Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Looks like there will still be 6 teams per match at least - from the 2015 administrative manual:

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

hmmm...They did use the same music as the FLL promo video, "Get in the Game"

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Or this could be the last year of FRC :(

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

That's NOT floor. That's the inside of the side rail, where the side panels rest against the rail.


Folks, Frank (and the recycling bin) are on the near side of a field, near midfield or the "near" border. The bin is raised up a bit, I'll assume on a small table, or is a tall bin. The field rail in view is not the near side rail; it is the FAR side rail, inside of the field view. Note the gate ramp visible in the bottom right corner of the linked picture: It's down, obscuring the rest of the bottom rail from view. (You can see the "rest" that's used when it's up quite clearly--the "rest" is sticking up.) See the attachment for the general arrangement: orange is camera, blue is the bin, black dot is Frank, and the black box is the field border.

Now, I'm going to guess that the field section shown (a small one) is not representative of the 2015 FRC game. I'm guessing that they used an empty field--all the stuff that was on or in that field can change (and does, year-to-year).

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Good. There would be no way to handle more than 6 robots. I just hope it doesn't go to 3 alliances at a time. They would have to re-write the rules for eliminations. The change can't be to something other than 3 on 3

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

This makes the most sense to me.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I looked through the thread a little but I was wondering if anyone else noticed at 0:12 how they used the wrong clip for '99 "Double Trouble". The one shown in its place is from '97 "Troid Terror".

Also, am I the only one who finds it ironic how he is recycling something right after he says change is coming?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

What is the song in the video?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Thats the song in the video. It doesn't seem particularly interesting. Except its from a website called wav tracks. wav = wave = water, tracks = racing, its a water racing game. Clearly.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Yes it has been noted. Personally I think this is one of the biggest clues. Or a huge mistake by someone at FIRST.

Maybe we just need to forget everything that happened in 99. For those of you not born yet should be easy.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

In 1999 (Double Trouble), alliances scored points by positioning "pucks" on the playing field. :rolleyes:

Hockey game anyone? ;) :D

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I think you guys are overthinking it. It's obviously a game where you score points by dropping copies of the 2014 game manual into recycling bins.

But seriously, except for the 1997-1999 thing, I think all the hint is saying is that there will be some rule changes for 2015.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

For those who think auto will move to the end of matches try to remember how many robots are unable to operate under autonomous conditions. Given the goal of the GDC to create games with consistent/increasing action and excitement for spectators I think it's highly unlikely they would move autonomous to the end so we can watch some of the robots just sit idle as the clock winds down.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I wouldn't be surprised to see that super expensive and rather unused truss be recycled for 2015 somehow...

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

People seem to be using the word "recycle" incorrectly, or interpreting it to mean what it may not.

When I "recycle" a plastic bottle, it goes through a process by which it can be turned into pretty much anything else, it may be a similar bottle, but it could also become a chair.

When I "reuse" a plastic bottle, I can usually taste what was left of the coke that I had in it the first time. Ew.

Frank said "change is coming", as well as dumping last years game in the recycling bin. These two things must be in agreement with each other.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I would be money that this hint had very little** to do with the actual game itself. I think the hint has to do with the format of how we play. The 3 vs 3 will remain, but elimination format might be changed, or maybe time duration, or maybe another period in addition to auton. and telop.

Note: You could tell in the background that he was on the field, and that IF it was the 2015 field, the sides looked identical to all other years (even looked like an andymark one).

**MAYBE their was a game hint in it, concerning what the game was about. If their was a game hint, i think the bin had something to do with it

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Does anyone who was in for Lunacy remember how the field material samples were packaged? If they were rolled up, it's feasible that that could be our mysterious 3x3x60 package.

I also think the swapping of the 97-99 footage is an important clue, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

No way you COULD roll them that tight. The field stuff was tough to roll into anything smaller than the OD of the carpet rolls. No way, no how on it being Glasliner FRP.

As I recall, the field samples were tiles, not rolls. Most teams going for practice areas got tiles.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The trusses were rented and they have long since been returned to the rental company. We took the ones used in the PNW district to CMP to give them back to FIRST so they could return them. We asked if we could keep them for use in the off-season events and they said no.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

[quote=Anthony4004;1416073]3-3-2-2-4-4?
Also, Frank was on the 2nd page which (as someone pointed out) is the page about assist and cycling. What if this points back to this cycle? Which would be now

3-3-2-2-4-4-2

If you take these numbers as sets of two (3.3,2.2,4.4,2) and look at those sections in the 2014 game manual you will be at these sections:

Revision History
The ARENA
Fabrication Schedule
The Arena

Maybe the "change is coming" to these sections?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Definitely not an AM field as you can see zip ties holding the polycarb to the round top rails. On the AM field those panels are permanently attached to the square top rails with rivets.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Yes, field sample was a tile. You could buy it in 4'x8' sheets from hardware stores, and they did not roll.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

See my post #128:D
They can always be rented out again by FIRST and support posts raised to elevate it even more.

2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

He's not wearing safety goggles on what looks to be the field. I guess the change will be that we don't have to. Also, that rail looks suspiciously high which should mean big game pieces.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Well. This hint is... interesting, perhaps because its focus is on how the game relates to FRC as a whole instead of the theme of the game itself (presumably). But as for recycling the 2014 game - an idea that's been bounced around for a while now - it's certainly plausible at this point.

Reasons why:
-Frank literally recycled the 2014 game
-Not changing the core game is, ironically, a major change to FRC in and of itself
-Bit of a stretch, but the Double Trouble footage "mistake" could be viewed as repeating a game.

Now, to counter the 2 biggest counterarguments I've seen:

1. Veterans have too big of an advantage
Why? Rookie teams can easily view last year's competition for strategy, and no one said the game piece had to be the same, or that the goals had to be the same size/location. I'm fairly confident changing the exercise balls to some sort of rigid, 5 foot long object would throw a wrench in the majority of last year's mechanisms ;)
(Oh, you could also add an endgame. Would require major redesigns.)

2. FIRST would never do that/It's an unprecedented change
Precisely. Change is coming.

Think about it. Not only could this explain the mystery KOP box, but that would change a lot of how the basic robot-to-robot interaction is accomplished. Intake devices would have to be much more precise, which requires more precise passing by alliance members; a game piece coming 3 inches high off the ground doesn't even get over your bumpers (probably). No rolling it into their intakes, if it even can roll. Or into the low goals, for that matter, unless they're specifically redesigned for this purpose; they're both too wide to fit longways and over twice as high as the piece itself. Catching could also be easier/more valuable, depending on the specifics of the game piece and/or rules.

As a driver, I, for one, would be down for it. Aerial Assist was a VERY fun, strategic game to play.

Of course, this will probably sound crazy to me after I get some sleep. Oh well.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I don't see anyone pointing this out. Frank has mentioned the same thing in the past. See: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...g-New-for-2015

So, this hint is not new, just reworded from "something new" to "Change is coming"

FRC teams may experience a big enough change that he feels it should be said twice . . . or the video is more cryptic ;)

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

What you just described is a brand new game. New goals, new game piece, new match setup. That is already what they do and I personally like it that way. Plus, you can't use last years robot or any assembly built before kick off. Unless that rule changes too but I don't think that would happen.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I suppose. In my mind, though, Aerial Assist is a game which is played with a single game piece that's passed around between the alliance before being scored at the opposite end of the field; the rest of the rules are just details.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Do you have a source to FIRST approving this field?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I totally agree.
Maybe I shouldnt say this. Rumors from last season said that the truss was part of ............;)

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

If we see any big parts of Aerial Assist "recycled", wouldn't it be in 2-3 years being how long it takes to fully develop a game?

Maybe this is why they said change is coming, specifically showing the 2014 manual. Perhaps we won't see (major) assisting or no end game this year because by the time they knew if it was a successful venture, the 2015 game was already in major development.

Are there really coincidences in the game hints, I mean how could they accidentally put the wrong video for 1999? We have been shooting projectiles for three years in a row, if we go to a fourth most FRC students won't have experienced anything but shooting. 1997 and 1999 both included inner tube type objects- so we might be seeing a very heavily modified version of the past inner tube games.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

It's right there in the link.
From http://www.andymark.com/Field-p/am-2800.htm :

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

16 pages in five hours... on three words.
Huh.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

If we look at both the 1997 game and the 1999 game, the objectives were fairly similar. Raise the game piece to a great height. In 97 big points were received for placing the toroid (an inner tube) on the top peg. In 99 a lot of points were received for raising "floppies", another tube-like game piece, over 8 feet in the air. Going off of that, and the thought that FIRST wouldn't send out a game hint with an error in it, I would guess that we are lifting a tube-like object high off the ground.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The paper clip represents those who hold everything together: refs.

Paper recycling plants remove paper clips.

Here's the catch - not all paper clips are always removed.

Frank is recycling the 2014 game (and the very visible paper clip) completely - no changes at all, we get to play aerial assist again (prolly).

But this time around, there will be half as many referees (or no refs) on the field for efficiency.

Cant wayt fo 2015 the yere of the sheep

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Emphasis on robot size and weight increases, alliances including more robots, and a different field surface and shape.

Also hinting that the majority of the rules are different from last year by throwing away the game manual (ok yes he threw it in the recycling but that is what he would have done anyways if the recycling part had nothing to do with the hint).

Subtle hint that 1999 wasn't worth showing. 1999 was quite a bit different than any other game in first, the game pieces were floppy and a lot harder to pick up than any other game piece that I can think of.

The side rails of the field that Frank was on was almost waist high, much higher than previous years.

Give me until the 3rd of next year and I'll have figured it out by then.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

FIRST has already tinkered and changed those things. I think something will change that hasn't been changed before; possibly drastically. If it IS one of those things, I can imagine it being something like completely getting rid of the robot weight requirement. However, I'm not sure how likely it is. Also, let's not forget that several well-established rules could drastically change.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Then the game name will have something to do with change? I wonder how the showing of previous years could fit in with that.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Could the reference to "Change" be as simple as sorting game pieces based on size or color like sorting change? Still could leave open for shooting or picking up and placing. If the 1997 and 1999 video repeat was not a mistake, it was based on placing game pieces. Add into this the new linear actuators that iR3 has come out with along with the linear actuator that was in First Choice, could support a pick and sort type of game. I also find it interesting FTC's game is "Cascade Effect" which if you have a change sorter, they have a "cascade effect" when sorting. Has FIRST ever had similar games between FRC and FTC in the same year?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I do not believe the GDC will re-use the 2014 game because:
1. It would be SO boring, even with a major change, and if they are going to make a major change they might as well call it a new game
2. Huge advantage for veterans (again unless there was a major change but again that would just be called a new challenge
3. They already returned the trusses to whatever company they rented them from, someone said this earlier in the thread I forget where

If we follow the pattern of the past 3 years' challenges:
2012: shooting round balls, easy to pick up/manipulate/shoot
2013: shooting frisbees, harder to pick up/manipulate, still easy to shoot
2014: shooting massive ball with tons of drag, much more difficult
2015: shooting some object that is oddly shaped, hard to pick up and shoot, a football, maybe a football challenge, my team (3941) has been discussing this idea for about a month now

However there is something to be said for having 4 years of shooting in a row. This does mean people like me (in their senior year) will have had a shooting challenge every year in FRC, Do you think the GDC would think it was bad to have all shooting challenges and try to mix it up? Or keep what was working in the past regardless of the lack of variety?

Now looking at the hint. I believe the footage mix-up for the 1997 and 1999 challenges was not a mistake, definitely something there. Also I believe there might be a hint in the scores of the matches, however would FIRST have enough footage to search through to find specific numbers for the beginning games? Probably not, however they definitely have enough footage from the past few years to get the scores they want, so at some point the scores in the challenges may start to have more meaning. I'm suggesting that point is 1999 because that is where the mix-up is.

Of course we are assuming someone spent some time making this hint if the there is a message in the game scores. Maybe I'm over-analyzing but if you remember the 2013 game hint that definitely took several complex steps to solve, just a thought, let me know what you guys think

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The field shape and size won't be changing. Andy mark know has a deal with first to reproduce the field so teams would be spending thousands of dollars for a field they can't even use. First wouldn't do that to anyone

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I M almost certain that FIRST has all of the major matches from all the years recorded. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had every match recorded.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The statement about the field size not changing is correct. If they reused the game, I would hate it unless they modified it well enough. Guess what though? They showed all the years of change. Change happens every year. What if the change is that there is no change? That would be a change. However, I feel that change could refer to the 6 division at Einstein. I think different alliance sizes would be cool, but making it work with the same size field seems unrealistic.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Agreed

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Someone might have said this already... but after reading a lot of this thread, my teammates and I took another look at the game hint video and although Frank is totally standing on a 2015 field, they don't show the field surface...

lends to the idea that it might not be carpet this year. :ahh:

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

After Lunacy, I'm really hoping that they're smart enough to not have that kind of thing again. However, what would be interesting is patches of different surfaces throughout the field, or the field divided into sectors, each with a different surface. That would make driving different and open surface based strategies.

The more things change the more they stay the same !!

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

1992 - Maize Craze - Inaugural Year
1993 - Rug Rage - Increase in size and go wireless
1994 - Tower of Power
1995 - Ramp ‘n Roll
1996 - Hexagon Havoc- Weight Increases
1997 - Toroid Terror
1998 - Ladder Logic
1999 - Double Trouble - Alliances begin
2000 - Co-opertition First
2001 - Diabolical Dynamics - Race against Clock
2002 - Zone Zeal
2003 - Stack Attack - Autonomous Mode
2004 - Raising the Bar
2005 - Triple Play - 3 v 3 introduced
2006 - Aim High
2007 - Rack and Roll
2008 - Overdrive
2009 - Lunacy - surface isn't carpet for first time since ‘92
2010 - Breakaway
2011 - Logomotion
2012 - Rebound Rumble
2013 - Ultimate Ascent - frame perimeter changed
2014 - Aerial Assist
2015 - ???????????

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

As I stated in the interview last night, there's also a pattern rotating from perfectly spherical objects to non spherical objects or spherical objects with holes in them. By objects I mean game pieces. This has been going on since about 2000.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

On the frc blog Frank made a comment titled 97 footage for 99 game that read whoops. I guess they did just make a mistake. Here is the link for anyone interested. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...is-a-game-hint

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Too lazy to find the post that mentioned it earlier, but I think it warrants repeating that Frank posted a much more... Straightforward version of this hint on the blog in October. Not saying that there isn't something hidden in the video, but Frank has pretty much confirmed that a major rule, something that's been a part of FRC for multiple years now, is changing. My vote is on no teleop this year. Just think, giant metal 6-player FLL. *That* would be change.

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...g-New-for-2015

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I think no teleop would really take away from team cooperation. Don't think FIRST would ever do that.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

This is the most terrifying theory I've read. I'm the sole programming mentor.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

This could totally be a sarcastic comment. He could be saying "whoops, I know I did it wrong, I just want you to think it was an accident."

You never know with FIRST:confused:

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The game is named Change. "Change" is coming. This was also Frank's audition tape to be the new movie promo voice over guy.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I like this analysis, you win.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

And this is why game hints can be totally misleading.

This puzzles me. Elaborate please on what you mean exactly?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

A few theories that may be repeating a bit but:

1) The 97/99 in the video wasn't a simple "mistake". I can't imagine FIRST HQ letting that big of a slip-up go especially when they should know that the CD community will pick up on it immediately. The comment "Whoops" does feel a bit like a "Whoops, silly me, hint hint, cough cough". There may be something related to 97/99 this year.

2) I agree with those that are saying "change" is going to refer to Champs changing. If they are aiming for 540 - 600 teams, I think increasing the field number from 4 would make sense, which they would need at least 6 fields to keep it around 100 teams per.

3) Not sure they'll ever completely re-use a game without any major change (which kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?). I think what the recycle bin represents is FIRST recycling numerous past game elements into one game.

January 3rd can't come fast enough...

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Or how about "Climate Change" of "Changing Climates" or any variation on this?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Maybe putting too much thought into the recycle bin. Maybe he's just throwing out the 2014 manual. If he put the manual in just a trash can that would be considered irresponsible to just throw out paper instead of recycling. So, maybe just emphasizing that the game will be totally different from last year.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

BUZZ THINKS :) :)

HOCKEY RELATED GAME

1. Some thinks its hockey related due to size of one of the kit of parts box dimensions
2. When I heard recycle, I googled hockey and recycle --> http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=706747 --> “NHL Green first launched the "Recycle the Game" program with non-profit Restore Hockey in 2012”.
3. http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=18744 -- “As part of the League’s ongoing initiative with Restore Hockey, NHL Green asks all fans attending the 2013 NHL Draft to help us recycle the game!”
4. Hockey teams change sides after each period -- NEW TO FIRST GAMES

:) :) :)

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Interesting thoughts. Don't agree with 3, because you can look up a lot of things with "recycle", but it provided some nice insight.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

You, my friend, are a genius.:cool:

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

It seems like lots of people keep arguing that, if a game were to be reused heavily, that younger teams would not be at a disadvantage despite not experiencing the game that a new game is based on. I just can't see how this could possibly be the case.

The first reason stated is that with the proliferation of match video and team video archive online, any team should be able to go online and check out the mechanisms that worked in the past. Well, of course that is true, but there is a very distinct difference between quickly seeing a low quality video of a mechanism and actually remembering all the development process of it and what traps need to be avoided. You might even actually have your past CAD models of your own mechanisms, or the old robot! This is a huge advantage over any younger team who never did any of this.

Another argument is that, well, since you have to re-make you robot every year, those past mechanisms wont help anyway. I mean, lets look at drive trains for example. Teams develop over time designs that they like to use on their robot and may parallels can be drawn on the drive systems of teams year in and out. I'd reckon many of them do some CAD equivalent copy-and-pasting too.

Veteran teams are VETERANS. They have experience in FRC from their past years of competition. They will always have an advantage over very young teams, and making a game very similar to one in the past just heightens this advantage.

From previous years games its apparent that FIRST likes bringing up the rookies by providing easy scoring opportunities. 5 points for drive in auto for example. They want this to continue, so to reuse many game manipulation elements or game pieces are fundamentally not in their interest.

This game will be new in the physical realm, but I suspect the recycling will be of the rules and not the physical elements. He did recycle the manual after all, not a deflated excessive ball or Frisbee.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

perhaps, but there was only core gameplay included in the video, none of the endgames showed up in the footage. Maybe no endgame?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Marc Stollmeyer posted this in the YouTube comments, "Emphasis on robot size and weight increases, alliances including more robots, and a different field surface and shape. Also hinting that the majority of the rules are different from last year... (subtle hint that 1999 wasn't worth showing)

So we will have a new alliance system of robots that are bigger than we've seen before, competing on a non-carpet field that is a different size than previous years, and that bit in the end probably means that reading the rules is more important than ever. Its practically 1999 all over again."

Interesting...

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_...tay_the_sam e

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but all of the possible changes mentioned in this post all of the changes he mentioned were covered in the video, except for bumper rules.

That, together with the discussion about the items that teams will recieve on the KOP, makes me believe something about the bumpers is going to change.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The hint means that, for the first time in 22 years, there won't be an FRC game.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I tend to agree....although I don't think it's the game, as much as it is the rules. The old rule book is getting tossed into the bin, so we get to start with a completely different (hopefully much thinner) rulebook in 2015.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

If we indeed are recycling maybe this will be part of the game...https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...907614&fref=nf

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Usually, the hint is something about the name. It almost never (if ever) has been about the game itself.

I believe the name has to do something with change. Delta sounds cool, and change would be obvious. It's usually Alliterative, (Aerial Assist, Toroid Terror, Diabolical Dynamics) or at least sounds it (Ultimate Ascent) so maybe something that starts with Ch- or sh- for change or starts with "D" for Delta?

I don't think recycling the manual has to do a lot with the game, more about getting rid of last year and starting a new one (like we do every year). The bin maybe significant, but everyone is promoting recycling lately, FIRST will probably start this year as well.

The only thing I can't think of a reason for is skipping 1997 and showing 1999 twice in the clip...

We won't know for 10 days, 23 hours, and 55 minutes... make that 54.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I think that the time to control the robot manually will change. That's why we saw the manual go in the trash. Also the long box with the kop could be a beacon or light that changes blue or red to indicate a robot on each alliance will change sides for end game.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

That makes sense because wasn't there some blog post about having much simpler and intuitive rules being the goal for the 2015 game?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Until wifi technology improves, I don't think you are going to get more than 6 robots on the field.

I think "change" might be a reference to what the robots do. To keep with the recycling motif, I was thinking the robot changed the game piece from "trash" to a usable product. However, that would appear to create a lost of waste (one-time use game pieces).

Another "change" from prior years might be the alliance robots working together to assemble the game pieces into something.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The blog was about making it easier for the refs.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

My thought is that change is a prominent point being made. I agree with the idea that they are just showing that there is a major change from the previous years but I like the idea of possibly having the alliances switch goals, bridges or something about a minute in.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I like this thought. It explains the long box in the kit of parts since it's something EVERY robot must have. Prediction: the the word "Change" will be in game name, so perhaps one or more robots change sides during the match.

The other thought that went through my mind is that FIRST is trying to figure out how to manage growth. How I could see this happening:
1. 4v4. In Breakaway, one of the driver stations was at the field end and was smaller than the other two, so the current field can accomodate 4 per side.

2. Not only are the robots getting smaller (and lighter); but perhaps the PIT SIZE will decrease from 10'x10' to 8'x8' to accomodate more teams at a venue. The Palmetto regional had to do this several years ago when they were at Clemson. Made things a bit cramped; but it was workable. This is another of those "unchanging rules" that everyone assumes is a given.

OK there's my 2cents (with "change" to spare).

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I don't think we'll see more than 6 teams on the field at once, adding 2 more robots to the field gets really cramped really fast and makes the game much less enjoyable to watch. Nobody wants to see clusters of robots sitting there because there is no room to move.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Moreover, if people thought Aerial Assist was rough on robots, I'm pretty sure a 4-robot-per-alliance game would be even worse. That many more collisions per match, etc.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I can't decide whether this sounds more amazing or terrifying. Probably both. How would that work seeding wise, though?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Could we be seeing the return of coopertition points?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

While I love the wild and crazy theories thus far, from my fuzzy recollection the game hints have given the name of the game and nothing about how it is played. The most vivid example I recall is Logomotion.

I agree with many that these items will stay the same
- There will still be 6 teams on the field
- There will be two alliances
- The field will still be a rectangle with drivers at each end wall


If it is time for a change of a similar magnitude to what was shown in the hint video I think having two game pieces makes a lot of sense.

A more difficult non-spherical object (like a football) worth more points with a limited number on the field to keep veterans from running away with the game. The second piece would be an easier to manipulate piece worth less points.

Perhaps one piece is a shootable piece and one is a heavy stackable piece is the other.

In the 5 years I have been doing FRC there has been one piece (yes logomotion had different shaped tubes, but all were manipulatable with a single mechanism). I believe there will be a move to offer more scoring choices such that you cannot do them all (yes, a few teams will be able to). This was a concept debuted in 2013 with the pyramid vs shooting. I loved the pyramid because it was not really an endgame gimmick - you could start climbing at the first second if you wanted to. The issue was that there was no huge advantage to doing the pyramid, especially given the risk of falling.

Now imagine a shooting game and stacking game going on simultaneously. Both have equal points possibility. To get max points on stacking you get bonuses for stack height, some kind of pattern or the top colored game piece. Shooting has a few goal levels and perhaps some kind of bonus if you score a lot of game pieces. This does not have a cooperative element which I think we will see, but I think two simultaneous mini-games is an interesting idea. Overall it would be interesting to make the game so that you can't do it all and have to make strategic choices in your design and at the competition to win.

I also wouldn't mind seeing some reasonable field obstacles or the multi-level/multi-surface ideas others have thrown out. The biggest thing this does in my mind is reduce full speed collisions.

In any case - I can't wait for the 3rd!!!!!

Please continue nuancing the video. It is entertaining. Perhaps you can look for a message in the pixels somewhere =P

-matto-

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

If they are messing with the bumpers I might go insane. I had a hard enough time doing them the old way last year.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Certain game changes weren't mentioned, such as changes in field shape. What makes a change important (or not important) enough to be mentioned in the video?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

In 2015 Lithuania will officially switch to the euro as its currency. In other words its change will change, and that change is coming. Now, the World Bank lists the literacy rate of Lithuanians 15 years of age and older as 100%. 100 degrees Celsius is the boiling point of water.

Water game confirmed.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

The 97-99 switch was not accidental. If it was accidental, they would probably have the same clip. It is from the same match (or at least the same teams), but from different times during that match.

In those games you got higher points for lifting things higher. Arm game with no height limits?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Judging by the "Whoops!" response on the blog post, yes it was.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I didn't read through all of the thread, but there seemed to be a lot of speculation on 3 alliances with a triangular field. Obviously, a lot of people have already pointed out the issues with a triangular field (cost of building all new fields, the AndyMark field).

But it got me thinking of 3 alliances and hire you wet hold prevent a 2v1 scenario. Pure speculation/wishful thinking, but what about 3 alliances of two robots, with the drive teams split so your alliance member was on the other side of the field. Some sort of cooperation game (Recycling the assist concept?), But with an added twist... Some sort of bonus or multiplier that can be earned by one half of the field (ie half of each alliance) working together at least partly. It would add a whole other level to game strategy that we haven't really seen... Like the coopertition bridge, but more in depth.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I think this would negatively effect game play by not being able to communicate with your alliance partners during the match. We'd actually lose a lot of the cooperation that was gained from Aerial Assist that a lot of people enjoyed(granted, some didn't enjoy it) and end up back to a game where the robots just do their own thing.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

That's the thing about text and not voice communication... you never know when someone is being sarcastic. :confused:

He could mean it and say it really was a mistake, but FIRST puts time into these things, so I doubt it was an actual accident.

What's the size of the tube in kop???

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

I like what I'm hearing about those lights on poles in the long box.

Got me thinking including the word change....


What if those are pole lights..... and they denote your team colour.... and at somepoint in the match all the lights switch around and the teams change?????? That would be a major thing and a huge challenge to teams to have to work with everyone on the field and play against everyone on the field at the same time.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

How would you determine a winner?

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Maybe based on a robots individual contribution to the overall score? Kinda the same way assist points were given out?

EDIT: maybe something like, 1 way to score for everyone. but a multiplier for doing said task with the right coloured robots.

For example, if the task takes 3 robots, and all 3 robots are red. then x3 multiplier. but if 2 were red and 1 was blue that completed the task then only x2 multiplier. All robots that complete the task get the points. and at the end the top 3 robots of the match are the winners.

This way the task can be done with anyone, but promotes teams to communicate with the whole field to accomplish a task for the most multiplier. A team with a strong bot still has to work with the rest of the field in order to win.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

From my observations, people on Chief Delphi vastly overestimate the complexity of these game hints. They're always obtuse and generally unhelpful, sure, but usually fairly simple and straightforward once you "figure them out."

I have never seen speculation about game information in tiny details like that pan out, so I'm fairly confident that it was, indeed, a mistake.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Were assist points actually done by robot? I thought they were done by total alliance assists.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

When the match scores went up they were for the whole alliance, but seeding took into account the assist points the robot made.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

This is true. I changed my thought process to my above post quite a bit now lol.

Re: 2015 HINT DISCUSSION
 

Pause the video at 34 seconds in. Notice the wording. "Primary field surface isn't carpet for the FIRST time since 1992"

That was the ONLY time, but due to that wording, I'm thinking we get a weird surface this year.