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-   Rules/Strategy (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Fixtures for FRC (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131459)

Tyler2517 10-12-2014 20:58
Fixtures for FRC
 
I know it is illegal to use none off the shelf components that you built before kickoff. Is it illegal to use pre-built fixtures for machining on cnc/manual equipment? I cant decide if it would be or not i fell like its a weird grey area...

Knufire 10-12-2014 21:07
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Standard caveat: Chief Delphi isn't an official source of rule interpretations. Past rules may not be future rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC 2014 Manual: R13
ROBOT elements created before Kickoff are not permitted. ROBOT elements, including software, that are designed
before Kickoff are not permitted.
Exceptions include the following:
A. BUMPERS,
B. OPERATOR CONSOLE,
C. battery assemblies per R5-A, and
D. software and designs with source files publicly available prior to Kickoff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC 2014 Manual: Glossery
ROBOT: an electromechanical assembly built by an FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in AERIAL
ASSIST. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications,
control, mobility, and actuation. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play AERIAL
ASSIST (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would
not satisfy this definition).
By that definition, I wouldn't consider fixtures to be part of the ROBOT, and therefore not fall under the restrictions specified by R13.

Tyler2517 10-12-2014 21:20
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
I guess to use fixtures you would need pre designed parts and such... You could make fixtures that hold generic parts then change final sizing for the game.

asid61 10-12-2014 21:26
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
That would be pretty unfair IMO. Does that mean custom lathe stops have to be rebuit every year? It seems like a big inconvenience to smaller teams.

Mike Marandola 10-12-2014 21:32
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler2517 (Post 1412976)
I guess to use fixtures you would need pre designed parts and such... You could make fixtures that hold generic parts then change final sizing for the game.
If they are generic, just make the designs public and you can use them.

EricH 10-12-2014 21:35
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
I would consider such fixtures to be similar to blueprints. In the past, blueprints have been considered to be part of the design--but if you happen to post them publicly, they're fair game to be used.

So if you were to put your design out, and then note that "oh, by the way, we found the following fixtures very helpful to have, here's the design and approximate fit points", I don't think anybody at all would have a problem.

If a rule has a blue box, that can very often be very helpful in understanding what the intent/violations of the rules are.

cgmv123 10-12-2014 21:37
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
The 2014 rules do not consider parts/structures used to create FABRICATED ITEMS to be FABRICATED ITEMS themselves and thus parts/structures used to create FABRICATED ITEMS are not subject to 2014 R13.

Tyler2517 10-12-2014 21:43
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
I know we have 2 fixtures that made machining our swerve really easy last year; pain in the butt to build but well worth the time to rebuild if necessary type of things.

I graduated but would be a nice thing to hand down.
I know any thing said on chief delphi is not official.
The designs were released before the end of last build season so that's not a problem...

Orion.DeYoe 10-12-2014 22:04
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler2517 (Post 1412969)
I know it is illegal to use none off the shelf components that you built before kickoff. Is it illegal to use pre-built fixtures for machining on cnc/manual equipment? I cant decide if it would be or not i fell like its a weird grey area...
I think there are two kinds of fixtures we could be talking about here:

1) A fixture designed for a specific part. It is not useful for any other part. e.g. a plate used for locating cuts on tubing for an arm used in the 2014 game.

2) A fixture used for making repeated feature spanning multiple robots. It can be used in a variety of ways. e.g. a block with a locating pin and drill bushings to drill a straight pattern of 1/4" holes 1" apart.

Type 1 is VERY closely related to CAD drawings and designs in general. I wouldn't push that limit if I were you. Type 2 I think is fully in keeping with the rules.

Note: If you're not sure about it, post the design on CD, and then you can use it during the build season because it has been made equally available to all teams.

Tyler2517 10-12-2014 22:17
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion.DeYoe (Post 1413007)
I think there are two kinds of fixtures we could be talking about here:

1) A fixture designed for a specific part. It is not useful for any other part. e.g. a plate used for locating cuts on tubing for an arm used in the 2014 game.

2) A fixture used for making repeated feature spanning multiple robots. It can be used in a variety of ways. e.g. a block with a locating pin and drill bushings to drill a straight pattern of 1/4" holes 1" apart.

Type 1 is VERY closely related to CAD drawings and designs in general. I wouldn't push that limit if I were you. Type 2 I think is fully in keeping with the rules.

Note: If you're not sure about it, post the design on CD, and then you can use it during the build season because it has been made equally available to all teams.
I am talking about a #1 here something designed and built to only ever build relevant in making that one part or something very very close to the original parts design.

EricH 10-12-2014 22:25
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler2517 (Post 1413011)
I am talking about a #1 here something designed and built to only ever build relevant in making that one part or something very very close to the original parts design.
And I would assume that if you're building that part, you'll need said #1-type fixture, or some near equivalent. (Logical continuation)


If I wanted to play it safe, which I suspect you do, I would release some form of documentation--blueprint, CAD, etc.--along with the part that it goes to. WHERE you release it is up to you--CD is one option; FRC Designs might take it; you could just put it up on your team's website.

Tyler2517 10-12-2014 22:38
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
We don't need it to make it and the parts i am talking about have been published else where forever ago thank you.

Mr V 10-12-2014 23:53
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
My interpretation is that posting designs for something like a fixture would not allow you to reuse the fabricated fixture, use the design to build a new fixture yes.

Mike Marandola 11-12-2014 00:05
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1413047)
My interpretation is that posting designs for something like a fixture would not allow you to reuse the fabricated fixture, use the design to build a new fixture yes.
But the fixture wouldn't be part of the robot. The posted design would be of the part created using the fixture.

Tyler2517 11-12-2014 00:08
Re: Fixtures for FRC
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marandola (Post 1413048)
But the fixture wouldn't be part of the robot. The posted design would be of the parted created using the fixture.
Its a grey area i fell like its in the letter of the law but not the spirit.


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