Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I can't seem to find the drawings for the new plastic hub, but is there a way to use colsons with dead axles?

- Sunny G.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

These have been available since at least last year: http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/mo...sonhubs-g.html

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

In most of the pages, alot of the links to the individual parts give 404 errors. Specifically I'm looking at the ones in the WCP gearboxes, but I see a few others as well.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

thanks found it... bummer no STEP file.. awww... hopefully soon!

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I wonder how well the new mecanum wheels will hold up under competition use.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

1/2" Hex coupler is also new, I missed this the first time through.

Does it use 8-32 or 4-40s? The product page seems to list both.

This would have been nice this year, we have two couplers where the hex shaft has spun in them and pretty much are never coming apart now.

Also they are selling wire now.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Edit: Nevermind, I figured out what was different.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

What happened to the Robot Direction arrow Paul Copioli talked about at waterloo? It was so teams don't forget which end goes forward in auto. Link of the idea here.

http://youtu.be/94UGXIq6jUA?t=4m11s

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I think the 4-40s are a typo. The drawing lists 8-32s.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

1.625" Colsons with a 1/2" hex bore. And 2.5" colsons too.
It's like a dream come true. Time to update some CAD files.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm liking this new stuff. Well done.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Any products that didn't include CAD files or drawings (where applicable) will be updated in the next day or two. But since you brought it up... the plastic VersaHub drawing and CAD file have been added :)

Many of these links did not get updated in time for launch to coincide with our improved product organization. Rest assured - they will be cleaned up soon.

Those are actually #4-40 x 0.375 socket head bolts. Drawing will be updated shortly - sorry for the confusion.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Anyone know if we need to do separate orders for the new motor controllers in order to have any other parts delivered on time?

I ask because Andy Mark's site recommends that you put SPs/SRX's in a different order than you would other materials.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Just realized WCP has some cool new things as well specifically on their website:

-GT2 timing pullies for RS/BAG motors
-32 DP gears for both RS/BAG motors and 3/8" hex bore
-Pneumatic solenoid and manifold setups


Definitely Looking Forward to using the 32 DP gears on intakes and other smaller gearboxes.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Wow, some great products here, any official word on the steel shifter shafts for the ball shifters, this has been hinted at a couple of times but I see no mention of it today...

Also, any chance we can get some official weights (and ETAs) on the new colsons, thats what should make them more appealing.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Please tell me these will be available on Vex Pro Canada. WCP shipping to canada is insanely pricey

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I notice the 7:1 and 9:1 VP reductions are back in stock. Have the issues with them been fixed?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

These won't be but if you email us we can ship usps so it's much cheaper.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

If only we could get Colsons with a 3/8" round bore, to remachine for 7/16" hex. Well, there's always next year to hope for....

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Yes, these have actually been back in stock for awhile now.

-Aren

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm not able to access the WCP gearboxes, either on VexPro or the WCP website (which is down). Anyone know when we might be able to place orders on gearboxes?

Just put in my order for the new Talons. We will be evaluating the other stuff over the next few days, but we just couldn't wait on the motor controllers and risk having them sell out.

THOSE COLSONS! Oh man, when those become available you better believe we will snatch those up.

Thanks to everyone at Vex for the fab new products. Well done, again.
:D :D :D

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Great, Thanks

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Site should be up:

http://www.isup.me/wcproducts.net

Might have to clear your cache.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

David,

At this point in time why don't you just switch to ThunderHex? As it functionally does the same as 7/16 the way you have it setup.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

New products are looking good, but I have a few questions:

1. Will the new products also be available through therobotspace.com? No sign of any updates on their website yet.

2. The concept of the Thunderhex shaft is great, but is the entire shaft hollow? Have you done any bending tests on it? I suspect there will be many bent axles as teams push these axles further out in cantilevered designs with wider wheel options.

3. The lower cost, and presumably lighter, plastic Versablock is a great new addition, but there is a lack of information about it currently. Does it also feature the 1/16" offset to allow for easy creation of a dropped center drive? Is it still intended to be used with the WCP Cam? The notches on the edges are gone. Does the 1+2 bolt configuration provide sufficient clamping to prevent twisting when under tension from a belt or chain?

Thanks for the feedback and continual dedication to improving the competition.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

yup. that did it. :o

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Is this a game hint that I see at the bottom of the New for 2015 page? :p

(emphasis added)

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Modeling a round tube conservatively at .5x.201 I get 97.4% the bending stength.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

SECRET ENDGAME CONFIRMED

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'll take my axles without a hole through them, and my R8-2RS bearings are 1/3 the cost of a "Thunderhex" bearing, and are an industry-standard size. ;-)

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Couple of notes after watching a couple of videos:

1. Holy crap, they just took the least expensive COTS wheel setup in FRC and found a way to make it less expensive
2. I like that there are way more examples of VersaFrame usage in the marketing material than last year
3. The new CIM mounts are my #1 pick for new innovative "thing" so far this year - the precision gear alignment while maintaining flexibility and modularity is pretty insane

Now onward to cost/benefit and "bleeding edge tech" risk analyses :D

Thanks for the new products VEX!

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

All I have to say is who needs a machine shop! Way to go VEX. So many teams are going to benefit from these configurable parts. Outstanding imagination and innovation!

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The VersaFrame/Planetary/Chassis products have really expanded into a well-designed and flexible parts ecosystem, all at a fraction of the cost (not to mention weight) of industrial COTS framing systems. Teams would be wise to take advantage of it.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

From the cad model, it looks like about .079" from centerline. That gives you .15" total drop

Material at the center of a shaft gives very strength in bending or torque. That is why things like drive shafts & airplane wings are often hollow.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

To any Vex employees:

If we are ordering new Talons or Victors, should we put in a separate order for additional parts if we want to have the additional parts delivered quickly? I know the Victors/Talons aren't shipping immediately I don't want the rest of my order waiting for them :yikes:

I ask because Andy Mark's site recommends that you put SPs/SRX's in a different order than you would other materials.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The hole barely weakens the shaft...

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I like the new Thunderhex except for the hole in the middle. We usually use a #10 bolt in the end of shafts to retain wheels ect.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

While a bit annoying you could tap it for 1/4-20 instead

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I imagine the #10 clearance hole can be tapped to 1/4-20 and now you could run a #10 bolt all the way through the shaft as well if you wanted.

I am huge fan of the hole in the middle. Thunderhex can replace the AM Churro tubes in a lot of standoff and spacer applications.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The Robot Space will be updating our web site over the next week. We have already placed our 2015 Stocking order and should have everything in prior to Kickoff.

Please follow us on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/TheRobotSpace) and FB (http://www.facebook.com/TheRobotSpace) for updates.

Thanks,
Clinton

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Anyone from Vex able to comment on the weight savings of the new Colsons compared to the previous live axle hub assembly teams used last year more specifically on the 4 x 1 1/2 wheels?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Any word on the timing of the availability of Thunderhex? We have been toying with the idea of hex for a while, and this solves some of our concerns. However, it's certainly not worth it for this season if we're not going to receive the shaft and/or bearings after week 2.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Yup we will just have to switch to 1/4-20, if our coach decides to buy some. The bolt all the way through isn't practical for a lot of our applications, we would need to stock a number of different fairly long lengths. The other issue is that I like having the "other" end of the shaft retained which would not happen with a through bolt.

For stand offs where we do run a through bolt it will be convient but in many of those applications we still did the tap both ends for #10 so that one side, again so that one side will be retained when doing repairs.

I'm not against the hole in the middle, in fact I think it is great as it will help teams that don't have a lathe. I'd just prefer that it was sized to tap for #10 or for a #10 thread forming bolt, since that is what we use everywhere and we haven't used 1/4-20 in a while.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

No kidding! I almost don't want to design/machine any custom parts this season, this looks way more efficient. The new gearboxes and brackets that integrate into the VersaFrame really round out the system. Very clever stuff.

Is there a planned abundance of the VersaFrame stock tubing this year? I recall the shortage last year, and expect these things to start flying off the shelves after more teams realize how useful they are.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm Mr #10. It's my favorite fastener, and we've used it forever.

That being said, the more COTS teams are in 1/4-20 land. This makes sense.

Being Mr #10, I'm STOKED about the hole as we'd never use a bolt to retain the items on a shaft... but these will make great heavy duty standoffs with the hole already drilled.

ThunderHex is my favorite new product, and I think they did it perfectly. Now time for 3/8" thunderhex next year ;)

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

shh You are letting the cat out of the bag. Now I really need to get an order out for those before they sell out...

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm glad other people also have nerdy feelings for their fasteners.

Those heavy duty standoffs could also be dead axles used with ThunderHex bearings. That could be pretty sweet in some situations.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm curious as to why you'd never use a bolt to retain items on the end of a shaft? A big reason is that it is easier to get students competent in using a bolt and Allen wrench that using snap rings and e-clips. It is also easier to get students competent in tapping the end of a shaft than cutting a groove for an e-clip or snap ring on the lathe. I don't like shaft collars because they are more expensive to purchase and add length/width that you don't need with a bolt in the end.

I'm also not a big fan of the though hole for stand offs and prefer a bolt in each end. If you have to remove what ever the stand off is holding you often just need to remove one side. So if one side is still bolted then you just place the removed piece back on and bolt it on. With a through bolt the stand offs are then loose and you have to put align them all when putting it back in place and you need two tools to reassemble. Yes during initial assembly you'll need two tools but in repairs during the heat of competition putting a bolt back in one side is quicker.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

When you bolt all the way through a spacer you're able to make a much stiffer assembly since you can preload the bolt.

Here is a good description the concept.

You're right that a bolt on each end is often more convenient and it really just depends on what your goals are.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

We have no issues teaching kids to do either of these... It's standard practice on our team and kids do both all the time.

We like through hole for high load standoffs, and using a nut. The chance of stripping aluminum threads out, or wearing them out through reuse, bugs us. I know that's not the greatest reasoning. Also, it's usually easier for really buried things to get a wrench in from the side on the nut, rather than a tool in on a bolt head.

You also get better clamping force, and to be honest I like reducing the number of tapped holes as, "Aint nobody got time for that" when you build in the qty we do.

Vex clearly is supporting 1/4-20 as they had to pick a size... I totally agree with that decision for the kind of teams that need this stuff most.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Sorry, uninformed NEM question here:
What does the ThunderHex do that Churro doesn't? I see that the aluminum is 7075 rather than 6005, which I presume makes it stiffer. But why is it 2x the price? Is that just the nature of the alloy?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

(meandering a bit off topic)

For those curious why the hole makes little difference to the bending strength, check out the list of second moment area of inertias for different shapes. For two axles of the same diameter, the second moment area of inertia is proportional to the amount of bending load it can withstand. The r^4 term is what makes the small hole have little effect on the bending strength of the axle.

My napkin calculations put the ThunderHex axle (with the hole) at about 46% stronger (in bending) than a solid 7/16" hex shaft of the same material.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I guess it must be the students on our team but we don't haven't had that many that are interested in using the lathe let alone becoming competent in using it. We do however typically have one student that quickly decides it is his or her favorite machine and does become quite competent. Of course when you need something right now that student seems to be absent that day.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

As far as stiffness goes, All aluminum has pretty much the same stiffness. Stiffness is based on Young's modulus, shape & doesn't change much with alloying & heat treatment. Strength is a completely different story.

The concern I would have would be the difference in torque transfer of a rounded off hex & would the shape spin in a round bearing, making it a bushing. I have not looked very closely at this so it is just a concern, not an known issue.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Churro tubes aren't designed to be used as axles. I've seen a few teams do it but they often bend them. Thunderhex has the strength of the VEXpro hex shaft but also have the through-hole and rounded corners to be used in a specific round bearing (13mm).

We used VEXpro tube axles last year for through-bolted spacers and Churro tubes for tapped standoffs. A few times we had to drill and tap hex shaft when the churro tubes weren't strong enough for our application. The thunderhex should fix this. We can also use #10 through bolts with the Thunderhex and since we are also a #!0 team that will make some things easier.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Cool. What about it gives it the added strength? Is it the cross-section geometry? The alloy? The black anodizing?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The alloy, 7705 is a zinc alloy and in general 7xxx series aluminum (zinc alloys) will be stronger than the 6xxx series which are magnesium - silicon alloys.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

To any Vex employees:

If we are ordering new Talons or Victors, should we put in a separate order for additional parts if we want to have the additional parts delivered quickly? I know the Victors/Talons aren't shipping immediately I don't want the rest of my order waiting for them. :yikes:

I ask because Andy Mark's site recommends that you put SPs/SRX's in a different order than you would other materials.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

What are people getting more of, talons or victors? I'm going to assume mostly victors because of the price but I could be wrong. Also, what helped you decide what to get.
-Ronnie

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

It's definitely the black ano!

No jk. It's mostly the alloy. 7075 has over twice the tensile strength of 6005. (Based off of strengths I found here http://alcobrametals.com/guides/aluminum) I think the cross-section of the thunderhex is also stronger but that probably has a smaller impact than the alloy.

(And Allen beat me to it...)

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

You probably should just call VEX sales, instead of reposting the same thing. They will help you out.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The Talon SRX and the Victor SP are mostly the same product - they were designed in tandem by CTR and VEX. The only difference is that the Talon SRX is CAN capable, whereas the Victor SP only uses PWM. As a result the Talon SRX is negligibly larger, and costs about $20 more. For those who do not use CAN in their electronics, the Victor SP is probably their best bet, saving them $20 per controller, and for those who do use CAN, the Talon SRX is a godsend compared to the Jaguar, and well worth the money.

EDIT: Michael Hill covers some aspects of the Talon SRX that I had missed earlier in his post right after mine.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The SRX also has SPI, USART, and on-board closed-loop PID control

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I was unaware. You learn something new every day. Thank you for the additional info, Michael.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

As well as a master-slave mode that the Victor doesn't.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Regarding the new 1/2" hex VersaHub, is the new one just smaller and lighter and less expensive or is there something more meaningfully different?

PN 217-4009 - new product
PN 217-2592 - older product
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/mo...versahubs.html

If I recall, on the old ones the hex was not consistently clocked relative to the bolt pattern, so it wasn't possible to use two of them on one wheel. Instead you'd need to use one plus a hex bearing held in place with screws. I'm hoping this is what is different and the new ones, so that two can be used on a wheel and the hex flats all line up.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Hmm... do I spy a barrage? :rolleyes:

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The new one is plastic so it's designed for lighter duty applications. At one point VEX started making all their Hex hubs aligned to the versakeys and I'm betting they still are, the plastic ones will definitely be aligned since they are molded. At one point they had to rotary broach some of their plain bore hubs to meet demand and those weren't aligned.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I guess I didn't look close enough. Never having purchased one I assumed all of these were plastic.

There does not appear to be a "light duty" designation for the plastic hub. Do you have any information on it's limitations? I'm wondering if using a pair of these on a 4" Traction Wheel would be an acceptable setup for a drivetrain.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I would say that the original aluminum would be better for drivetrain and other high load applications. These new plastic ones would work well in things like intakes where there isn't a lot of torque trying to break the hub apart.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

You can always tap for a #10-32 heli-coil, threaded insert. I'm a #10 and #8 guy. If I had to use 1/4", it would be 1/4-28.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Why the fine threads?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Personally, I'd be less worried about breaking the hub apart and more worried about gradual wear along the corners of the hubs leading to backlash.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I agree, that is likely to be the first sign of a problem with these hubs. We used some .09 5052 versa hex hub stand ins on our practice bot and for part of an event on our competition bot and we rounded some of the corners and started getting a lot of backlash.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

If that is the case, I would assume that it could be a problem on the colsons with the molded hex hubs as well.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I'm confident that VEX did their testing. I was just saying that I would think that would be the initial failure mode over completely breaking the hub. I could also be very wrong.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Just a habit of working on aircraft. The robots are vibration machines, so any little advantage to screws backing-out I will take. We have quite a few fastener stores in the area, so access to fine thread fasteners is not an issue.

That being said, we haven't used a 1/4" fastener on the robot in quite sometime - maybe a COTS component that required. We have used #10 rivet nuts in 1/4" holes in the past in the KOP frames.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

An advantage to 1/4"-20 is that more teams that I know of stock it over 1/4"-28. Something to consider as well.
I don't think we have 1/4"-28 screws, just tons of 1/4-20", 10-32, 8-32, 6-32, and some metric.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Every single FRC team in the last 10+ years has had at least two 1/4-28 nuts on their robot.

Arguably the most standard FRC fasteners next to a philips head #6-32.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

True, unless one student removes them and another replaces them with 1/4-20 nuts. Now that team has intermittent electrical problems as well.:mad:

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

1/4-28's? Where do we use these commonly in FRC? Bimba cylinders are available with this thread, but that's all I can think of for common parts...

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

It's the nuts on the breaker.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Main breaker

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The thing about ThunderHex is that while you can buy ThunderHex stock to use with it, you can make any hex shaft a ThunderHex compatible shaft just by turning it down a little on a lathe. You're not locked in to using Vex's shaft.

I'm excited about being able to do stepped shafts in one operation, using round bearings of varying sizes everywhere. Instead of making 1/2 hex, 1/2 round, 7/16 hex combo shafts, you could do 1/2" hex on one side and ThunderHex through the middle to the other side.

The bearings do cost more, yeah, but I'd pay $16 more per robot to avoid having to make stepped shafts, custom 7/16" hex broached sprockets, etc.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I have found that Nylock nuts and bolts do not vibrate loose in FRC applications and if there is a situation where a Nylock is not suitable then we use medium strength thread locker. Once I introduced thread locker to the team there have not been any instances were a fastener came loose.

Where to you find rivet nuts that go in a 1/4" hole all the ones I've ever found use the annoying 19/64" bit. Because it is a less than common size we keep it in the kit with the rivet nuts so it is there when we need it.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Whoops. I didn't know that electrical used those.
I stand corrected.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

People have touted the alloy, but the cross-section geometry plays a huge role here as well. The shape of the churro is particularly poor at transmitting torsional loads.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Yes, we have to drill the holes up to 19/64 as well. What I was trying to say is that even though the KOP chassis encourages 1/4" hardware, we still don't use it.

On a side note, it is always nice to keep a drill index on hand for things like this; but we to keep a drill bit or two in the bag with the riv-nut tool.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Amen. The team's really excited to finally be able to get all we wanted out of CAN* with all those extra features on the Talon now.

*In an actually reliable way :D

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

There's always the situation where a new team member uses the #10 nylock nut on the #8 machine screw. Kind of seems to work, if you don't pay attention to tightening it completely.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Yes, this would be helpful for our sales team as they're processing orders. Thank you for asking.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

One of our students did that back in 2006 with a bunch of the old IFI sheet metal wheels. That didn't work out so well until we figured it out. The sprockets all started falling off.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Official weights for all of the new VEXpro Colson wheels have been updated on their product page. Thank you for your patience, and sorry for not having those up at the initial launch :)

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

I put in a mixed order. Hopefully it will be OK ???

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Ah, sorry. I called earlier today and the representative recommended that I put everything in one order. I am perfectly willing to split them, but I think the order is already fully in.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The output shafts and shifting dogs for the WCP DS gearbox seem to be dead links right now. Do you still plan to sell the output shafts and shifting dogs separately?

Also, can the shorter steel shaft that fits inside the gearbox output shaft be purchased separately too?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

What wire gauge and twist count is used for the CAN wires on the Talon SRX?

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Used, or recommended by the developer?

While beta testing, our team used 20 AWG green and yellow purchased on separate spools (e.g., McMaster 8054T14) and twisted pairs ourselves with a vise and drill, to about 20 twists per foot. So far no issues. We twisted to get good handling/routing, not to solve an EMI problem.

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

The wire spec is 20AWG per the drawing on the site, the twist spec we use is 1 revolution per 14-21mm.

-Aren

Re: VEXpro 2015 Product line launch
 

Thanks for the information!

If the recommended wire and wire that is used are different, I would like to know both. I am assuming that that VEX Pro / CTRE would use the wire what they recommend; but, I can understand why they may be different.