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-   -   FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131473)

Cory 12-12-2014 13:54

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413466)
But we don't stand to gain any more traction into CMP than years before, and to claim so is silly.

And that is the way it should be...It would be completely unfair if you got spots you didn't proportionally deserve, given that CA, MN, and others are currently getting shortchanged spots.

It sucks that you guys started with more slots than you would be allowed under districts...leading to the perception you're losing slots. But fair is fair.

Oblarg 12-12-2014 13:59

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakxii (Post 1413573)
I think a better system would be to allow a district team to play in a regional but they only make wildcards. If a team is good enough to win a regional they should be able to make enough points to win a slot for CMPs in their districts, if not they won't steal a slot from a team utilizing the district rules.

This would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as not allowing teams to compete in both regionals and districts. I don't believe anyone would plan to pay the (significant) cost of attending a regional if they knew they'd have no chance of qualifying for championships at it.

rick.oliver 12-12-2014 14:57

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakxii (Post 1413573)
I think a better system would be to allow a district team to play in a regional but they only make wildcards. If a team is good enough to win a regional they should be able to make enough points to win a slot for CMPs in their districts, if not they won't steal a slot from a team utilizing the district rules.

Agree with the following adjustment, the wild card is awarded only if the District Team earns a Championship slot at their District Championship.

Alan Anderson 12-12-2014 15:25

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Did Indiana get shafted by the District allocation formula? Not even close. Indiana just didn't get enough new teams started this year to keep ahead of the rest of the country (and it looks like one has dropped out in the last week).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick.oliver (Post 1413604)
Agree with the following adjustment, the wild card is awarded only if the District Team earns a Championship slot at their District Championship.

The idea of retroactive wildcards seems very messy. I don't like it.

mklinker 12-12-2014 16:02

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 1413609)
Did Indiana get shafted by the District allocation formula? Not even close. Indiana just didn't get enough new teams started this year to keep ahead of the rest of the country.

To add to Alan's statement......Indiana shows a decline in registered teams for 2015 including:

Veteran teams not competing in 2015.....

3301 - a 2014 championship qualifier
4070
4545
4690
4927

Rookie teams added for 2015:
5402
5403
5484

Had we retained everyone and added the three rookie teams we would have gotten an extra slot.

AGPapa 12-12-2014 17:20

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1413584)
This would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as not allowing teams to compete in both regionals and districts. I don't believe anyone would plan to pay the (significant) cost of attending a regional if they knew they'd have no chance of qualifying for championships at it.

There are plenty of teams who attend regionals in far-away places that they don't hope to win. There are 5 MAR teams who were outside of the top 50 last year who are signed up for regionals this year. Four of those teams are going to Florida.

Additionally, plenty of teams sign up for 3rd District events that don't help qualification (although these are cheaper).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank;
Districts are able to send their allocated total, regardless of whether those teams earned those slots in the District or outside the District. Districts may add to this total by having pre-qualified teams or having teams selected from the waitlist. Allowing a District to not consider slots earned at Regionals in their allocations would lead to over-representation of teams from the District at Championship, and cause fairness concerns from a non-District team perspective, as non-District teams are not able in any way to earn those guaranteed in-District Championship slots.

And yet the regional teams still don't get this spot back. It is unfair for them either way! All this does is help qualify bad teams with deep pockets from the district regions.

Under the current system a bad team could win a weak regional, not earn enough points to qualify in-district, and still go to champs instead of a more deserving team with more points.

Imagine if this took place in a regional system. A team wins a weak regional elsewhere. Then, at their 'home' regional, they lose in the finals and one of the winners doesn't qualify. It makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottandme (Post 1360572)
It may be a stopgap, but the intent of that rule is still lost on me, and sets the stage for some problematic scenarios. I think "reverse-wildcard" is the best name for it.


mklinker 12-12-2014 18:40

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

TylerS 12-12-2014 18:46

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

At least in MAR we get two chairmans and two EI. Although that only brings it up to 8.

Thad House 12-12-2014 18:47

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

There are 3 Chairmans awards and 2 Engineering inspiration awards that are handed out, at least here in the PNW.

scottandme 12-12-2014 18:52

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AGPapa (Post 1413650)
And yet the regional teams still don't get this spot back. It is unfair for them either way! All this does is help qualify bad teams with deep pockets from the district regions.

Under the current system a bad team could win a weak regional, not earn enough points to qualify in-district, and still go to champs instead of a more deserving team with more points.

Imagine if this took place in a regional system. A team wins a weak regional elsewhere. Then, at their 'home' regional, they lose in the finals and one of the winners doesn't qualify. It makes no sense.

It's definitely an odd layout. District teams can "blackhole" regional slots, and then go on to generate additional slots for their own region even if they end up winning an award/event winner slot at DCMP (which used to be unable to be passed down - see 341 in 2012/2014, and 11 in 2014). MAR still got our full allocation of 18+3 slots in 2014 and managed to eat/blackhole 4 slots from outside regionals. Seems pretty silly.

So no matter what, districts will get exactly their allocation (plus the # of prequalified teams), while regionals need to pray that district teams don't come and eat one of their slots for no gain. It can also hurt the district, either by skewing distribution of slots, or by qualifying teams who woudn't have qualified after attending the DCMP.

Easy solutions is to:
1. Make district teams ineligible to compete for DCA/EI/RAS at regional events.
2. Open a wildcard slot (at the regional) if a district team wins a regional event.

Then:
A) Take a slot away from the district's "points" slots (reasonable if they have many), and allow that team to register for WCMP
OR
B) Prevent district teams from qualifying via winning a regional altogether, make them do it via their DCMP (possibly harsh, but solves the "winning a weak regional" issue).

District teams should be competing within their district for the award slots, full stop. The rest is pretty justifiable.

scottandme 12-12-2014 18:55

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

Seems like a copy/paste or typo error. Each region had different allocations of CA/EI/RAS and points slots last year.

See this: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Kickoff-Taping

So Indiana would likely have:

3 Winners
1 CA
1 EI
1 RAS
3/4 "Points" Slots

MrRoboSteve 12-12-2014 19:44

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiifi (Post 1413240)
This is more of an incentive to switch to districts in large areas.

For example, in MN we send a maximum of 24 teams to champs under the regional system. At each event we can qualify a Regional Chairman's Award Winner, Engineering Inspiration Award Winner, the winning alliance and possibly a Rookie All-Star. 6*4 = 24.

Using the numbers that Frank posted and assuming that all the teams are paid for, we would advance 35/39 teams if we were in districts.

192/2989 = .06765
.06765*570 = 38.56
.06765*510 = 34.5

Let me know if I did my math wrong.

Two things. Not sure if you are, but ND should be included in an MN region as most of their attendance is at MN regionals.

Secondly, more non-MN teams can emerge from MN regionals than the opposite.

Non-(MN, ND) teams at MN-hosted Regionals (total 27):
Lake Superior - 7
North Star - 7
10000 Lakes - 5
Northern Lights - 8

counterbalanced by (MN, ND) teams at non-MN hosted Regionals:

Wisconsin - 11
Others?

MrRiedemanJACC 12-12-2014 20:48

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Along these same lines, if the Michigan Championship stays the same size as last year, won't the District CMP for them almost be a formality on the way to Worlds? With possibly 68 slots, and 64 teams there, even accounting for awards of people that don't attend, thats pretty good odds.
There are 5 Michigan teams that are pre qualified (per my count 51, 67, 27, 469, and 74) This brings the range to 66-73 teams from Michigan at worlds depending on the total count. I can't wait to pass this on to my team!

I believe FIM owns at least three fields (they are running three events every week) Has anyone ever been to the deltaplex in Grand Rapids? How many fields and pits can fit?

cadandcookies 12-12-2014 21:04

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve (Post 1413703)
counterbalanced by (MN, ND) teams at non-MN hosted Regionals:

Wisconsin - 11
Others?

I know 2220 will be at Central Illinois this year. Not sure about others.

ThunderousPrime 12-12-2014 21:20

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413488)
I crunched some quick numbers and counted 56* listed regional events. Let's say at each regional, the six qualifiers (3 champs, RAS, RCA, EI) are all unique teams. 56*6=336 teams qualifying through Regionals.
The total of the District teams (using capacity 600) is 169.
There are 30 pre-qualified teams.
336+169+30= 535 total teams qualifying by merit.
That leaves 65 waitlist spaces. Nearly eleven percent of the CMP teams will be there because of waitlist?** That seems odd to me, and very high compared to last year (I seem to recall single-digit waitlist slots).
Did I forget something?

*I may have miscounted, but the fudge factor wouldn't be substantial.
**possibly even higher if events can't fill wildcard slots

You forgot the fact that at some regionals this year RAS will not be given out if there is no deserving rookie team. Its anyone's guess how many regionals will not hand out a RAS award at this point. The main point is there will be even more than your rough estimate of 65. Also I think that no RAS award will be more common than not using a wildcard on the finalist alliance.


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