Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

I would rather not give a flying toaster what people think. These are, after all, the same "everyone" that think any robot that isn't a zip tied together piece of trash is "mentor built" and who can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that teams go to multiple events. In short, "everyone" thinks a lot of other stupid things, what's one more?


In conclusion, I'll reiterate, it's a stupid rule that isn't enforced because a) it's impossible to enforce b) it's useless because experience and knowledge >>>>>> a finished design not specific to the game needs.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

I'm not going to respond further beyond reiterating that I said "everyone involved" not "everyone".

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

As for as the Team is concerned, the LRI is the final word. If he (her) asks for proof, you need to provide proof to his satisfaction. Much the same as documenting a pressure switch is legal. A complete refusal would at the very least delay your inspection sticker.

Go back and read Jon Statis's post of what an reasonable LRI would do.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Cool, and you know what, I'm willing to share that knowledge. I'll do a blog post on it, or a whitepaper, or you can ask. I might not release the code, why? Because it's not clear or it's optimized for performance not readability and releasing it could make the concept seem harder than it is. Or maybe I use a library that has a license that prohibits me from releasing it. Or any of a handful of other reasons.

Here's an example: I've got an update to a spreadsheet I use for figuring out strategies, I've released the original but I'm not releasing the new one, know why? Because I don't know how the changes will work and don't want anyone who doesn't understand the inner workings to use it and get wrong information.

Course, it's a moot point for 125 software, we're open source from Kickoff.

Your confusing a care of showing folks "HEY IM COMPLIANT WITH THIS RULE"... "oh, nobody cares" with not wanting to teach people stuff.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Remember that rule says designs, not component. You seem to be treating the PCB as the only think you're reusing, whereas I think you're reusing a lot more.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Well, this sure is a healthy attitude to have towards your fellow FRC participants.

You know, you might want to step back, read your posts, and think about why people seem to think you're saying things that you're not. I strongly suspect it's not because "everyone" else can't read.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Man this all escalated quickly. I believe the concept of level playing field through equal access to resources is great but this falls in line with another major debate that will be happening soon.
This is like bag and tag in my mind.
In all honesty if you make something you should be proud of it and if you share it in the right environment the only thing that will happen is it will improve. You might get feedback or find a typo, my question is why wouldn't you want to share what you know or did?

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

That's not how it works. If I look at your robot, don't recognize a pneumatic component and ask you for the data sheet, you can't just claim it's legal and not provide me with the proof that it is. If you try, I'm going to tell you there are two options - provide the requested materials, or remove it. Without doing one of those, you won't get your inspection sticker, plain and simple. The same is true with this rule - if I ask to see the posted design, you need to show it to me or remove the item from your robot. Otherwise, you won't get your sticker.

There's absolutely nothing in the rulebook that says the burden of proof is on the inspector - the burden of proof is on the team. That's one of the reasons why the inspectors spend so much time talking to the team, asking them questions, and getting them to talk about the robot. Otherwise, we'd just walk up, look all over the robot, and either give you a sticker or tell you something is illegal. That's not how inspection is supposed to work.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

I guess I need to re-read the rules. Oops.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

There is always tension in FRC between extremes. Engineering is always going to borrow and modify ideas; I suppose the extremes in this case are: "don't create (or learn) anything in the off-season", and "we will design and use anything we want in the off-season, because it's a stupid rule that no one can enforce anyway". It reminds me a bit of the student vs. mentor build argument, or the Ri3D debate about whether students should come up with their own solutions or learn things from a video.

I think that FIRST is quite clear about what its goals and intentions are for all of these situations. The problems come in when people (usually through inexperience or ignorance) misinterpret those goals and intentions. In this case, we should have our students strive to build a shared knowledge base in the off-season (shared within the team, and with the larger FRC community), while not giving themselves an unfair advantage during build season. They should share what they've designed, as far as it's progressed, in whatever manner they can (they are, after all, high school students, and not professionals), if they think it's worth using. And we should police ourselves, rather than flaunt the rules knowing that they are essentially unenforceable. It would ruin the overall experience for us all if we all have to go around suspicious of each other all the time.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

What constitutes a design?

We often mockup things in 2d as a sketch, and never detail in 3d until we commit to a concept.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Good question. We often design entire components, subsystems, and robots in 2D. Do we have a design or just a bunch of sketches?

We can make a robot from them, but I doubt anyone else could.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

My team does almost all of it's detailed design in 3D, so I wouldn't know how detailed your team's sketches are. However, in my opinion, if someone can fabricate the device into a mechanism, then it might be a good idea to post it.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

That's not quite what he's asking.

His (and my) point is that design is a different thing to different people. While 67 can fabricate a quality machine from 2d sketches, many other groups would need more documentation and drafting.

So, what are you required to post? The design you actually used? or a more refined package that allows everyone to fabricate off it.

The problem with holding you to an external standard, is there is always a better idiot and it would be impossible to publish something that any team could use without putting undue burden on the designing teams in terms of extra work.

Re: FRC Blog - Some Tidbits Before Kickoff
 

Since I think it is fair to assume a majority of designs used for any given year are developed within the 6 week build period, am I responsible for proving that if someone called it into question? The questions so far have been how to prove off-season designs were publicly posted, but what about proving designs weren't from the off-season and therefore would have to have been posted?