Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I have had a few of my posts deleted in the last 24 hours because they contained some information that the moderators don't want the community hearing.

I have made sure not to post any of this information in this post in hopes that the moderators allow this post to stay so we can have a civilized discussion on the topic.

I feel that it is wrong and insulting for the moderators to censor the free flow of information. I come to CD to read about and discuss the latest news in the FRC community. This news should be no different then any other.

- Bochek

ps. please don't discuss the information the mods are trying to keep suppressed in this tread. We don't want this thread deleted too.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The topic in question compromises a core element of how FRC works, an element which in my opinion plays a huge part in making it highly effective. I personally believe that it is in our best interest as a community, and as participants in FRC, to respect the structure provided to us by FIRST.

As a result, I support keeping the topic in question under wraps as much as is possible, in order to maintain the intended operation of the program. I don't think equating maintaining the intended experience to censorship is quite right.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

If you aren't going to mention what information you believe is being suppressed, what is the point of this thread?

Clarification edit: I was not advocating posting the information here.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

To discuss the ethics of deleting posts, not the information that was deleted.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

To discuss the fact that the moderators feel its okay to keep information to themselves. I believe that once something is found out about the game, it should be shared between all of the teams. Everyone should have an even advantage.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I am also a little bit disturbed about an entire thread and 10+ posts in another simply disappearing with no trace. It makes perfect sense that the site originally hosting the information would take it down immediately. But CD is a more or less unaffiliated community space, where we would not expect certain party's special interests to be protected by censorship. If the censored material were related to some of the more important issues discussed on these boards, it would obviously not be OK to slant the discussion and community's awareness like this. As it was, the offending material was relatively harmless and frivolous, and I'm not terribly upset. But it still gives me a little bit of a bad feeling.

It's also my gut feeling that this is not a matter of consensus among the mods. For one, there are so many that there is likely never a perfect consensus to be found. But also, I think many of them would share the sentiment that removing these discussions is not something we want to happen. But of course it only takes a few mods who disagree to go ahead and take it down. I hope that they are not acting on behalf of the relevant parties.

EDIT: In the time between clicking reply and making my first post, several people made their own posts. Several have since posted as well (in particular, thanks GKrotkov for pointing to some relevant forum rules). Having had a chance to read these, I see a very strong case for the censorship as well. It is important to the FRC community to maintain kickoff hype and to abide by FIRST's policies for information release. Jessica gives some great examples of past precedent that I didn't make the effort to search out. Finally, I don't think any mods were acting to cover someone's butt as I made it seem in my above post. Their intentions are in fact in the community's interest.

I'm totally fine with the information in question being suppressed. I just get a little shaken up when my posts go missing ;)

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

CD is a forum provided by a group of people. You use it with their permission. Don't like it? Don't use it.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I wont speak for all the mods, but it looks like I'm the first one to the thread.

Since the late 90s when Chief started, the mods have been pretty consistent in their actions. Any discussion that concerns leaking the game in any way gets shut down to keep an even playing field. That includes the time an image repository was accidentally public, any (serious) manual cracking discussion, people breaking into SNHU, and even discussion about the time some kid went into the rock climbing place across from HQ to catch a glimpse of the 3rd floor.* Now that I think of it, this kind of thread is pretty common too, if you go digging.

Kickoff is my favorite of the FIRST events because everyone is in the best mood they will be all season. Noone's crabbing about rules, or who did what to whom, and everyone is well rested and optimistic. HQ has done lots of hard work all year long, we can wait a couple of days.

If you have an issue I recommend you speak to Mike Martus directly, because airing of grievances won't get you far. It never really does.

*(Ok, that one wasn't discussed, but it happened and I love telling that story.)

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Setting aside argument about the morality of leaked information:

It's as simple as that.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I was literally going to dig that one up! Thanks.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

This is not new to CD. Any post that goes against GP, "critical" of volunteers or does not serve the CD community in positive way have disappeared. I don't know the contents of this specific posts, but at large, moderators seem to be doing a good job in keeping the website follow GP and stick with CD forum rules.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Hey now, as someone who has made a lot of posts critical of volunteers and that have been called "unGP"* I've never had a post deleted that I didn't request deleted. They don't moderate to remove a side of the story they don't want heard. They moderate to follow the rules we agreed to when we signed up.


* I contest the un GP part.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

When it comes to leaking the game early (which seems to be what's being discussed, even though the OP doesn't say so specifically) and "censoring" the information on CD, I think everyone needs to think things through a bit.

The FIRST community is really an awesome one. From what I've seen, most people in the community, if presented with the game early, wouldn't try to gain an advantage by it. I know I, personally, would be super excited but wouldn't tell my team - they need to go through the experience the same as everyone else, on a level playing field. However, there are some people (and maybe even some teams) who would take advantage to get started early. And frankly, we would probably never know unless they said something.

So if someone comes across non-public material (or material that is supposed to be non-public) about the game, they need to stop and consider how they want to handle that material. They could look at it, get excited, and bask in the knowledge that they know something everyone else doesn't for a few days. They could use it to get started working early. They could simply pass it up. Or they could try to share it with as many people as possible.

The OP's position seems to be that such information should be leaked to as many people as possible so everyone has the same opportunity to cheat. In my opinion, that's wrong. The odds that someone will take the information and get started increase with the number of people who know such information - keeping it to yourself and not sharing helps ensure that fewer people know about it, and less cheating occurs.

Personally, I support the mods using their power on the forums to help ensure we preserve the format, intent, and purpose of the game and program. What are mods for, if not to actively moderate the discussion and keep us all in check? They aren't glorified babysitters who are here to only delete spam posts.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The posts in question at this point in time may not have been by the choice of the moderators of this forum. If what was in the posts was credible FIRST may have contacted them telling them to take it down or face legal action. It sounds extreme but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happened.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

If you have ever dealt with the folks at first, you'd be EXTREMELY surprised if they threatened that sort of thing.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Okay so my point may have been extreme but they may have asked for it to be taken down.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I will not go into detail about what happened, but does anyone know if it is too late for them to possibly change the game, with that large of a leak?

The only possible reasons it would stay the same are
1) whether they think this was severe enough
2) whether it is too close to kickoff to change the plans (I think this is likely, as everything has probably already been shipped to local kickoffs)

If this happened, say, two weeks ago, do you think they would have brought out the backup game?

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

There were certainly Chief Delphi moderators involved. Threads can only be removed by moderators. Additionally, my post in the game hint thread was not deleted by me, but by a moderator. Whether they were acting on their own initiative or at the request of FIRST or Andymark is hard to tell, and probably not worth speculating about.

All this transpired within 10-20 minutes, from initial discovery to cleanup.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Don't be surprised. All GDC, FIRST Employees that work in the "Game Design Dungeon" and remote Kick Off sites have to sign a NDA and I would assume there are legal ramifications if there is a leak.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I'd still be surprised if FIRST reacted that way. I'd think it more likely they they dealt with it on a professional level and simply removed that person from the process. After all, look what happened when their biggest event was hijacked - the way it was handled didn't involve lawyers at all. But it's all speculation. I like to think the best of everyone until proved wrong :)

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I think it's already too late. More and more people are seeing this thread and other posts discussing the deletion, and they will get curious and sooner or later, someone is going to repost the leaked information and it will blow up.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I've been dealing with NDAs for 35 years. In cases like this, the NDA exists to make it clear how information about the game should be handled. An NDA signer who leaked information about the game would never be trusted again.

If a student member or mentor on our team came across undisclosed information that would effectively compromise the integrity of the game, my expectation would be that they would keep the details to themselves and let FIRST know immediately. Choosing to act on or publicize the information would reflect poorly both on the person and our team.

Finally, the OP (a mentor) should think carefully how future employers might react to his posture on this question. This post already ranks second on Bing when searching for his name.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Let's be realistic. More and more constitutes less than 1% of the FIRST community. Yes this might make some people curious, but with kickoff only a few days away this will blow over shortly.

You have a freedom of speech to post what you want and most likely homeland security will not come knocking at your door, but the private owners of this site have the freedom to limit the content and its users if they so choose.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The information was pulled from reddit.com/r/frc too.

I don't know if I saw the full extent of the "leak", which was one element of the game, but I'm not convinced it's real, and if it is, I think it was an accident.

If somebody has the leaked information and wants to share it, they WILL be able to do it. They can post it on facebook, youtube, or some other website that isn't moderated.

CD has been consistent with game leaks. There have been leaks in the past, but there have NEVER been any discussion threads about them. To remain in good standing with FIRST, CD should do the right thing, and take down the leaks.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Not arguing that it should be posted here, just saying in the end it might not make a difference.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Agreed 100%. Google already has a cached copy of a certain thread in the rumor mill.......

What is the probability that one or more of the mods is involved with a current team?

Second if the game has in fact been leaked there is a better than average chance that the team has already started design, prototyping, and build, but how are we to know what teams have the info??

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

This is FIRST. Should we assume the best in these people, or the worst?

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

If you go to http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15 and scroll to the bottom of the page, you can see the moderators involved in the Rumor Mill. If you look at the profiles of these moderators, there are some affiliated with FRC teams and others not.

(If, of course, the posts we are talking about were in the Rumor Mill.)

Edit : After checking, out of the 11 mods, there are 7 of them which are involved with an FRC team (based on their profile).

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The supposed "leak" was not of the game. Even if it (the "leak") were true, no one would know how it worked in with the game as a whole.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Another Mod checking in....


We have always deleted and removed content which was not in the best interest for the community. Sometimes that is a person who writes hateful things and sometimes (very infrequent in the last couple years) we have deleted leaks about a game.

If you remember that FIRST is a k-12 program and most of the active members of the community are still students, we have a responsibility to remove content which is not appropriate or keeps within the mission of FIRST. There are lots of uncensored parts of the Internet that you can talk about or discuss everything and anything you want. If being totally open is your goal, I suggest that you seek out one of those outlets.

Specifically speaking to game leaks, many people view kickoff like their version of opening a present. That feeling of excitement when there is a new game challenge is something FIRST and many people in the community hold sacred (just look at the game hit threads and the excitement build up).

Additionally in terms of fairness only a fraction of teams (my guess would be less than 20%) have multiple active people on these forums and if people here got an inside advantage early how would that look?

I find it interesting that most of the people in this thread are mentors. It is our job to make sure that the current students in the program continue to have the amazing experience that many of us did when we were on teams. Yes this is extremely fun for us aswell, but the student experience should always come first in FIRST. Maybe look at things from that perspective if you are still questioning why we (the Mods) do what we do on Chiefdelphi.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I know of a case where someone's account was deleted for making a post that was critical of a prominent volunteer's opinion and refusing to apologize. It's been a while. Maybe things have loosened up since then.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

You'd hope that, as a community that puts such a high emphasis on professionalism , the individuals who have been assigned the role of moderators will hold up to those ideals. This is a community that thrives on holding high moral standards for its members, and I'd hope that as we continue to grow, we face challenges like this as such.

Jay

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I agree completely, as someone who saw the "leak" I wish that I wouldn't have seen it. If it turns out to be an actual leak it takes away from the excitement and buildup to kickoff and as such I've chosen not to share it with any of my fellow students on my team to maintain the integrity of kickoff for all of them.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The last NDA I signed with FIRST did not have any legal mumbo jumbo.. and the only consequence for revealing data was that were I in violation they'd never trust me or share any data in the future, ever. While I treat all NDA's similarly, I must admit that this one has had the most attention-grabbing, emotional impact on me.

BTW, FIRST HQ does much of the field mock ups and whatnot in the basement. There are no windows to look in and badge access is required.

I like to think the best of people, but the reality is not all people use their moral compass!

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Well, then...

I have faith that at least the moderators on CD aren't the type to use this information or their power maliciously and cheat with their teams.

Also, if some unscrupulous team is trying to start working now, all that telling everyone would accomplish is to create more "cheaters." It will never get to the point where Kickoff just happens early and everyone can start then. It wouldn't level the playing field, but unbalance it even more.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Agreed. As someone who saw the leak as well. I spent most of the day yesterday trying to see if any of our teams students had seen it. Although its a big deal that this happened, if I'm the only one on my team who saw it, then I'm happy.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I saw as long as the kids haven't had it spoiled. (plus it didn't really spoil much in the grand scheme of things)

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Exactly the reason I don't look at my charge card bills in December, it can possibly blow the surprise (well that and all those commas in the numbers)

Life has lots to do about trust. Just because you have access to CD or reddit/frc does not mean to publish the info, keep it under your hat for 4 more days.

Remember, it's a game. We are all here to play the game and learn something. We are here to inspire people. The inspired roboteer does not need the info 4 days before kickoff, they are going to have that cool idea on the the third day of the season, then build a robot and show up and play.

My thanks to all the CD Moderators for deleting and removing all the flotsam and jetsam that swirls around here. From Spam to Stupid, you have my thanks.

I wasn't trying to be malicious in way!! To me part of the problem is the competition aspect. Let me explain.....

I mentor to pass my knowledge of mechanics, fabrication and problem solving to those that really want to learn something. Nothing means more to me than when one of the students has that Ahh ha moment. You know when it clicks in their brain and they have an idea or an understanding of how to overcome the problem.

Now.... There are a few students and a couple mentors that are more concerned with "winning" the game rather than the importance of the students getting their heads outside the box so to speak.

I start every year off with this...

I personally don't care if we put the bot out on the field, and the moment auto starts all the magic smoke comes out of it, as long as at least one of you (the students) has an Ahh ha moment this year.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

I was one of the first moderators on the scene when the leak appeared. We took guidance from FIRST HQ and handled the situation as quickly as possible. Whether people agree or not with the policy of deleting leaked information is a great discussion topic, however it's very important to know and understand and that FIRST wants leaks, whether credible or not, extinguished as quickly as possible and that's what the moderation team here will continue to do.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Great work Inspector Karthik.

Thanks to all on CD and Reddit for keeping a lid on the leaks. I am looking forward to the reveal Saturday!

And thanks to all the kickoff field builders, volunteers, suppliers and others that know something non-public about the game every year and keep it a secret.

-matto-

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I'll chime in to say that I think the best policy would be "information that is public is public." Once something has been leaked, it cannot be un-leaked.

That said, it's not my decision and if the CD mods think it best to censor the material in question, so be it - I can understand and accept the reasoning behind it, even if I don't agree with it.

I've seen the "leak," and while it's enough information to get you thinking about what types of things you want to look at, it's not going to confer any major competitive advantages upon those who have seen it.

Just my two cents.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

+1. My thoughts exactly.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I didn't see the leak, but personally, as a student, I'm thankful towards the mods that took it down. From what I hear/can tell, it was posted in the 2015 Game Hint thread, and I was lucky not to have seen it when I went to check the latest updates on the thread. It would've taken away from the excitement of Kickoff.

Furthermore, not every team and every team member checks Chief Delphi. So while it is a form of damage control, I would much rather the mods delete it and have as few teams have seen the leak as possible. For the teams that do gain any significant advantage by having seen the leak, they would have to live with that guilt the entire season and perhaps even later.

For me, I would just take that as a challenge to build an even better robot within the legal 6 weeks starting Kickoff.

I have no doubt in my mind that the people at FIRST and the moderators of this forum have been and are acting with no malicious intent.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I was also one of the people that saw the "leak". And I understand why all of our posts were deleted.

However, I tend to disagree with those that think everybody knowing about the said "leaked" info would take away from the the feeling of "opening a Christmas present" or (more importantly) the information giving an unfair advantage. The information was just (trying to be vague) a description. Anyways, once info is on the internet it can never be fully deleted. With the information found, it would not have helped get a four day head start as we still don't know the rules to the game are or what we are supposed to do with the said ______. With the info I cannot begin designing a robot, and I can still only speculate what exactly the game will be. Truthfully, if a person started a design it could be rendered useless. I mean, with some change coming, there could be rule coming out that is different than any of us have experienced. A person couldn't design a robot because they don't know if springs are allowed, or if something that is usually illegal, is legal this year.

I also support the moderators, I don't think their ethics were wrong or that they were trying for an unfair advantage (read above). They were doing their jobs and what had been asked of them. With all this said please keep Gracious Professionalism in mind and think before you post aggressive/attacking words (while some of you may not think they are, the connotation a person takes from your words may be seen as aggressive or offensive.)

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Someone made a mistake on the internet and we, as a community, had the rare opportunity to help them correct their mistake and minimize the potential negative consequences. We should be proud of that since it's something that happens so rarely and is something that the rest of internet is often loathe to do.

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are. We haven't added any moderators to the team in a long time and there are many of them who are no longer active on the boards or in FIRST, but they're all good, honest people. The notion that we'd censor information for our own gain is hard for me to wrap my head around, but maybe I'd feel differently if the rest were people I didn't know at all.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

This is the important thing here. We can all talk back and forth about how we would rather personally handle it, but it's being handled right now well within the terms of ChiefDelphi use, as well as with what HQ wants.

FIRST currently advocates for Chief as an unofficial discussion place - not listening to their requests might mean we don't get to maintain that positive relationship. I'd much rather see FIRST channeling people towards CD than ignoring its existence because of some posters' behavior.

I had a headache over this one too, Madison. Anyone who knows even a few of these moderators personally should be able to understand the caliber of person that they are. Anything they do in their position as moderator is for the general health & welfare of the forum, not for their personal gain. Their maturity in that respect is exactly why they're mods, and I feel badly that they're being hung out to dry right now.

While this is a good philosophical discussion to have (as long as it stays respectful), I think there are plenty of other hints/information to speculate from, and quite a few other tasks to get done pre-kickoff than worry about your 'rights' as a voluntary user of ChiefDelphi.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Wow...
With a side of wow.
Just got out after a day working with children at a sports camp and you know cheating there, kinda frowned upon. I can handle one kid not sitting down when they get tagged in dodge ball, but an unknown number of people seeing something that could effect gameplay? How do you even start to deal with that... Robot in 3 days is impressive but the response time on here was amazing. My shout out goes to the moderators for acting in such a prompt way. Now the question is how do I do probe for leaks on the team without causing a curious student to go digging up some forbidden fruit.
Also yeah totally pretty sure I signed an agreement to use this and it says somewhere mods can moderate.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Hi everyone,

I've been driving from Montreal back to Ontario for the last 7 hours or so, I've been reading all the responses but have been unable to reply.

I would like to preface this post by making it clear that it was not my intent to point fingers in my original post.

While I was, and still am upset by the moderators choice to delete posts of this nature. I understand that it is well within the forum rules to do so. I was hopeful that the original post would start a discussion on the ethics of deleting these posts. While it is my belief that information such as this should be shared amongst the masses, I understand many people don't feel the same way I do.

I'm going to touch on a couple of points brought up in this thread:

Madison, I couldn't agree more. I've been a member for nearly 8 years this is only the 2nd time I have ever had any interaction with a moderator.

Karthik, sure I did. I also had lots of other ideas for motive to delete the posts. Take a second to look at this from my end. My posts just started to disappear. No PM's or other forms of communication where left for me with any reason as to why they where being deleted.

Honestly, my first through was that whoever made the mistake of leaking the information in the first place was probably a moderator on CD, perhaps the Reddit FRC community as well and they might be trying to cover their mistake by deleting all posts related to the topic.


Finally, I would like to add that while I did choose to share this information with my team. It really does provide no advantage.

*Rachelle* summed it up perfectly.

- Bochek

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Although the moderators were able to quickly remove the leak it is still out there, it took me less than 30 minutes of [edit: not going to allow hints or anything hinty on how to find it --Billfred] to find it. Just like I tell my students, once it's on the internet you can't get it back. While I agree that it is certainly well within the moderators' rights to remove the information from CD they can only do so much due to the nature of the internet. Regardless, if someone wanted to find the information bad enough it is there to be found.

I'm not trying to encourage people to go looking for it, I'm just saying the the moderators can't make all of the problems disappear (though they are awesome people).

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

There is a lot of overlap between team mentors, FIRST volunteers, forum moderators, etc...

There is a huge amount of work to get done before kickoff, that requires a rather large group of people to sign NDAs and commit to keeping quiet. Part of the reason is to ensure the integrity of the game, and the other part is because it frankly ruins the fun for anyone who finds leaked information. I think it is a testament to the FIRST community that this is able to happen every year with the only known leaks being pure accident or not benefiting the most competitive teams.

Finding this information out a few days before kickoff is immaterial. There are plenty of other ways to cheat at FIRST, but at the end of the day, the best teams/mentors don't cheat because the advantage is minimal and the risk to their reputation far outweighs any "benefit". Personally, I'd hate to act on some leaked information to gain a benefit, because if we did place well, I'd always wonder if we deserved it.

I believe the moderating community was acting out of respect for the hundreds/thousands of CD readers that have the technical ability to hunt down the leak, but choose not to out of respect for the game. It wasn't to protect any personal advantage, or anything else. If you care about FIRST, I'd recommend you ignore it as well until Saturday. If you've seen it, you have a decision to make. Do you act on the information, and cheat... or not? It doesn't matter how many people have seen it, if you find information out before the game and start designing around it, you are cheating. We (FIRSTers) manage to avoid chances to cheat such as designing robot parts before kickoff, working past bag and tag, managing conflicts of interest between refs/judges at events and the teams they are associated with, etc. I don't see how this is any different.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I'm going to throw my hat in here blind, as I have made a few deletions and edits to remove leaked information. (A bit of background: As the Kickoff Coordinator for South Carolina this year, I've signed a non-disclosure agreement with FIRST HQ and have seen the kits of parts while moving them into storage. But since I don't need to know what the field looks like, I've seen neither drawings nor components of that.)

Let's quote the Administration Manual on Gracious Professionalism:

Now, I've long advocated that GP is best used as an internal barometer...but given that FIRST takes the secrecy of the game before Kickoff seriously enough to make anyone that might get a little whiff of something sign a non-disclosure agreement, I find it very hard to believe that an intentional leaker is showing respect for FIRST's position on the matter. I don't think we're being too draconian by upholding their desire to keep the game a secret until such time that they choose to release information themselves.

---------------------------------

There's an old Woodie anecdote where a mentor asked him why we only get six weeks--the response was something along the lines of "because we like you and care about your health". Our local Kickoff received the kits the week before Christmas, and while I didn't open any packages I saw enough things to spend a week and a half turning around in my head "What is FIRST going to do with [bleep] and [bleep]?" Having spent eleven seasons on the outside and now having a little taste of the inside: enjoy life on the outside while you can!

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

I for one generally do not like leaks. To me, leaks are like movie spoilers, the movie is not as exciting if you heard the spoiler. Kick Off is one of the most exciting events of the year for most people. And again, if someone learns about the leak, Kick Off may be less exciting for them.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

The leak was real. If you saw it, you could confirm it on an outside website, and FIRST HQ asked for it to be taken down from Chief Delphi. The FRC reddit people did the same thing.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

That, my friend, is quite disappointing.

While I haven't seen the leak, I understand it to not give significant advantage to those that did.

The OP didn't hack into a computer network or break in to a building in NH, or any unethical act to come across the information.

As the mentor of his team he has the responsibility to decide what to share with his team. It isn't up to us to decide what is GP for others. It is a standard that in gray areas is up to each to hold themselves to that standard.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowly and reevaluate your response.

Re: Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts
 

While I do understand your stance on this (and Mr. Fultz's), I can see where Matt is coming from as well. Just because he didn't win an award doesn't mean he's wrong to have an opinon.

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My two cents this thread should be locked or something. I think those of us who have looked into it are aware of the situation and the emotions, opinions, and actions surrounding this event are not going to create anything positive. People are going to see this and learn what they want to learn from it...

Well toss now I sound like a back seat moderator, considering I already shot myself in the foot by backseat moding, I think I will ratchet up the risky bidniss and say from the looks of it I imagine there is at least one moderator out there willing to take a few questions in there private messages. I'm also going to go super risky and play 21 and hit on 16's...

I have subscribed to the philosophy that GP is an inward reflection and not a standard you can apply to others, and this has served me well and seems to be in most cases a good rule.

It is however possible that Mr. Fultz is one of the few people that can claim to do so. In that situation, mea culpa.

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I have not seen the "leak", but his years game is already become interesting! Now I am anxiously waiting for kick-off than I felt yesterday!

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I don't see anything wrong with the response. There is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on the proper course of action when encountering leaked information. Moreover, I don't see anything in that post telling Mr. Fultz what GP is - rather, he quite reasonably pointed out that this is a non-trivial situation and we shouldn't condemn others simply for not agreeing with us.

And, really, I think it's unwise to perpetuate a culture where we treat certain people's opinions as word of god. There is nothing innately wrong with disagreeing with a Champion Woodie Flowers winner, and I think telling people that they should back away from entirely reasonable posts, simply because they express disagreement with people whom the community holds in high esteem, is not an atmosphere conducive to healthy discussion.

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So "leak" means a water game is confirmed? :confused:

Sigh. I'll wait for Saturday.

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I would agree to everything you said except for the word "reasonable." How is spreading a "leak" or what I really think is actively mined information from AndyMark that was never intended to be released to the public, reasonable? He is giving his team an advantage that others don't have. Excuse me if I don't think if that's "reasonable."

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I don't think that was necessary. Every person is entitled to an opinion, and he wasn't slandering anyone. One of the most significant aspects of CD is that it has always sparked some good discussion (albeit heated at times), and this kind of post discourages members of our very own FRC community from being able to voice their thoughts.

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My team's pre-season projects have all included scuba gear. I feel prepared!

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Let's set aside the "actively mined information" bit, since no one here (afaik) has provided any evidence to that effect (and moreover I don't think it's really relevant even if it is true).

Leaked information, once it has been put on the internet, is public domain. Once something is out there, it is out there - you can never take it back. It is an entirely reasonable stance that, sometimes, the best policy in those cases is to keep the information public rather than the contrary. Whether that is the case here is up for debate - I can see legitimate points on both sides.

There is room for reasonable people to disagree about this topic. I think it's good to respect that.

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There was no "mining" of information. For a period of time yesterday, anyone could have gone to the AndyMark website, clicked a link, and clicked a subsequent link which contained the information in question.

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*putting my fingers in my ears now*

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Let me tell you what I would have done if I happened to "stumble" upon such information: I would have contacted FIRST and AndyMark immediately. I would have kept the info to myself until I heard back from them. I would not have posted it to any other site or talked to anyone else about it. I know, I should not use my common sense when dealing with anyone else, but I just can't help it. I can't see ANY legitimate reason to spread info that i KNOW I shouldn't have. What agenda is served by spreading this information when know it shouldn't be in the public domain? If you buy into the logic that anything put on the internet is fair game, the world becomes a VERY scary place.

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This is fine, and is a perfectly legitimate and well-founded view. It is not the only legitimate view. This is a complicated issue, and attempts to paint it as black-and-white, I think, do everyone involved in the discussion a disservice.

To some sensibilities, fairness. People/teams that have seen it are not going to un-see it. Attempts to contain leaks can certainly, in some situations, be less-ideal solutions than everyone knowing what was leaked. Whether it "should" be in the public domain or not is, to an extent, immaterial - it is in the public domain, and that's not something that can necessarily be undone.

Appeal to consequences of a belief is a fallacy.

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If that is true, then I wonder how many folks "stumbled" upon this information? How many of those folks contacted FIRST or AM. How many of those folks told anyone else, or only their teams or folks they know? Those that spread information they knew should not have been public should be ashamed of themselves. I will again ask, what good was there in spreading this mistake to a larger population? None.

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FYI the person who originally leaked the information (that was his first post ever) is not the same person referenced on the previous page. The person in question here was simply relaying information already out in public, which is a completely different matter entirely from leaking it originally.

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But the world is a very scary place. That is the unfortunate truth of things.

Maybe someone saw something on a website relevant to the game and thought "wow, change really is coming. I want to discuss this thing I found with the community."

Not everything is negative just because some people see it that way. Even if you feel that this is the worst thing someone can do; try to remember that this is a chance to measure your character, not someone else's.

You seem to be doing that, but at the same time you ask what good does it do to spread the information. I'll just ask, what good does it do to get so worked up over something you have no control over? Can you imagine if this thread never existed? Most of us would have never even known that anything happened.

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Logic, as a defense to a bad act, is not a defense at all. Your "logic" would make all ill gotten information on the web fair game no matter how much damage it would do to someone or organization. EX: the recent Sony leaks or the release of any personal information on the interwebs be in stolen or not.

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You are presupposing that your view on the badness of the act in question is the correct one on a topic where that is very far from clear. Logic is useful precisely in determining whether or not an act is bad - what you've said is akin to dismissing the use of logic to resolve the trolley problem.

If you assume that every claim I make is intended as some sort of fundamental law and not as a heuristic which may or may not be useful in the current situation, then maybe so.

That's not how I intend the things I say to be taken, though. It is a monstrous leap from what I said to "all information ever put on the internet should be publicized as much as possible in all circumstances." I try to put enough caveats in my claims to make this clear - I'm sorry if I haven't done a good enough job of it.

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In a perfect world, people wouldn't spread information FIRST didn't want out there and would report the leak to the proper people. Had I found the leak firsthand, there are about a half-dozen employees at the company I could start Facebook messaging within seconds. Even if I didn't know them personally, the main phone number is not hard to come by.

Alas, we don't live in a perfect world and some people think spreading like this is a fun way to score imaginary internet cool points. Once it's out there, all us moderators can do is stop the bleeding. Yes, it means the people that first saw the thread are now in on the presumed scoop and can do as they please, but it does prevent that from spreading further on the venues we control.

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I am conflicted about information that is "out there". Some of it (the Pentagon Papers, for example) hurt someone but accomplished a major public good, and I am glad I read them. Salacious reports on celebrities love lives and costume changes do nothing good, I think, and I don't seek them out. Wikileaks sits somewhere in between, and I'm not sure what to think about the public value.

In this case, I don't know that any greater good is being accomplished, but neither do I think there is a lot of malice and poor sportsmanship being exhibited. We've got three more days to wait patiently, and that is what I intend to do.

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No, no it's not. Relaying information you know should not be pubic makes you just as culpable as the person who first found the information. The web allows you to do a lot of things you would not do normally. So how would it be different from a student who was given a test key from someone else and then posted it online? nothing. Everyone involved is guilty. We as community need to have certain absolutes. Disseminating leaks should not be tolerated by this community no matter how many degrees of separation there is from the original leak there is.

I know, I am not supposed to put my personal values on other people, but I believe there are certain lines that should never be crossed. They were crossed this preseason.

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This seems like an absolute claim that gives no room for adjustment based on the nature of the information and the context. Whether or not perpetuating information that "should not have been public" is a good or a bad thing, I think, depends critically on these things. There is no moral absolute here.

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I missed this in my first reply, so let's talk about this here.

I follow the auto industry a good bit, just the nature of my day job. When a new model is coming out, it's almost always the case that some publication leaks it out. Not even an accident, sometimes they're flaunting it or sometimes their print magazine hits the newsstands a smidgen early. In that case, the media embargo is fast crumbling and the auto makers will often just open up the flood gates with more information.

However, this is FIRST. Anyone that's done this dance, and any reasonable person that hadn't, would tell you that FIRST does not want Kickoff information published before Kickoff! Errors will happen, and it is on all of us who may see such errors to do the right thing. I fail to see how anyone can construe that the responsible thing to do here to do anything other than report it to the appropriate people with the company and then clam up until Kickoff to maintain alignment with FIRST's desired outcome as closely as possible.

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Seeing as someone else mentioned the original poster of the leak was new at it was his/her first post, it's entirely possible that they didn't know or think that it was a leak. They could have been new to FIRST and possibly thought that it was another hint.

I'm not saying that they did; I nor anyone else could know what they were thinking. But it's something you have to consider.

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I was initially disagreeing with you, but I find that analogy to be pretty accurate. The only difference is that FRC is essentially "graded on a curve", so it's actually more fair to release it to everyone rather than just keep it to oneself and thereby break the curve.
That being said, I do agree with you that it should not have been released. The optimal course of action would have been to keep silent (even from one's own team) until kickoff, and report to FIRST immediately. Obviously it is impossible to stop oneself from thinking about it, but in ultimately it makes very little difference if one person is given a small hint and a few days to think about it beforehand.

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If you are referring to those who continued to post the "leak" after they were requested not to, than I will agree with you. That is disrespectful.

If you are referring to those who originally found the "leak", I disagree with you. Whoever found the "leak" did not know if it was legitimate or not. Just look at all the "Game Hint?" threads that appear each year, after something Dave said, Frank wrote, or a gut feeling Bob has. It's exciting, especially for younger students, to think they have information to share with the community. The only difference between this and the many "Game Hint?" threads is this may have been real.

I think it may be best for this discussion to be put on pause until after kickoff. I think any discussion will be difficult until everyone is able to be fully informed on the situation.

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Oh god that coupled with this degree of heated debate scary thought. I would hate my first post to bring this much flak in from an honest mistake. To sit down at a table full of wise men and then first words out of your mouth to start a fire storm...
Its not that you aren't welcome its that you got off on the wrong foot and I truly hope none of the strong opinions on this thread turn students away from this wonderful resource just because they feel like they will draw heat for making a mistake.

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Just to clarify I wasn't agreeing with either and tbh I wish that this whole situation never happened. I only wanted to set some facts straight as there is definitely a different thought process that occurs in posting the info originally and in wanting something already told to some to remain public. Whether either is right is, as with all moral debates, an opinion. People aren't going to agree (and shouldn't expect too :D )

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I would just like to say, thank you to the moderators who removed the leaked information. I'm not an active poster on Chief Delphi, but lately I've been periodically browsing through the game hint discussion thread, to see what ideas people are throwing around. Kickoff is very exciting for me, and the complete lack of knowledge is part of that. If by chance I had happened to see the leaked info, it would have hurt that experience irreparably.

I think the people who are arguing that "once it's public, it's public" and that it's futile to try to suppress it are missing the point: many people don't want to see leaked information. And when I'm on a site like Chief Delphi, I assume that I won't see that kind of information. If an episode of a TV show I like is leaked, I know that I can easily find the leak if I look for it. But I also trust that the sites I frequent will not link to that information, not because they believe they can suppress or un-leak it, but for the sake of visitors who don't want to see leaked information. We can and should be able to have the same experience that we would if nothing had leaked at all, and seeing the leaked information splattered everywhere would ruin that. I expect, as a matter of course, for a massively-influential, semi-official site, such as Chief Delphi, to have a policy of not showing any leaks or linking to them. I'm glad to see that the moderators here live up to that standard and appreciate the responsibility that comes with moderating such a prominent site.

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The original poster of the leak mentioned in the post that he/she noticed something. Then asked if it's ever been done like that before. It was a very innocent post of information and a question. The poster DID NOT post anything to the likes of calling it a leak, hidden information, or the likes.

Knowing the leaked information, no one could figure much out. It would only stir up the imagination more. There is no way that anything major about the game could be figured out to give anyone an advantage.

Deleting the threads was the choice of the moderators/administrators, I may not agree for circumstantial reasons, but I respect it. Just because it was deleted, does not mean that it was posted as a "HEY ALL HERE'S A LEAK" thread.

This thread has turned very sour and those of you who are adults should be ashamed about the uneducated judgements you are dishing out publically. Students frequent here and you're supposed set an example. If you want to bicker, do it in a PM, email, or phone conversation. I hope this thread gets deleted, it has gone down the wrong road and is a very poor example of the values of FIRST.

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This point was mentioned early in the discussion but I believe that it has been nearly forgotten amidst debate on the morality of spreading leaks. While this is an important discussion to have in case of future, more serious leaks, I believe there is something more pertinent and, most importantly, positive about this situation.

That is that the information that was leaked, whether it was real or fake, offers little to no considerable advantage to anyone. I saw it and know quite a few people who have also seen it. I spent possibly a minute looking it over, and then went back to finishing my college applications. None of the people I know have put more thought into it than they have into actual game hints.

I don't seriously believe anyone is going to spend the coming of a new year in the shop prototyping and designing off of incomplete information that may mean different things based on the actual game, and may or may not be true.

My 2c.

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Just as an observation:

I noticed in this thread that there really seem to be two different perceptions of FIRST as an organization.

On one end there is a "the small town" or "small company" perception of FIRST, where people feel a real give and take with FIRST HQ and see FIRST HQ in a very personal light.

On the other end there is a "big city view" or "corporate" of FIRST. The relationship with FIRST is much less personal. This view sees FIRST HQ as the organization that releases the game rules, runs worlds, and that's about it.

I wonder where the position on this spectrum of an "average team" is and where it will shift as FIRST continues to grow.

Again, this is pretty irrelevant to the main topic of the thread (though so is much of the debate on this thread anyways). It's just something I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed it as well.

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Agreed. I feel sorry for the poster, who is now being scrutinized by, to quote another post I saw earlier
We don't know what they were thinking, it is entirely possible there was no ill intent behind the post, and just something someone found and wanted to share with the community. Consider this: if they really wanted to get an advantage, why would they even post it rather than keeping it to themselves?

This thread wasn't even originally about the poster/leak themselves, it was about the removal of the posts by the moderators. I don't understand exactly how this became a trial by jury. I think it's in everyone's best interest to forget this, let the mods handle it, and enjoy our few remaining days until Kickoff.

EDIT: I was informed that the leak was posted to social media as well, where it could really spread like wildfire, as opposed to somewhere like CD where everyone has access and is able to discuss things. My opinion has definitely changed a bit...

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Quoted for all the truths

Well this is concerning now that it seems to be stated that someone who wanted to participate in the learning process of FIRST robotics just brought moms home made ribs to the vegan picnic. As mentors and coaches we have a major impact on those who we teach and we need to remember that our actions in the pit, on the internet, or even in a classroom all have weight. As someone who has worked summer camps I stand behind all my actions because they are what I believe in. That is not to say I am right all the time, that is to say I am passionate about what I believe in. Yet those emotions and opinions I am passionate are not allowed to stop kids who signed up for a sports camp to have fun. The same goes as a mentor for robotics.
I am allowed to have opinions, and thoughts, and beliefs. But not for a single second would I want those emotions to stop someone from learning because that is selfish.

I don't care if none of that makes sense at this point cause in all honesty I am getting upset and I need to step back.
In the end the most important point I want to get through is that those aren't just random pixels on your screen forming words. Those are the thoughts and opinions of another human being, and they should be respect, regardless of failure or success human beings deserve respect.

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I feel bad this happen, but it happen. CD mods did the right thing, but I think they are fighting a losing battle.

I wouldn't be surprised if FIRST announces something about it soon. It didn't take long for an old hack like myself to figure it out (but have told no one). I can only assume it is spreading through back channels amongst the teams that choose to keep themselves informed. So now it is an advantage for those teams. And those that aren't as informed will be even more at a disadvantage. Just what we need now, more inequity.

And if you don't think it is an advantage, I know many FIRSTers that don't have school this week that would love to CAD up some ideas.

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Delphi always bubbles down to "trial by jury". You have a forum full of people who lead teams who have differing opinions, and they're all trying to be "more-GP" than each other.

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At this point what I find most disappointing that individuals and teams have taken to other public mediums of communication in an effort to further spread this leak. I understand that people have different ideas when it comes to the free flow of information, and everyone absolutely has the right to say what they want via non-moderated forms of communication, but I guess I'm just disappointed the members of this community would ignore FIRST's wishes to keep their confidential information private. I know that this was inevitable, nevertheless it's still disappointing.

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I think what it boils down to is that people reposting the leak don't view the information as "their [FIRST's]" information anymore.

I'm not commenting on whether that viewpoint is wrong/right, but it certainly is a understandable opinion IMHO.

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Yup. It's a viewpoint I disagree with, but I can understand how a reasonable person would take that stance.

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On the subject of people knowingly doing anything wrong with the information, we do all need to remember that FIRST is full of people which means they won't all view the core values the same or even care about them at all. Being on a FIRST team does not mean someone will be, or even want to be an upstanding exsemplery human just as much as it means not being on a team doesn't mean someone won't display what we call GP.