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-   -   FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131473)

cgmv123 11-12-2014 15:18

FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
1 Attachment(s)
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...T-Championship

Quote:

We have determined FIRST Championship allocations for Districts as noted in this blog.

The relevant portion of the blog is this –

Districts will be getting the number of available Championship slots (total Championship capacity less the number of pre-qualified teams) proportional to their percentage representation in all FRC. As an example, if a District has 10% of the teams in FRC, they will be getting 10% of the available slots. This is similar to what was done last year, but this year, the allocation will be done on current season - 2015 - team counts.

We informed Districts some time ago that we would be taking a ‘snapshot’ of registered FRC teams who had paid their registration fee, both at the District and overall FRC level, on December 9, to determine FIRST Championship allocations. We set this date for a few reasons. We wanted to encourage Districts to work with their teams and funding agencies to get payments in by this date to ensure teams would receive their kits at Kickoff and not have to pay the extra money required to have kits shipped individually. When kits are shipped individually, of course, teams receive them after Kickoff, which means lost time on top of the additional team expense. Also, we thought Districts and teams would be very interested in where they stood regarding their allocations, and wanted to get them the information as soon as we could after giving a reasonable time for payments to be received.

The results are below. You will note we have included two values for one of the necessary figures – how many FRC teams we will actually be hosting at the FIRST Championship. That information will be coming out shortly. Instead, we have given a range. Actual district allocations will fall within this range.

Attachment 17578
(Click to zoom)

The number of ‘available’ slots at Championship is the total number of slots available minus the 30 active pre-qualified teams. District allocation is determined by District percentage of the number of available slots at Championship, not the number of total slots. Pre-qualified teams do not count against the District allocation, so essentially the Districts will be sending their allocation plus their pre-qualified teams. The complete list of pre-qualified teams can be found here.

Frank

PVCpirate 11-12-2014 15:22

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
"We're gonna need a bigger boat" - Michigan State Championship Planning Committee. :ahh:

Basel A 11-12-2014 15:26

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
540 is divisible by 6, but not 8.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1413222)
"We're gonna need a bigger boat" - Michigan State Championship Planning Committee. :ahh:

<rumours> Two fields and 114 teams seems boat enough. </rumours>

cgmv123 11-12-2014 15:29

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1413224)
540 is divisible by 6, but not 8.

The blog implies the number of teams at Championship will be between 540 and 600, not 540 or 600.

Peyton Yeung 11-12-2014 15:32

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Indiana is getting a slightly smaller number of slots than last year.

avanboekel 11-12-2014 15:37

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1413228)
Indiana is getting a slightly smaller number of slots than last year.

Right, but you won't have out of state teams competing with you. It will be exclusively Indiana teams.

Edit: Also, only 9 teams made champs from Indiana on merit last year. You guys should be even better represented this year. (45 pre-qualified).

Edit 2: looks like 868 got a wildcard slot at QC

Caleb Sykes 11-12-2014 15:47

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1413228)
Indiana is getting a slightly smaller number of slots than last year.

There were 10 Indiana teams that attended championships last year:
447
868
5010
4982
1501
45
135
3147
3301
5188

MechEng83 11-12-2014 15:56

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inkling16 (Post 1413234)
There were 10 Indiana teams that attended championships last year:
447
868
5010
4982
1501
45
135
3147
3301
5188

45 is an original/sustaining team, so they don't count against our quota.

If you look at it in a different light, if you combine the 2 regionals and their 12 qualification slots, but then eliminate the duplicate RCA, EI, and RAS (since the district will only have 1 of each), you get 9 unique spots. I had hoped for more slots, but the proportional representation seems fair.

ehochstein 11-12-2014 15:59

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
This is more of an incentive to switch to districts in large areas.

For example, in MN we send a maximum of 24 teams to champs under the regional system. At each event we can qualify a Regional Chairman's Award Winner, Engineering Inspiration Award Winner, the winning alliance and possibly a Rookie All-Star. 6*4 = 24.

Using the numbers that Frank posted and assuming that all the teams are paid for, we would advance 35/39 teams if we were in districts.

192/2989 = .06765
.06765*570 = 38.56
.06765*510 = 34.5

Let me know if I did my math wrong.

MamaSpoldi 11-12-2014 16:12

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung (Post 1413228)
Indiana is getting a slightly smaller number of slots than last year.

The same was true of the New England District last year based on the number of slots generated by the regional events that were being replaced by the district. Growing pains.

Overall, separate from the ability of any particular team to make it to Championships, the NE district teams got a good deal more play time than in previous years for a lower cost. (We had a good year and ended up running in more than 120 matches!) That is a win.

dellagd 11-12-2014 18:02

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Um, doesn't this mean there's probably going to be 6 divisions next year or is this old news? I know it was hinted at in the past. 600 in total vs 400 in total.

cgmv123 11-12-2014 18:08

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413293)
Um, doesn't this mean there's probably going to be 6 divisions next year or is this old news? I know it was hinted at in the past. There were 100 teams per division last year, so possibly up-ing to 600 in total...

No one ever said there's going to be 100 teams per division.

I still think they're going to find a way to do 8 divisions of 65~75 teams. Less teams per division means more matches per team. Plus, it avoids making Einstein too complicated.

dellagd 11-12-2014 18:11

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1413297)
No one ever said there's going to be 100 teams per division.

I still think they're going to find a way to do 8 divisions of 65~75 teams. Less teams per division means more matches per team. Plus, it avoids making Einstein too complicated.

Yeah, that makes much more sense. Would make Champs a lot more interesting too.

Regardless, +1 to FIRST for adding a ton more slots. Awesome to grow with the population of teams!

IndySam 11-12-2014 18:23

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
9/400=0.0225
9/540=.01667
Thant's more than a 25% reduction of slots for Indiana teams. I don't see how this is anything but bad for Indiana teams. The field at Champs finally increases and we see zero benefit from it. I'm not real happy.

cgmv123 11-12-2014 18:26

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1413305)
9/400=0.0225
9/540=.01667
Thant's more than a 25% reduction of slots for Indiana teams. I don't see how this is anything but bad for Indiana teams. The field at Champs finally increases and we see zero benefit from it. I'm not real happy.

Your slots are now exclusive to Indiana teams, whereas previously they could go to teams from outside Indiana.

AdamHeard 11-12-2014 18:28

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1413305)
9/400=0.0225
9/540=.01667
Thant's more than a 25% reduction of slots for Indiana teams. I don't see how this is anything but bad for Indiana teams. The field at Champs finally increases and we see zero benefit from it. I'm not real happy.

You're lumping apples and oranges together. You switching to district allocation and the increase in champs size are unrelated.

Many regions aren't getting any increase in champs slots with the increase from 400 to 600 (as they aren't adding any regionals).

CA is sending 6 more teams this year, but the percentage is going down because of the increase.

I don't think anyone in CA will complain though.

IndySam 11-12-2014 18:32

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1413307)
Your slots are now exclusive to Indiana teams, whereas previously they could go to teams from outside Indiana.

9 is the number of teams we had representing Indiana last year, with 3 regionals we had many more slots than that plus the regionals in Illinois and Ohio that were an easy drive for Indiana teams.

mklinker 11-12-2014 18:57

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1413305)
9/400=0.0225
9/540=.01667
Thant's more than a 25% reduction of slots for Indiana teams. I don't see how this is anything but bad for Indiana teams. The field at Champs finally increases and we see zero benefit from it. I'm not real happy.

We actually only earned a few slots in-state:

at Crossroads
135 Finalist
5188 Finalist/RAS

at Purdue
5010 RAS
3301 Finalist
(135 had already qualified by that time)

The remainder came from regionals outside the state of Indiana. Since none of the remaining slots were guaranteed we are actually gaining slots

Both Indiana contests were loaded with out of state teams last year. Crossroads was brutal!

indubitably 11-12-2014 21:08

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1413309)
9 is the number of teams we had representing Indiana last year, with 3 regionals we had many more slots than that plus the regionals in Illinois and Ohio that were an easy drive for Indiana teams.

There were only 8 teams from Indiana that qualified for champs last year (868 didn't qualify), that means at least one guaranteed extra slot with literally no chance of regressing.

IndySam 11-12-2014 21:32

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indubitably (Post 1413374)
There were only 8 teams from Indiana that qualified for champs last year (868 didn't qualify), that means at least one guaranteed extra slot with literally no chance of regressing.

In that case I sure bet that teams 16 and 340 are sure wondering who the second alliance captain on Newton was.

indubitably 11-12-2014 21:40

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1413383)
In that case I sure bet that teams 16 and 340 are sure wondering who the second alliance captain on Newton was.

They went presumably from the waitlist, they didn't have a regional win, EI, or Chairmans. They may have had a wild card however.

EDIT: It does look like they got a wild card at Queen City but assuming 600 teams like you did in your calculation, Indiana is still guaranteed an extra spot.

ThunderousPrime 11-12-2014 21:59

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indubitably (Post 1413389)
They went presumably from the waitlist, they didn't have a regional win, EI, or Chairmans. They may have had a wild card however.

EDIT: It does look like they got a wild card at Queen City but assuming 600 teams like you did in your calculation, Indiana is still guaranteed an extra spot.

868 definitely received a wild card invitation to Champs from Queen City. The Captain of the winning alliance, 16, had already won the Arkansas Regional so they generated a wild card spot to the finalist alliance from Queen City. The pecking order for a wildcard slot is Finalist Captain, Finalist 1st pick, Finalist 2nd, Finalist backup team; Pick 868 was the captain so they earned the wildcard spot.

brandon.cottrell 11-12-2014 22:29

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1413308)
CA is sending 6 more teams this year

Technically under certain circumstances, they could send more/less (Wildcards, teams winning multiple awards, etc).

nfhammes 12-12-2014 01:01

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1413222)
"We're gonna need a bigger boat" - Michigan State Championship Planning Committee. :ahh:

"You go to champs, you go to champs, everybody goes to champs!" - Michigan State Championship Planning Committee

Taylor 12-12-2014 07:15

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Please don't post items as truth on this forum if you do not know them to be so.
868 was DEFINITELY not waitlisted in to the CMP. They earned the right to compete as wildcards at QCR. They performed admirably at the World Championships, ranking second in their division and earning the Excellence in Engineering Award. They were also crowned champions at the Indiana State Championship.
Also, the notion of Indiana exclusivity doesn't hold water. Sure, teams from other areas may have "poached" qualifying spots in Indiana events, but there's nothing that kept Indiana from doing the same at outside events. See: QCR, SMR, CIR, MWR and others.
Don't get me wrong - I'm ecstatic that we're making the switch to districts. We get >50% more plays, close to home, which is the biggest boost to #MakeItLoud that we'll have ever seen to this point. It's also much better on the team pocketbook. But we don't stand to gain any more traction into CMP than years before, and to claim so is silly.

RufflesRidge 12-12-2014 07:52

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413466)
Sure, teams from other areas may have "poached" qualifying spots in Indiana events, but there's nothing that kept Indiana from doing the same at outside events. See: QCR, SMR, CIR, MWR and others.
...
It's also much better on the team pocketbook. But we don't stand to gain any more traction into CMP than years before, and to claim so is silly.

Except that you could still go to those outside events if you wanted to?

Hgree56 12-12-2014 08:11

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
As our Indiana friends from Cybercards have mentioned, "... doesn't hold water..."
Water game confirmed:D

tindleroot 12-12-2014 09:03

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RufflesRidge (Post 1413470)
Except that you could still go to those outside events if you wanted to?

Even though a district team can go to an outside regional and win, the win also takes up one of our 9-10 allotted slots. Yes, they may "poach" the spot from a regional team in that area, but it doesn't save Indiana a slot either. So, we can only send 9-10 teams + Team 45.

MamaSpoldi 12-12-2014 09:15

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RufflesRidge (Post 1413470)
Except that you could still go to those outside events if you wanted to?

Unless they have changed the rule, any district team winning a slot to Championships at a Regional will remove a slot from that district's allocation.

Taylor 12-12-2014 09:29

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
I crunched some quick numbers and counted 56* listed regional events. Let's say at each regional, the six qualifiers (3 champs, RAS, RCA, EI) are all unique teams. 56*6=336 teams qualifying through Regionals.
The total of the District teams (using capacity 600) is 169.
There are 30 pre-qualified teams.
336+169+30= 535 total teams qualifying by merit.
That leaves 65 waitlist spaces. Nearly eleven percent of the CMP teams will be there because of waitlist?** That seems odd to me, and very high compared to last year (I seem to recall single-digit waitlist slots).
Did I forget something?

*I may have miscounted, but the fudge factor wouldn't be substantial.
**possibly even higher if events can't fill wildcard slots

Nathan Streeter 12-12-2014 09:32

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi (Post 1413481)
Unless they have changed the rule, any district team winning a slot to Championships at a Regional will remove a slot from that district's allocation.

You understand the way it works, but I'm sure some people are still unsure and could misinterpret the way you said it...

If a New England team competes at an outside regional and qualifies for the World CMP from that event, they earn a slot. New England will still send the exact same number of teams (if you include this example team), all that happened was that example New England team guaranteed that they were in one of the slots.

dellagd 12-12-2014 09:43

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi (Post 1413481)
Unless they have changed the rule, any district team winning a slot to Championships at a Regional will remove a slot from that district's allocation.

I hope they did change it. What's the motivation for that anyway?

BrendanB 12-12-2014 09:48

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413491)
I hope they did change it. What's the motivation for that anyway?

Its to keep the number of slots a district sends consistent. Say for instance 20 district teams from New England sign up and compete at a regional and 10 of them earn a slot for the championship. Regardless of where those NE teams earned slots we are only sending 32-35 teams to the championship not 42-45 because 10 teams earned slots at regionals.

Those 10 NE teams in my example would still qualify for the Championship but it goes against the number of slots allotted to our district.

dellagd 12-12-2014 09:53

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1413496)
Its to keep the number of slots a district sends consistent. Say for instance 20 district teams from New England sign up and compete at a regional and 10 of them earn a slot for the championship. Regardless of where those NE teams earned slots we are only sending 32-35 teams to the championship not 42-45 because 10 teams earned slots at regionals.

Those 10 NE teams in my example would still qualify for the Championship but it goes against the number of slots allotted to our district.

But if a team were to win a spot in, say, Pittsburg and they were in the NE District system, the Pittsburg crowd would essentially lose a slot. Where does it go, to the waitlist?

BrendanB 12-12-2014 10:00

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413497)
But if a team were to win a spot in, say, Pittsburg and they were in the NE District system, the Pittsburg crowd would essentially lose a slot. Where does it go, to the waitlist?

You are correct Pittsburg does lose a slot which is the unfortunate scenario.

I'm not sure exactly where the slot goes between the waitlist and IIRC in the past there were more slots handed out between regionals & districts than there were spaces at the Championship however every year there are many teams who can't attend which sends a slot to the waitlist or eliminates it although I'm not entirely sure how it all works.

Lil' Lavery 12-12-2014 10:04

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413488)
I crunched some quick numbers and counted 56* listed regional events. Let's say at each regional, the six qualifiers (3 champs, RAS, RCA, EI) are all unique teams. 56*6=336 teams qualifying through Regionals.
The total of the District teams (using capacity 600) is 169.
There are 30 pre-qualified teams.
336+169+30= 535 total teams qualifying by merit.
That leaves 65 waitlist spaces. Nearly eleven percent of the CMP teams will be there because of waitlist?** That seems odd to me, and very high compared to last year (I seem to recall single-digit waitlist slots).
Did I forget something?

*I may have miscounted, but the fudge factor wouldn't be substantial.
**possibly even higher if events can't fill wildcard slots

65 spots is certainly much higher than they've pulled from the waitlist in the past couple years, but lower than they did for a long time at Championship. Open registration for Championship used to be a thing.

dellagd 12-12-2014 10:10

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Along these same lines, if the Michigan Championship stays the same size as last year, won't the District CMP for them almost be a formality on the way to Worlds? With possibly 68 slots, and 64 teams there, even accounting for awards of people that don't attend, thats pretty good odds.

Christopher149 12-12-2014 10:19

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413500)
Along these same lines, if the Michigan Championship stays the same size as last year, won't the District CMP for them almost be a formality on the way to Worlds? With possibly 68 slots, and 64 teams there, even accounting for awards of people that don't attend, thats pretty good odds.

Well, MSC moved to a different venue for this year (in Grand Rapids), which I can only assume means they plan to have more than 64 teams attend.

MamaSpoldi 12-12-2014 10:27

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413491)
I hope they did change it. What's the motivation for that anyway?

I asked this question on the Blog post and here is Frank's answer. I think he explains it very well. It seems like a fair approach especially while there is a mixture of Districts and Regionals.

Quote:

District Slot Totals

Submitted by Frank Merrick on Fri, 12/12/2014 - 09:56.
Districts are able to send their allocated total, regardless of whether those teams earned those slots in the District or outside the District. Districts may add to this total by having pre-qualified teams or having teams selected from the waitlist. Allowing a District to not consider slots earned at Regionals in their allocations would lead to over-representation of teams from the District at Championship, and cause fairness concerns from a non-District team perspective, as non-District teams are not able in any way to earn those guaranteed in-District Championship slots.

The_ShamWOW88 12-12-2014 10:38

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
I think this is just going to motivate more regions to go Districts.

nikeairmancurry 12-12-2014 12:01

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1413500)
Along these same lines, if the Michigan Championship stays the same size as last year, won't the District CMP for them almost be a formality on the way to Worlds? With possibly 68 slots, and 64 teams there, even accounting for awards of people that don't attend, thats pretty good odds.

Short answer: MSC Championship will be 100+ teams this year. It has been talked about for the past couple of season to expand because of the states growth. The move to Grand Rapids venue only proves this since the space allowed there is much greater than what was available at Eastern.

Long Answer: Wait for the FiM announcement... It should be soon..

Lil' Lavery 12-12-2014 12:43

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Why is your long answer shorter than your short answer? ;)

nikeairmancurry 12-12-2014 13:00

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1413549)
Why is your long answer shorter than your short answer? ;)

Because the long answer might really be long when it does come out lol.

Bob Steele 12-12-2014 13:24

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_ShamWOW88 (Post 1413512)
I think this is just going to motivate more regions to go Districts.

you think? I do too..

Drakxii 12-12-2014 13:25

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi (Post 1413510)
I asked this question on the Blog post and here is Frank's answer. I think he explains it very well. It seems like a fair approach especially while there is a mixture of Districts and Regionals.

For the Michigan district I would agree with Frank but for the other districts(specially the Indiana District) this ruling just brings it back to the regional system where having a season of sustain success might not be enough, because a lower ranked team in your district could go to a regional and have one good weekend which would knock a deserving team out of champs.

I think a better system would be to allow a district team to play in a regional but they only make wildcards. If a team is good enough to win a regional they should be able to make enough points to win a slot for CMPs in their districts, if not they won't steal a slot from a team utilizing the district rules.

Cory 12-12-2014 13:54

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413466)
But we don't stand to gain any more traction into CMP than years before, and to claim so is silly.

And that is the way it should be...It would be completely unfair if you got spots you didn't proportionally deserve, given that CA, MN, and others are currently getting shortchanged spots.

It sucks that you guys started with more slots than you would be allowed under districts...leading to the perception you're losing slots. But fair is fair.

Oblarg 12-12-2014 13:59

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakxii (Post 1413573)
I think a better system would be to allow a district team to play in a regional but they only make wildcards. If a team is good enough to win a regional they should be able to make enough points to win a slot for CMPs in their districts, if not they won't steal a slot from a team utilizing the district rules.

This would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as not allowing teams to compete in both regionals and districts. I don't believe anyone would plan to pay the (significant) cost of attending a regional if they knew they'd have no chance of qualifying for championships at it.

rick.oliver 12-12-2014 14:57

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakxii (Post 1413573)
I think a better system would be to allow a district team to play in a regional but they only make wildcards. If a team is good enough to win a regional they should be able to make enough points to win a slot for CMPs in their districts, if not they won't steal a slot from a team utilizing the district rules.

Agree with the following adjustment, the wild card is awarded only if the District Team earns a Championship slot at their District Championship.

Alan Anderson 12-12-2014 15:25

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Did Indiana get shafted by the District allocation formula? Not even close. Indiana just didn't get enough new teams started this year to keep ahead of the rest of the country (and it looks like one has dropped out in the last week).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick.oliver (Post 1413604)
Agree with the following adjustment, the wild card is awarded only if the District Team earns a Championship slot at their District Championship.

The idea of retroactive wildcards seems very messy. I don't like it.

mklinker 12-12-2014 16:02

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 1413609)
Did Indiana get shafted by the District allocation formula? Not even close. Indiana just didn't get enough new teams started this year to keep ahead of the rest of the country.

To add to Alan's statement......Indiana shows a decline in registered teams for 2015 including:

Veteran teams not competing in 2015.....

3301 - a 2014 championship qualifier
4070
4545
4690
4927

Rookie teams added for 2015:
5402
5403
5484

Had we retained everyone and added the three rookie teams we would have gotten an extra slot.

AGPapa 12-12-2014 17:20

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1413584)
This would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as not allowing teams to compete in both regionals and districts. I don't believe anyone would plan to pay the (significant) cost of attending a regional if they knew they'd have no chance of qualifying for championships at it.

There are plenty of teams who attend regionals in far-away places that they don't hope to win. There are 5 MAR teams who were outside of the top 50 last year who are signed up for regionals this year. Four of those teams are going to Florida.

Additionally, plenty of teams sign up for 3rd District events that don't help qualification (although these are cheaper).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank;
Districts are able to send their allocated total, regardless of whether those teams earned those slots in the District or outside the District. Districts may add to this total by having pre-qualified teams or having teams selected from the waitlist. Allowing a District to not consider slots earned at Regionals in their allocations would lead to over-representation of teams from the District at Championship, and cause fairness concerns from a non-District team perspective, as non-District teams are not able in any way to earn those guaranteed in-District Championship slots.

And yet the regional teams still don't get this spot back. It is unfair for them either way! All this does is help qualify bad teams with deep pockets from the district regions.

Under the current system a bad team could win a weak regional, not earn enough points to qualify in-district, and still go to champs instead of a more deserving team with more points.

Imagine if this took place in a regional system. A team wins a weak regional elsewhere. Then, at their 'home' regional, they lose in the finals and one of the winners doesn't qualify. It makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottandme (Post 1360572)
It may be a stopgap, but the intent of that rule is still lost on me, and sets the stage for some problematic scenarios. I think "reverse-wildcard" is the best name for it.


mklinker 12-12-2014 18:40

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

TylerS 12-12-2014 18:46

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

At least in MAR we get two chairmans and two EI. Although that only brings it up to 8.

Thad House 12-12-2014 18:47

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

There are 3 Chairmans awards and 2 Engineering inspiration awards that are handed out, at least here in the PNW.

scottandme 12-12-2014 18:52

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AGPapa (Post 1413650)
And yet the regional teams still don't get this spot back. It is unfair for them either way! All this does is help qualify bad teams with deep pockets from the district regions.

Under the current system a bad team could win a weak regional, not earn enough points to qualify in-district, and still go to champs instead of a more deserving team with more points.

Imagine if this took place in a regional system. A team wins a weak regional elsewhere. Then, at their 'home' regional, they lose in the finals and one of the winners doesn't qualify. It makes no sense.

It's definitely an odd layout. District teams can "blackhole" regional slots, and then go on to generate additional slots for their own region even if they end up winning an award/event winner slot at DCMP (which used to be unable to be passed down - see 341 in 2012/2014, and 11 in 2014). MAR still got our full allocation of 18+3 slots in 2014 and managed to eat/blackhole 4 slots from outside regionals. Seems pretty silly.

So no matter what, districts will get exactly their allocation (plus the # of prequalified teams), while regionals need to pray that district teams don't come and eat one of their slots for no gain. It can also hurt the district, either by skewing distribution of slots, or by qualifying teams who woudn't have qualified after attending the DCMP.

Easy solutions is to:
1. Make district teams ineligible to compete for DCA/EI/RAS at regional events.
2. Open a wildcard slot (at the regional) if a district team wins a regional event.

Then:
A) Take a slot away from the district's "points" slots (reasonable if they have many), and allow that team to register for WCMP
OR
B) Prevent district teams from qualifying via winning a regional altogether, make them do it via their DCMP (possibly harsh, but solves the "winning a weak regional" issue).

District teams should be competing within their district for the award slots, full stop. The rest is pretty justifiable.

scottandme 12-12-2014 18:55

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1413672)
Could someone please explain this statement from the FIRST website?

"Top Ranked teams at the 2015 District Championships that are not one of the 9 Merit Based Teams."

Chairmen's Award
Engineering Inspiration
Rookie All Star
Winning Alliance (3 spots)

Where do the other three merit spots come from?

If this is correct there will be no open slots in Indiana after merit slots are awarded.

Seems like a copy/paste or typo error. Each region had different allocations of CA/EI/RAS and points slots last year.

See this: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Kickoff-Taping

So Indiana would likely have:

3 Winners
1 CA
1 EI
1 RAS
3/4 "Points" Slots

MrRoboSteve 12-12-2014 19:44

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiifi (Post 1413240)
This is more of an incentive to switch to districts in large areas.

For example, in MN we send a maximum of 24 teams to champs under the regional system. At each event we can qualify a Regional Chairman's Award Winner, Engineering Inspiration Award Winner, the winning alliance and possibly a Rookie All-Star. 6*4 = 24.

Using the numbers that Frank posted and assuming that all the teams are paid for, we would advance 35/39 teams if we were in districts.

192/2989 = .06765
.06765*570 = 38.56
.06765*510 = 34.5

Let me know if I did my math wrong.

Two things. Not sure if you are, but ND should be included in an MN region as most of their attendance is at MN regionals.

Secondly, more non-MN teams can emerge from MN regionals than the opposite.

Non-(MN, ND) teams at MN-hosted Regionals (total 27):
Lake Superior - 7
North Star - 7
10000 Lakes - 5
Northern Lights - 8

counterbalanced by (MN, ND) teams at non-MN hosted Regionals:

Wisconsin - 11
Others?

MrRiedemanJACC 12-12-2014 20:48

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Along these same lines, if the Michigan Championship stays the same size as last year, won't the District CMP for them almost be a formality on the way to Worlds? With possibly 68 slots, and 64 teams there, even accounting for awards of people that don't attend, thats pretty good odds.
There are 5 Michigan teams that are pre qualified (per my count 51, 67, 27, 469, and 74) This brings the range to 66-73 teams from Michigan at worlds depending on the total count. I can't wait to pass this on to my team!

I believe FIM owns at least three fields (they are running three events every week) Has anyone ever been to the deltaplex in Grand Rapids? How many fields and pits can fit?

cadandcookies 12-12-2014 21:04

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve (Post 1413703)
counterbalanced by (MN, ND) teams at non-MN hosted Regionals:

Wisconsin - 11
Others?

I know 2220 will be at Central Illinois this year. Not sure about others.

ThunderousPrime 12-12-2014 21:20

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1413488)
I crunched some quick numbers and counted 56* listed regional events. Let's say at each regional, the six qualifiers (3 champs, RAS, RCA, EI) are all unique teams. 56*6=336 teams qualifying through Regionals.
The total of the District teams (using capacity 600) is 169.
There are 30 pre-qualified teams.
336+169+30= 535 total teams qualifying by merit.
That leaves 65 waitlist spaces. Nearly eleven percent of the CMP teams will be there because of waitlist?** That seems odd to me, and very high compared to last year (I seem to recall single-digit waitlist slots).
Did I forget something?

*I may have miscounted, but the fudge factor wouldn't be substantial.
**possibly even higher if events can't fill wildcard slots

You forgot the fact that at some regionals this year RAS will not be given out if there is no deserving rookie team. Its anyone's guess how many regionals will not hand out a RAS award at this point. The main point is there will be even more than your rough estimate of 65. Also I think that no RAS award will be more common than not using a wildcard on the finalist alliance.

MrBasse 12-12-2014 21:34

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRiedemanJACC (Post 1413723)
I believe FIM owns at least three fields (they are running three events every week) Has anyone ever been to the deltaplex in Grand Rapids? How many fields and pits can fit?

It can fit two fields for sure in the arena, then there is room for an enormous amount of pit space and possibly a full practice field in the two convention halls. There is room in those two halls for several hundred display tables at the various shows that I have attended there.

BJT 12-12-2014 21:59

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1413728)
I know 2220 will be at Central Illinois this year. Not sure about others.

2512, 4009, and 876 will be there with you.

cadandcookies 12-12-2014 22:21

Re: FRC Blog - District Slot Allocations at 2015 FIRST Championship
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1413728)
I know 2220 will be at Central Illinois this year. Not sure about others.

So, after posting this, I decided to check out where MN teams were competing. Using Ed Law's spreadsheet, I found all the MN teams, then went through the regionals to find how many teams were competing where. Here's a small breakdown on that, if anyone is interested:

Out of the 191 teams listed, MN teams are competing at exactly 6 regionals:
Code:

Lake Superior    : 55
Northern Lights  : 50
Central Illinois  : 3
Wisconsin        : 10
10K Lakes        : 58
North Star        : 52

Also looking at the number of regionals MN teams are competing at, there is 1 team competing at 3 regionals, 15 teams competing at 2 regionals, and the rest are competing at a single regional.

Amusingly, this shows that even if MN teams took up all available champs qualifications slots at each of the tournaments they attended, the state would still only send 33 teams, almost a full regional-worth less than we would under a proportional district scheme. As it is, I'd anticipate it to be more around 20-25 teams sent, making it probably the 8th or 9th year in a row that MN has been underrepresented at Championships :P

EDIT: Here are the numbers with ND:

Code:

Lake Superior    : 56
Northern Lights  : 52
Central Illinois  : 4
Wisconsin        : 11
10K Lakes        : 58
North Star        : 52

1 team with 3 regionals
17 teams with 2 regionals
176 teams with 1 regional


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