Fixtures for FRC
 

I know it is illegal to use none off the shelf components that you built before kickoff. Is it illegal to use pre-built fixtures for machining on cnc/manual equipment? I cant decide if it would be or not i fell like its a weird grey area...

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

Standard caveat: Chief Delphi isn't an official source of rule interpretations. Past rules may not be future rules.


By that definition, I wouldn't consider fixtures to be part of the ROBOT, and therefore not fall under the restrictions specified by R13.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I guess to use fixtures you would need pre designed parts and such... You could make fixtures that hold generic parts then change final sizing for the game.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

That would be pretty unfair IMO. Does that mean custom lathe stops have to be rebuit every year? It seems like a big inconvenience to smaller teams.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

If they are generic, just make the designs public and you can use them.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I would consider such fixtures to be similar to blueprints. In the past, blueprints have been considered to be part of the design--but if you happen to post them publicly, they're fair game to be used.

So if you were to put your design out, and then note that "oh, by the way, we found the following fixtures very helpful to have, here's the design and approximate fit points", I don't think anybody at all would have a problem.

If a rule has a blue box, that can very often be very helpful in understanding what the intent/violations of the rules are.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

The 2014 rules do not consider parts/structures used to create FABRICATED ITEMS to be FABRICATED ITEMS themselves and thus parts/structures used to create FABRICATED ITEMS are not subject to 2014 R13.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I know we have 2 fixtures that made machining our swerve really easy last year; pain in the butt to build but well worth the time to rebuild if necessary type of things.

I graduated but would be a nice thing to hand down.
I know any thing said on chief delphi is not official.
The designs were released before the end of last build season so that's not a problem...

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I think there are two kinds of fixtures we could be talking about here:

1) A fixture designed for a specific part. It is not useful for any other part. e.g. a plate used for locating cuts on tubing for an arm used in the 2014 game.

2) A fixture used for making repeated feature spanning multiple robots. It can be used in a variety of ways. e.g. a block with a locating pin and drill bushings to drill a straight pattern of 1/4" holes 1" apart.

Type 1 is VERY closely related to CAD drawings and designs in general. I wouldn't push that limit if I were you. Type 2 I think is fully in keeping with the rules.

Note: If you're not sure about it, post the design on CD, and then you can use it during the build season because it has been made equally available to all teams.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I am talking about a #1 here something designed and built to only ever build relevant in making that one part or something very very close to the original parts design.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

And I would assume that if you're building that part, you'll need said #1-type fixture, or some near equivalent. (Logical continuation)


If I wanted to play it safe, which I suspect you do, I would release some form of documentation--blueprint, CAD, etc.--along with the part that it goes to. WHERE you release it is up to you--CD is one option; FRC Designs might take it; you could just put it up on your team's website.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

We don't need it to make it and the parts i am talking about have been published else where forever ago thank you.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

My interpretation is that posting designs for something like a fixture would not allow you to reuse the fabricated fixture, use the design to build a new fixture yes.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

But the fixture wouldn't be part of the robot. The posted design would be of the part created using the fixture.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

Its a grey area i fell like its in the letter of the law but not the spirit.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

"Robot elements that are designed before kickoff are not permitted." (unless the design is published prior to kickoff)

The fixture is not an issue here. It won't be on your robot, so it is not subject to the robot rules.

The key aspect is the design. If the design of the part occurred before kickoff then you either need to publish the design in advance, or else go through the design process all over.

Note, however, that while you have to re-design the part... you can use your off-season experience and experiments to streamline the design process.

And yeah... that is a pretty grey area. I'd say just publish your design, build your fixture and then proceed with a clear conscience. Just remember that the Game Design Committee has been known to throw the occasional monkey wrench in to the work to ensure that no one ever gets too confident about their ability to use a pre-season design.

Again... the issue is not the fixture... it is the design.

Jason

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

Where were they published, out of curiosity?

Anyway, reflecting more on this topic, I think that you should have to release the design for it or for the part it is making. This is because it would be used in a manner like a blueprint would be, to make something. It's not a huge things to ask that teams release their fixtures for parts.

The spirit of the law is what matters here. It's more a of a question for Q&A.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I don't understand how it could be a grey area.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I had manufactured them last build season and was trying to figure out if the team could use the same fixtures to manufacture the newer swerve drive. The old swerve drive was published way bad when i can go find the file.(that is what the fixture was originally for)

If the team builds another swerve this year (i dont know if they will tell build season) and i know they have some changes they would want to make but as long as its close egnuff to the original the fixture will still work.

There will be changes to it no mater what post build season so the designs being re published is not a problem.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

Fixtures are fair game in that FIRST didn't mention them.

They also are merely a tool/process... common sense here.

There is no issue here, nothing needs to be disclosed or posted.

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

I agree with you regarding the fixtures... however if the fixtures are specific to one design and are built prior to build, then that implies (requires!) that the design of the part was completed prior to build season. Since that part will be on the robot, it is covered by the design rules.

It isn't whether the fixture is built before build season, but rather whether the part was designed before build season.

Jason

Re: Fixtures for FRC
 

Jason has hit the answer in both of his posts I think. The fixture in general is not part of the robot so realistically, robot rules do not apply. However, the chicken and egg conundrum does apply here in that the design of the part made easy by the fixture, came before the season starts.
I am still awed by teams who dedicate themselves to a design before the game is announced. I have stated this many times before, we do not use crab drive if the game doesn't benefit from it's use. We won't know until the game is announced ( a few short weeks away) and the team has had a chance to analyze how to play the game effectively.