is quite a high bar. As a result, the practice matches from 10-12 barely even happen, and when they do there are never more than two robots on the field.

After lunch, the situation is usually a little bit better. However, inspectors rightfully encourage teams to get fully inspected as soon as they can. This is something my team has done and we have missed practice matches to meet this goal before. Even with a complete or nearly complete robot, by getting inspected early we have trouble making more than a single scheduled practice match in a day.

Once matches are over, teams that are "done" and inspected can do essentially nothing. The practice field is usually already fully booked at this point, and since robot operation in the pits is quite limited, all of the extra time of practice day just goes to waste. The only teams who benefit from this time are teams who are not done finishing their robots, and these teams would miss their practice matches no matter when they were scheduled.

I believe if we changed the current system to have practice matches from 12:30 PM to 6 PM, with the possible addition of an inspection requirement, practice day would be better for everyone. Inspectors would be happy as teams no longer have an incentive to push inspections off. Teams with finished or mostly finished robots would have four hours to get their pits and robots in order before they have to practice. Teams without finished robots would actually have a chance of testing their robot if they work quickly enough. All teams would enjoy the benefits of a practice match with more partners and opponents to play with. Volunteers would be needed for the same amount of time as they would be with the old schedule (5.5 hours), so their commitment would not grow. Finally, there would be far less "wasted time" at the end of the day where teams are done but can't do anything since the practice field is closed. To me, it seems like a win-win situation for all parties involved.

I guess this is less of a question and more of a suggestion - my apologies for that. If there are other factors in play influencing the practice match schedule, or if there are good reasons why this idea isn't feasible, I'd love to hear about them. I know setting up something as complex and large scale as a FIRST competition is never easy, and perhaps there are factors in play not obvious to participants that make things work this way. All that said, I believe a change like this would greatly increase team competitiveness, improve the quality of matches, and help prevent the end-of-day "inspection rush".

Thank you for your time and consideration

Answer:

Hi Chris. Great suggestion. Consider it done.

We’ve actually had a team of staffers, volunteers, and event management professionals looking at this issue since September. The team was led by Collin Fultz, FRC Team Advocate. Just this week we got mostly positive feedback on the plan from the Regional Directors, which was the last element we were looking for before moving forward.

We recognized this as a problem. I’ve been to many Regionals at which the greatest place and time to take a nap was on the field at 10AM on Thursday, when practice matches were supposed to be starting but teams weren’t ready. Not the teams’ fault – there’s just much to do that first morning at a Regional. Scheduling practice matches well before most teams are ready is a waste of resources, as you point out.

You may wonder why we needed a cross-functional team to look at this, rather than the FRC staff just saying ‘go’. As you speculated, when we start shifting schedules around, we experience a cascade effect. Volunteers need to work different or longer hours, meal needs may change, and some other planned activities may need to be moved. Event schedules are a network of gears – hard to shift one without affecting the others in some way.

But, the good news is we’re making this change for the 2015 season. At Regional events, practice rounds will run without planned interruption from 12:00PM to 6:30PM. (Hey, that’s an hour longer than you asked for! Sweet.) The lunch break will be scheduled before this time. The plan is to have scheduled practice rounds until 5:30PM, and open field practice from 5:30 to 6:30. During scheduled rounds, as in the past, teams are assigned specific practice slots and may practice during those times even if they have not passed inspection. A filler line will continue to be available during that time, only for teams that have fully passed inspection. The hour of open field practice at the end of the day is only for teams that have fully passed inspection. Here’s the message: please focus on passing inspection, so you can maximize your practice time!

There may be some minor variation in this schedule between events, but this will be the standard schedule.

Frank

Frank Answers Fridays is a weekly-ish blog feature where I’ll be answering ‘good questions’ from the FRC community. You can e-mail your questions to goodfrcquestion@usfirst.org. Please include your name, team number and where you’re from, which will be shared, if selected.

notmattlythgoe 05-12-2014 09:42

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Beautiful!

Caleb Sykes 05-12-2014 09:44

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Great change, I'm really excited to see this implemented in the future.

PayneTrain 05-12-2014 09:47

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 

sanddrag 05-12-2014 09:48

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Chris Picone, you are my hero!

I submitted the following way back on August 7th but it was never responded to until now. You put the same idea in more detailed words. Thank you my friend.

I'm glad they've acted on my second paragraph. This is a positive change that is years overdue. Now, howabout the load-in issue? What do you say FIRST?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me
Hello Frank,

My question is about three related issues at regional events: load-in, pit setup, and practice time. Currently, teams are permitted to load in equipment on the evening prior to practice day, but it traditionally has been a "drop it and leave" type of affair. The trouble is, come the morning of practice day, teams are then un-loading everything they placed within their pit boundaries the previous evening, into the aisles, in order set up their pit areas. It creates a crowded unsafe situation, and a lot of havoc, especially when teams are rushing to get inspected and make it onto the practice field. Why not let teams set up their pit areas on the evening of load-in?

And as the second part of my question, why is the official field closed and off limits on the evening of practice day, when teams need it the most, and the pit area is open until 8PM? Would it not make for better qualifying matches if every team was afforded ample practice or testing time (until say 7PM) on the real competition field? Current practice fields do not nearly meet the demand at most venues after scheduled official practice ends.

Thank you.


MARS_James 05-12-2014 09:49

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
This is great news to hear, as it also allows for more of a chance to let new field team members learn their roles before official matches start, so this year hopefully we won't have a human player run up to a robot and forget to take the ball off the pedestal :D

Koko Ed 05-12-2014 09:56

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
As a Lead Que I am glad for the change. I HATE Thursdays at FIRST events with a passion. The mornings are a complete waste of time for volunteers as we're just sitting around waiting for teams to show up and I never understood why they close the field down at 4:30 when the pits are open til 8. I say let them play until it's time to go home.
I would also like to see them do away with the schedule. It's stupid and adds stress to the volunteers who often have to scramble to put teams on and off the field because if it (if a scheduled team comes stumbling up late but has already been replaced by a fill in we have to kick the fill in out to put the latecomer in thus delaying the match further). It's much easier to roll teams to the back of the line and build matches (ala IRI) than it is to work around a useless schedule.

Karthik 05-12-2014 10:00

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
This is something I've been asking about for years! Thanks to Frank, Collin, and everyone else who pushed for this change and worked to implement it. This will be a huge improvement for both teams and volunteers.

TylerStaudigel 05-12-2014 10:09

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Are the pits still going to be open in the morning for teams to setup and hopefully finish their robots?

Jessica Boucher 05-12-2014 10:11

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
When Collin asked me to help on this, I literally screamed at my desk because I was so excited we were planning on fixing something I had a problem with all the way back to my student days.

Ed, I know I gave my opinions with your shoes in mind, as well as helping the LRIs who were on the call as well. I personally feel the schedule is important as it preps new teams for the process of getting on the field before actual matches begin. That's not to say it can't be tweaked to better utilize our resources, but if you want more to do on Thursday morning we can totally make that happen. :)

notmattlythgoe 05-12-2014 10:12

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerStaudigel (Post 1411697)
Are the pits still going to be open in the morning for teams to setup and hopefully finish their robots?

I would imagine nothing changes except the times the field is open to robots.

mastachyra 05-12-2014 10:35

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Someone give him a Woodie Flowers Award!!!

Nemo 05-12-2014 12:49

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Awesome change. This makes so much sense. Thanks to everybody who caused sense to happen.

Tom Bottiglieri 05-12-2014 13:12

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Seems like a really positive change. Good job.

AllenGregoryIV 05-12-2014 13:35

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1411690)
As a Lead Que I am glad for the change. I HATE Thursdays at FIRST events with a passion. The mornings are a complete waste of time for volunteers as we're just sitting around waiting for teams to show up and I never understood why they close the field down at 4:30 when the pits are open til 8. I say let them play until it's time to go home.
I would also like to see them do away with the schedule. It's stupid and adds stress to the volunteers who often have to scramble to put teams on and off the field because if it (if a scheduled team comes stumbling up late but has already been replaced by a fill in we have to kick the fill in out to put the latecomer in thus delaying the match further). It's much easier to roll teams to the back of the line and build matches (ala IRI) than it is to work around a useless schedule.

Overall a good change, I'd be happier to see Ed's system fully implemented but this is far better than doing nothing. Thanks Frank, Collin, and everyone else that worked on this.

Michael Hill 05-12-2014 13:37

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Frank (and staff) comes through again! Thanks!

Jon Stratis 05-12-2014 14:04

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1411690)
As a Lead Que I am glad for the change. I HATE Thursdays at FIRST events with a passion. The mornings are a complete waste of time for volunteers as we're just sitting around waiting for teams to show up and I never understood why they close the field down at 4:30 when the pits are open til 8. I say let them play until it's time to go home.
I would also like to see them do away with the schedule. It's stupid and adds stress to the volunteers who often have to scramble to put teams on and off the field because if it (if a scheduled team comes stumbling up late but has already been replaced by a fill in we have to kick the fill in out to put the latecomer in thus delaying the match further). It's much easier to roll teams to the back of the line and build matches (ala IRI) than it is to work around a useless schedule.

I would support that... IF there were some rules in place to encourage inspections - only teams that have passed inspection can go out, or you can only go out once an hour until you pass, something like that... we don't want to see teams spend 6 hours cycling through the line over and over again, then scrambling at the very end of the day to get inspected.

AllenGregoryIV 05-12-2014 14:09

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1411764)
I would support that... IF there were some rules in place to encourage inspections - only teams that have passed inspection can go out, or you can only go out once an hour until you pass, something like that... we don't want to see teams spend 6 hours cycling through the line over and over again, then scrambling at the very end of the day to get inspected.

To be honest, I don't think teams should be allowed to practice until they either pass inspection or the LRI says they can (special cases late in the day, minor changes that aren't critical but may take time). Every year we talk about potentially dangerous robots on the practice field and with no official rules about "safety inspections" there isn't much that can be done. I don't remember the last time we went the practice field with out being inspected but I know it's not very often.

Joe G. 05-12-2014 14:15

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1411765)
To be honest, I don't think teams should be allowed to practice until they either pass inspection or the LRI says they can (special cases late in the day, minor changes that aren't critical but may take time). Every year we talk about potentially dangerous robots on the practice field and with no official rules about "safety inspections" there isn't much that can be done. I don't remember the last time we went the practice field with out being inspected but I know it's not very often.

I would agree with this. I've always been somewhat baffled by how FIRST chooses what elements of the inspection process truly get emphasized with things like this, as well as elimination re-inspections. Robots make it out there with potentially dangerous electrical or pneumatic flaws, but god forbid your bumpers sag too low...

BrendanB 05-12-2014 14:18

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe G. (Post 1411768)
...but god forbid your bumpers sag too low...

This. I don't think we've ever made it through an elimination inspection without having to adjust our bumpers because its just a hair out of the bumper zone in one spot.

dodar 05-12-2014 14:37

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1411771)
This. I don't think we've ever made it through an elimination inspection without having to adjust our bumpers because its just a hair out of the bumper zone in one spot.

I've been on 1592 since 2007, I dont think we've ever been told that our bumpers were too low or sagging or outside the bumper zone. I always thought it was one of the few rules that hardly got called on.

Tem1514 Mentor 06-12-2014 09:32

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1411765)
To be honest, I don't think teams should be allowed to practice until they either pass inspection or the LRI says they can (special cases late in the day, minor changes that aren't critical but may take time). Every year we talk about potentially dangerous robots on the practice field and with no official rules about "safety inspections" there isn't much that can be done. I don't remember the last time we went the practice field with out being inspected but I know it's not very often.

How many times have we seen a robot just not work during quals because they never made it to the field to make sure the coms to the FMS are working?
So for me, everyone should or must go to the field at least once on Thursday, inspected or not.

Koko Ed 06-12-2014 09:39

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tem1514 Mentor (Post 1411901)
How many times have we seen a robot just not work during quals because they never made it to the field to make sure the coms to the FMS are working?
So for me, everyone should or must go to the field at least once on Thursday, inspected or not.

When the practice matches are done we have a list of every team that has not made it to the field and encourage them to come out and link up the the field.

Jon Stratis 06-12-2014 10:06

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1411903)
When the practice matches are done we have a list of every team that has not made it to the field and encourage them to come out and link up the the field.

Same here. Even if it isn't for a real match, the FTA, queuers, and LRI work together to make sure everyone has connected, even if nothing else is working on the robot. That doesn't mean teams won't screw something up before quals!

Qbot2640 06-12-2014 10:27

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
This is a phenomenal change - the only downside for us is that it will shorten the awesome Thursday night team dinner we always have at the NC Regional in a top secret location we found in Durham.

To the concerns above about uninspected robots cycling for hours, the events I have participated in (either with my team or as a volunteer) have only allowed uninspected teams to play in their "scheduled" practice matches...you must pass inspection to fill in empty spots.

NOW, if FIRST would allow teams to set up their pits Wednesday night (still no robot unbagging, of course) so they could be ready first thing Thursday morning to get started working or get inspected - that would make practice day run a great deal better.

MrRoboSteve 06-12-2014 10:33

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
When working in the CSA role, I coordinate with inspectors (Hi Jon!) and start visiting the list of "haven't been on the field yet" teams early in the afternoon on practice day. In particular, I focus on rookies and teams that appear to be struggling, to ensure that they get out early and get connected. I also go look at the status board at the inspection table, and examine any partially completed inspection forms to identify teams with control system issues. I'll also get messages from the field pointing out teams that are having connectivity issues during practice.

Last year, at the two events I worked, we had a small handful of teams that first connected after the close of practice. Everyone was connected by the end of the evening of practice.

We had comments on our bumpers last year, so I know it happens.

Based on Frank's blog post, it's likely that the overall practice day schedule (pit open to close) will be roughly the same as last year. I hope that connectivity tests are allowed during the time prior to practice field open.

Koko Ed 06-12-2014 11:14

Re: [FRC Blog] Frank Answers Fridays: December 5, 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1411909)
Same here. Even if it isn't for a real match, the FTA, queuers, and LRI work together to make sure everyone has connected, even if nothing else is working on the robot. That doesn't mean teams won't screw something up before quals!

Many teams don't know what they're doing (the inspectors need something to do all Friday) but often blame the field (and the mostly experienced volunteers) for their robot isn't working even if it's mostly made of wood and the bumpers are hanging by the threads of fabric that barely passed inspection but by God we know what we're doing!


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